I was thinking the other day when issuing BDUs to new CADETS. The thought came as the new cadets were asking about where to get the patches, nametape et al.
I had remarked that several teachers and others were sponsoring cadets for such items if they would politely write a respectul letter asking for said support and aide.
While I was saying this I began to calculate the costs involved to cadets. While not a bank breaking amount it is an expense (patches, shipping and sewing).
I got to thinking about two "axioms" that were running in my lexicon of positions...
1) traditional nature of Wing Patches and the importance of the US Flag Patch
2) my defense of the WING patch on BDUs and future CAP uniforms.
I found, to some degree, that the two were in a bit of a conflit.
Thus, I'm reversing my potion on the Flag and Wing patch en re new CAP uniforms.
I think the use of Nametapes, CAP tape, rank and a squadron/group patch on the pocket is an uncluttered enough look that provides for minimum cost.
To keep some modicum of my original position intact, I will support traditional squadron patches, the idea of CAP grade, avation/GT bages and the "Pluto Patch" worn above the name (although I might support a redesign of said patch).
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 16, 2008, 05:02:25 PM
I think the use of Nametapes, CAP tape, rank and a squadron/group patch on the pocket is an uncluttered enough look that provides for minimum cost.
To keep some modicum of my original position intact, I will support traditional squadron patches, the idea of CAP grade, avation/GT bages and the "Pluto Patch" worn above the name (although I might support a redesign of said patch).
With that logic, don't need unit patches (optional) or the Pluto patch either... Or even aviation badges and specialty insignia for that matter.
Could get by with just tapes and grade.
If your cadets are that hard up, then they probably don't
need BDUs anyway.
I'm sorry, but cost, especially the relatively small cost for the insignia, is not the way you define your uniforms.
I agree on the desire to tone-down the Christmas trees, but not the reasoning.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 16, 2008, 05:21:42 PM
I'm sorry, but cost, especially the relatively small cost for the insignia, is not the way you define your uniforms.
The USAF did just that with the ABU.
Quote from: MIKE on October 16, 2008, 05:16:33 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 16, 2008, 05:02:25 PM
I think the use of Nametapes, CAP tape, rank and a squadron/group patch on the pocket is an uncluttered enough look that provides for minimum cost.
To keep some modicum of my original position intact, I will support traditional squadron patches, the idea of CAP grade, avation/GT bages and the "Pluto Patch" worn above the name (although I might support a redesign of said patch).
With that logic, don't need unit patches (optional) or the Pluto patch either... Or even aviation badges and specialty insignia for that matter. Could get by with just tapes and grade.
If your cadets are that hard up, then they probably don't need BDUs anyway.
I've changed my mind on the position, the money is only a contributing factor among many.
ABUs are coming before long. The position on BDUs is to lock it down till that happens - no more changes.
With ABUs... I'm quite certain the flag & general ES (pluto or T-34) patch will not be there. I've seen alternate high level proposals that would:
1) include wg/unit patches;
2) have no wg/unit patches, just tapes & two spec badges above the branch tape;
3) same as #2 but cadets only wear:
a) unit (mandatory)
b) special activity (optional)
NOTE: The NCSA patch to include rockers on top for extra/special stuff like ranger, staff, instructor, advanced, etc (no special bling whatsoever).
#3 was/is my proposal. I have no idea what the final determination will be that goes to CAP leadership.
NOTE: I'm NOT at liberty to discuss anything about any underlying proposal I may or may not have in theory maybe but probably not though I can't confirm that have seen. :angel:
My logic though on that proposal is to have a clean professional appearance (bonus that it's cheaper). I favor unit patches on cadets as they're often at joint activities where we need to figure out who they belong to.
The key is once the proposals are complete and sent to HQ USAF, what they decide to allow since the ABU is their uniform. Since they prohibit any patches on USAF ABUs, its possible they will keep the same policy for CAP. Or, they may allow the patches as a further distinction of the 2 uniforms. We just won't know until they decide which is why there are the options.
I didn't even know there were multiple options being presented. Shows where I left off in the proposal formulation process. ;D
My point being though, BDUs are as is for the forseeable future. The issue of patches or not, and which ones/where is being addressed for ABUs & the decision is above our paygrade.
