Why aren't the Milestones proctored on a computer?

Started by Майор Хаткевич, December 13, 2012, 08:40:40 PM

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Майор Хаткевич

As I'm sitting here thinking about it, I'm wondering why we decided to keep them all on paper.

As an ATO I have to sit there and watch the cadets take the test anyway. Why couldn't NHQ make secured USB that plugs into any machine, pulls 50 Qs out of a question bank, and the cadet takes the test, gets his results, and we can even throw in a printable reference sheet for what they had missed!

Too much tech?

I was thinking making it online, with an ATO/TO required to sign the cadet into the system, but I'm aware that internet is still spotty for many units out there.

A thumbstick, secured in a similar fashion, but basically being an internal program on the drive, would avoid connection issues while still maintaining test security and modernizing the process.


krnlpanick

While I am all for modernizing CAP as much as humanly possible - I think that the cost of moving to computer administered testing in this case I think far outweighs the benefits of doing so; at least in the way that it has been suggested. A more cost efficient way to modernize the process would be to require a dual authentication on the existing LMS in eServices. First a cadet logs in to eServices, selects LMS, then selects the Milestone test that he would like to take. Next the SQ/CC or delegate must enter their CAPID and password into the system to allow the cadet to begin taking the test. This ensures that the test is still taken in the manner expected while leveraging existing technology available to us to minimize the implementation cost.

Just MHO
2nd Lt. Christopher A. Schmidt, CAP

Майор Хаткевич

Agreed, the issue again is internet availability at the unit.

I could fire up my phone and have someone take a test, but that's not an option for everyone.

krnlpanick

Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 13, 2012, 08:48:19 PM
Agreed, the issue again is internet availability at the unit.

I could fire up my phone and have someone take a test, but that's not an option for everyone.

That is one area of modernization I think should be enforced - I believe that all squadrons should have some type of internet access available to them. Even if that means getting a supplement from NHQ to offset the cost of doing so I think it is well worth the expense. Squadrons that cannot get internet due to financial reasons should have to option of acquiring discount 3g/4g internet through NHQ.

Again, just MHO.
2nd Lt. Christopher A. Schmidt, CAP

MSG Mac

That would actually be a good recommendation for Cadet Programs. I'm sure the IT people at National could design a program when theyfinish their current projects.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

MSG Mac

Quote from: krnlpanick on December 13, 2012, 09:01:46 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on December 13, 2012, 08:48:19 PM
Agreed, the issue again is internet availability at the unit.

I could fire up my phone and have someone take a test, but that's not an option for everyone.

That is one area of modernization I think should be enforced - I believe that all squadrons should have some type of internet access available to them. Even if that means getting a supplement from NHQ to offset the cost of doing so I think it is well worth the expense. Squadrons that cannot get internet due to financial reasons should have to option of acquiring discount 3g/4g internet through NHQ.

Again, just MHO.

National had an Internet supplement program that nstopped about a year ago, because no one was using it.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

JeffDG

Quote from: MSG Mac on December 13, 2012, 09:03:43 PM
That would actually be a good recommendation for Cadet Programs. I'm sure the IT people at National could design a program when theyfinish their current projects.
LOL

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: MSG Mac on December 13, 2012, 09:03:43 PM
That would actually be a good recommendation for Cadet Programs. I'm sure the IT people at National could design a program when theyfinish their current projects.

In terms of doing it on eServices, they basically just need to add the tests and an extra layer of security.

Eclipse

Quote from: krnlpanick on December 13, 2012, 09:01:46 PMThat is one area of modernization I think should be enforced - I believe that all squadrons should have some type of internet access available to them. Even if that means getting a supplement from NHQ to offset the cost of doing so I think it is well worth the expense. Squadrons that cannot get internet due to financial reasons should have to option of acquiring discount 3g/4g internet through NHQ.

And that money would come from where?  Exactly?

Not to mention that Hooterville composite might not have any broadband options, nor a permanent place to run wires.

I'm all for modernization, and for most units it could be accommodated on some level or another, but we don't need more unfunded mandates, and NHQ's pockets are down to the lint right now just like everyone else.

With that said, some of the wireless broadband providers officer service to 501c(3)s for free or greatly reduced cost.  I also ran across
this company recently, that offers "free" service if you buy (lease) their access point - the hitch being that they are hopeful (actually the whole
business model) is that the user goes over 500mb per month - nothing for a normal user, but just for meeting nights probably doable.
http://www.freedompop.com/

"That Others May Zoom"

krnlpanick

Quote from: Eclipse on December 13, 2012, 09:15:00 PM
And that money would come from where?  Exactly?

Not to mention that Hooterville composite might not have any broadband options, nor a permanent place to run wires.

I'm all for modernization, and for most units it could be accommodated on some level or another, but we don't need more unfunded mandates, and NHQ's pockets are down to the lint right now just like everyone else.

