Paid leave for CAP duty for federal workers

[RiverAux]

There seems to be a growing trend at the state level allow CAP members leave from their job for CAP duty.  The details vary by state with some granting paid leave, others unpaid, some extending it to all workers, while some restrict it to state government workers.

What do you think about granting 10-15 days of paid leave per year to federal government employees for CAP duty? 

Given that we've have extreme difficulty getting Congress to pass a bill that does no more than require that a study be done looking at how useful CAP might be to DHS, a bill such as I propose might be even more difficult.  However, given the state-level examples out there, it shouldn't be hard to show demonstrate the effectiveness of such legislation. 

Although there are various ways such a program could be implemented, I would suggest that the backup paperwork authorizing such leave include some sort of form signed by the Wing Commander and the State Director (since one could argue that such leave is an expenditure of federal funds and that is one of the things that SDs are supposed to be monitoring). 

[davidsinn]

I wouldn't support paid leave for federal employees. I would however support unpaid leave.

[blackrain]

I would really like to spend my 2 weeks of annual Guard training flying for the CAP. Beats being out in the field.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with paid leave for Federal Employees as long as their primary employer signs off on it.

[Ranger75]

My second career is is that of a Federal civilian employee with the Defense Intelligence Agency.  Although specific legislation permitting paid leave for CAP activities may not have been put forward, DIA's leave policy does encompass an employee's voluntary participation in emergency services missions.  The Agency's written leave policy grants authority to senior officials within the organization to authorize first responders up to five-days of paid administrative leave/year to participate in actual or state-sponsored emergency response training each calendar year.  I have used this provision twice.  The first opportunity was to participate in a search for a missing aircraft that extended over five days.  Later, I used the same provision to attend a four-day session with FEMA to certify IS 300/400. 

Another provision of the leave policy speaks to support of "civil defense" activities, again providing for five days of administrative leave each year.  I made use of this clause to fly to Langley AFB and participate in a series of meeting related to CAP's support of NORAD-sponsored air defense exercises.  I have shared my "find" with other Wing members, who also work in the Federal structure.  Upon reading the specific provisions of their own agencies' leave policy, several found similar provisions.  Others found nothing. 

I reviewed CPO guidance to Federal agencies and found that each is granted significant latitude in implementing employee leave.  I would suggest that members working for Uncle Sam check out their own circumstances.  You may find, like me, that the authority is there, but that it has to be brought to the attention of their supervisors and HR types because it is not commonly used.  --  Regards

[RADIOMAN015]

My second career is is that of a Federal civilian employee with the Defense Intelligence Agency.  Although specific legislation permitting paid leave for CAP activities may not have been put forward, DIA's leave policy does encompass an employee's voluntary participation in emergency services missions.  The Agency's written leave policy grants authority to senior officials within the organization to authorize first responders up to five-days of paid administrative leave/year to participate in actual or state-sponsored emergency response training each calendar year. 

So than basically you aren't a volunteer if you are getting paid by your employer to participate in another organization's activities .   Again I don't know why any government agency should be granting anyone in CAP (or any other voluntary organization) "paid" time off for participating/supporting another agency's activity.  The average hard working  taxpayers have enough load on them already without this provision that is very costly perk that looks like a potential for abuse and lowers government employees productivity overall.

Additionally, those civilian government employees that are considered mission criticial or mission essential probably should be actively discouraged by their agency/direct supervisor about participating in any emergency services organization that has the potential of taking the employee away from their "emergency" job.

I know in the private sector we hire people that we expect to be on the job every day performing what they were trained and paid to do.    In this economy we have to do more with less, but apparently some local, state, & federal government agencies "don't get it" with these liberal policies
RM     

[a2capt]

Why should Federal employees be any different?

Either it's fairly applied to all, or none.

I too, support unpaid leave, but not paid leave.

Is it the "Federal" that some how makes them "better" than non-Federal employees?

Use an aircraft carrier for an example. Everyone's job is equally important. If someone doesn't do XXX it means someone else has to do it.

..and if you are in effect getting paid to be there, thats pretty cool. But .. the whole organization is structured on personal sacrifice for all intents. My tax dollars already pay for this whole endeavor. Why should my ability to get, and the cost of those government services, suffer?

[Ranger75]

Since a number of posts have questioned the appropriateness of Federal policy, I thought I'd post an extract of the the directive provided to Federal agencies by the U.S. Ofice of Personnel Management:

GENERAL. The Federal personnel system provides departments and agencies with considerable flexibility in scheduling hours of work and time off. Departments and agencies are encouraged to make appropriate use of this flexibility in responding to requests for changes in work schedules or time off to allow employees to engage in volunteer activities, while giving due consideration to the effect of the employee's absence or change in duty schedule on work operations and productivity.