Quote from: DNall on October 16, 2008, 05:51:32 PM
3) same as #2 but cadets only wear:
a) unit (mandatory)
b) special activity (optional)
I couldn't care less about NCSA,
lose 'em, but why would unit insignia only be mandatory for cadets?
So other SMs at group activities couldn't tell which cadets you belong to. ;D
If we go with utility, name, rank and organizational nametapes are a must. The US Flag is somewhat less than necessary since we do not deploy to foreign shores (I will grant creedence to the "in support of our troops" argument). Wing patches are already absent from the BDUs in many Wings (mine still requires them), this creates a less than ideal condition.
Badges are necessary to a degree, I would leave them on if the remained the small type in use. An ES patch of redesigned destintion (smaller for one) over the organizational tape would not be out of line.
These other patches, activity and squadron, serve their fucntion as identifiers...I would keep Unit patches (under strict approval from WING) since they are local morale items paid for, designed and produced "locally." I have seen good results from the generation of such an item.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 16, 2008, 06:53:57 PM
Quote from: DNall on October 16, 2008, 05:51:32 PM
3) same as #2 but cadets only wear:
a) unit (mandatory)
b) special activity (optional)
I couldn't care less about NCSA, lose 'em, but why would unit insignia only be mandatory for cadets?
NCSA patches are a compromise. It's cadets ONLY after all. A lot of them just go to those things so they can wear the "I'm special" bling, not for the experience. If I can compromise & get rid of berets, orange hats, etc & keep it to a simple patch with rockers to designate their mumbo-jumbo, that's good enough for me.
As far as unit patches.... cadets are often at joint activities. There's lots of cadets & a handful of adults. I know real quick where the adults are from. And if there's a problem with them, we'll have a talk and that'll be the end of it. I need to be able to see who the cadets belong to, and ensure they understand there are longer-term consequences for their behavior.
It's a personal call though, I'd be good with no patches too. I could see it going either way.
As far as the GES patch, that's a giant funny looking thing that's meaningless. If you're Es qualified, that almost universally means GTM or aircrew, both of which have a badge. I guess you could get something like MSA enroute to that, but you don't need a patch for it.
I've been talking about getting embroidered versions of the other specialty badges too (still limit two over the tape), which may also involve writing the post-ICS mission quals into the spec tracks. Meaning for example: PAO tech requires MSA, sr requires MIO... so all the other specialties that aren't GT/aircrew would be covered by a badge also if you don't choose to do both of those. That's another topic though.
Quote from: DNall on October 16, 2008, 07:57:34 PM
As far as the GES patch, that's a giant funny looking thing that's meaningless. If you're Es qualified, that almost universally means GTM or aircrew, both of which have a badge. I guess you could get something like MSA enroute to that, but you don't need a patch for it.
Ditto. Goofy (literally) and garish. My guess is at some point it was to give a patch to GES-lifers, because that's usually when they go on, right after that first qual, and they usually come off after you're BTDT a little.
I'm for ditching all but CAP and name tape, squadron patch and specialty badges.
/edit/ keep grade on the collar also/edit/
Actually my old unit used the Goofy patch as the basis for our squadron patch although this was before they decided to make it the GES patch. We got our design off of an old, old ES manual we found at our local ESDA building. This was in the early 80's. The squadron has since deactivated but for a while we wore both patches and referred to the set as our "dog pound". The patch as approved was actually the senior member version which had red thread in the eyes to represent blood shot eyes.
I like my wing patch, and would keep it on BDUs, but I don't think any patches should be on the ABU.
Nametape, CAP tape, rank, and ES badges. The patch is utterly unecessary and looks rediculous IMNSHO, it should go. The flag patch should go too.
We are all Americans, I think the other Americans we work with know that, so why do we need to display what country we are from? I love the US, but there are better ways to be patriotic than wearing a patch on your shoulder.
I strongly favor going clean with the uniform, people who have been to NCSAs get a ribbon, thats all they should need; its the experience, not the bling, that should be the priority.
I could deal with squadron patches, but there has to be some financial support to the squadrons if that were to happen. Designing and having patches made is not a cheap process.
I exercise my option to not wear optional patches except for the Wing patch. Never quite understood why they were so bad all of a sudden that we didn't want them worn. I can understand taking them off the blues as they were a pain on that shirt.
Less = More
Name/CAP nametape, skill badges, rank.
Saves money and the hassle of getting items sewn. Not to mention it looks better.