With that said, some of the wireless broadband providers officer service to 501c(3)s for free or greatly reduced cost.  I also ran across
this company recently, that offers "free" service if you buy (lease) their access point - the hitch being that they are hopeful (actually the whole
business model) is that the user goes over 500mb per month - nothing for a normal user, but just for meeting nights probably doable.
http://www.freedompop.com/

Fair points Eclipse, and perhaps I should have been more clear when I was speaking about discounted service - there are options both as a 501(c)3 and as a DoD "Contractor" that could be open to us to acquire said internet access at a greatly reduced cost on a national level. The trick is that someone at national has to start that process and negotiate the terms. I would also contest that the situations where getting internet access for a squadron is simply *NOT* possible are very few and far between. If we can get cheap internet to some tiny village in the middle of nowhere in some third world country that no one has heard of there is no reason that we can not get it to our cadets. In the worst case scenario, if your squadron is really in that remote of a location you still have options in town libraries and schools - negotating times to use the library or school library as a "testing center" could be an option as well. The real problem is not the availability itself but the lack of creativity and initiative to really seek it out in most cases I would guess.

2nd Lt. Christopher A. Schmidt, CAP

coudano

I'm sure you'll see all tests online, eventually.

The idea of not putting it online initially i'm sure, had to do with ensuring that it was close-book and proctored.
As some have pointed out, there are ways to deal with that (and those ways are already implemented on the Spaatz Exam, which is computer proctored)

Wheel of progress turns slow, patience :)

Eclipse

Quote from: krnlpanick on December 13, 2012, 09:23:16 PMThe real problem is not the availability itself but the lack of creativity and initiative to really seek it out in most cases I would guess.

No argument there.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Ah, but now we're going to the blame game, which is why I was all for the thumbstick idea.

NHQ writes the code. Authorized folks can download the software on a spare $5 stick. Works with or w/o internet.

TJT__98

I think the reason is because they want to keep the milestones closed book, and if they were online they could say closed book but not enforce it.
C/MSgt
Wright Award 21322

Cool Mace

Quote from: TJT__98 on December 13, 2012, 09:31:55 PM
I think the reason is because they want to keep the milestones closed book, and if they were online they could say closed book but not enforce it.

Aux already covered how it could be an online secured test.

I would like to see them online myself. I think it will happen, all in due time.
CAP is what you make of it. If you don't put anything in to it, you won't get anything out of it.
Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
The cookies and donuts were a lie.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: TJT__98 on December 13, 2012, 09:31:55 PM
I think the reason is because they want to keep the milestones closed book, and if they were online they could say closed book but not enforce it.

This would happen at the unit as it does currently. Just on a PC.

jimmydeanno

When the idea of online testing was proposed, there was significant backlash from the CAP community (mostly non-cadet program officers), who said that going online and open-book was watering down the program and that cadets wouldn't learn what they needed to.  The compromise for this was to keep the milestones closed-book and on paper, proctored locally.

The majority of CPOs that I've talk to are in favor of online milestone awards (I am), but there is still a select group of people that used to be cadets or want to involve themselves with cadets (without having a vested interest in them), that are still against that move.  Hopefully, the resistance will die as those people move on.

The CAP world is an interesting community.  There are people who have nothing better to do than critique the use of Gandhi in the leadership books because "He isn't Christian and this is America."  So, you can imagine the feedback that comes in from moves like online testing.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Eclipse

Quote from: jimmydeanno on December 13, 2012, 09:46:21 PM
When the idea of online testing was proposed, there was significant backlash from the CAP community (mostly non-cadet program officers), who said that going online and open-book was watering down the program and that cadets wouldn't learn what they needed to.  The compromise for this was to keep the milestones closed-book and on paper, proctored locally.

I frankly still feel this way - online / open book is a test of your Google skills, not your knowledge.  As least having them as practical
tests at the milestone level means someone might have to learn something at some point.

"That Others May Zoom"

johnnyb47

How about a hybrid solution?
PDF's of the individual test booklets opened on a squadron computer and an all purpose answer sheet onto which the cadet can write their answers?
No test storage required, no internet required, answer sheet still in hand for hand grading.
Just make sure the PDF's are secured on the testing officers or squadrons laptop.

Capt
Information Technology Officer
Communications Officer


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Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on December 13, 2012, 09:50:52 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on December 13, 2012, 09:46:21 PM
When the idea of online testing was proposed, there was significant backlash from the CAP community (mostly non-cadet program officers), who said that going online and open-book was watering down the program and that cadets wouldn't learn what they needed to.  The compromise for this was to keep the milestones closed-book and on paper, proctored locally.

I frankly still feel this way - online / open book is a test of your Google skills, not your knowledge.  As least having them as practical
tests at the milestone level means someone might have to learn something at some point.

That would still happen.

Having come back to active status after a few years of online testing, I can already say that there is a cultural change in the cadet ranks. IMO not for the better.