Annual Leave -- When employees request annual leave to perform volunteer service, departments and agencies should be as accommodating as possible in reviewing and approving such requests consistent with regulations in 5 CFR part 630, subpart C, Annual Leave, and applicable collective bargaining agreements.

Leave Without Pay -- At the discretion of the agency, leave without pay (LWOP) may be granted to employees who wish to engage in volunteer activities during normal working hours. As with annual leave, OPM encourages departments and agencies, whenever possible, to act favorably upon requests by employees for LWOP to perform volunteer services. However, LWOP is appropriate for extended periods only if the employee is expected to return to his or her job at the end of the LWOP. Agencies should review their internal policies on LWOP and applicable collective bargaining agreements.

Compensatory Time Off -- Departments and agencies may approve requests from employees for compensatory time off in exchange for performing an equal amount of time in irregular or occasional overtime work. For employees under flexible work schedules, departments and agencies may approve employee requests for compensatory time off for both regularly scheduled and irregular or occasional overtime work.

Excused Absence (administrative leave) -- Each department or agency has discretion to excuse employees from their duties without loss of pay or charge to leave. OPM advises that the granting of excused absence for volunteer activities should be limited to those situations in which the employee's absence, in the department's or agency's determination, is not specifically prohibited by law and satisfies one or more of the following criteria: (1) the absence is directly related to the department or agency's mission; (2) the absence is officially sponsored or sanctioned by the head of the department or agency; (3) the absence will clearly enhance the professional development or skills of the employee in his or her current position; or (4) the absence is brief and is determined to be in the interest of the agency. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of each department or agency head to balance support for employees' volunteer activities with the need to ensure that employees' work requirements are fulfilled and that agency operations are conducted efficiently and effectively. Agencies should review their internal guidance on excused absence and applicable collective bargaining agreements.

[RRLE]

What do you think about granting 10-15 days of paid leave per year to federal government employees for CAP duty?

And who gets stuck and unpaid to do the work of the CAPer or any other volunteer while they are out playing Rescue Ronnie?

All of these paid/unpaid leave proposals seem to forget that the work still needs to get done and the person left behind and stuck doing it (almost always unpaid) is going to resent it and the Rescue Ronnie.

Second thought - if you think your are so insignificant that you can take 10-15 additional days off (paid or unpaid) without any harm to the organization, maybe your boss will discover you aren't needed at all. After all - you just built the case for him.

[RiverAux]

the person left behind and stuck doing it (almost always unpaid)

I'm not sure who these unpaid federal workers are that you're referring to. 

By the way, I'm totally fine with restricting this to Air Force assigned mission use.  In these cases there is a demonstrated federal interest and giving a federal worker the ability to respond makes absolute sense. 

[wingnut55]

I am always disturbed by anyone who thinks volunteers should not be paid by their employers for emergency response. Tens of thousands of Volunteer Firemen around the country leave work to fight a fire and are often  paid by their employer.

I get Paid by my county employer to serve my Country as a CAP member, Yes I am a Volunteer but I am a highly skilled member of CAP and I am an asset. I serve an average of 5 days per month and 4 days of CD every other month, and fly missions as needed.

I have only requested paid time for  5 days in three years. I do not abuse it and I do not use it for attending training. Giving up $300.00 per day is not an option for me or 99% of people.

The pay thing was in place in the 1950s,60s,70s,80s because both my parents were in CAP and as Federal Govt. employees they got paid time off for missions.

Stop complaining about something that has always been in place. Without it we would have been hamstrung for the last 70 years. I am sorry that this may be NEWS to many of you, but it is a good thing and having it recognized by State mandate is also a pat on our back, it gives us a better force modifier option to our Country.

Sadly like many things NATIONAL HQ will do nothing and it will get screwed up by CAP members who are Idiots and use it to take free vacation. That will suckalot of air for those of us who are responsible.

[RRLE]

I'm not sure who these unpaid federal workers are that you're referring to.

It isn't hard to figure out. While Rescue Ronnie is off having fun someone has to do his/her work. The boss tells 'left behind' to 'work smarter not harder' as he dumps Rescue Ronnie's work on 'left behind'. Of course no overtime is approved. In the case of a salaried worker, there is no overtime issue so 'left behind' will probably get stuck doing Rescue Ronnie's work on overtime for free.

Rescue Ronnie isn't going to be well liked or respected by the 'left behinds' who did his work while he regals them with stories of his alleged heroism on his 'mission'.

I worked for a large company that had one of these policies. I was asked by my manager to witness an exchange he had with an employee who requested one of these leaves.

The employee requested the leave verbally. The manager made the following points:


1. Put the request in writing;
2. Either state in writing his job did not have to be during the absence (the look on the employee's face let you know he knew the outcome of writing that) or name the people who could do his job in his absence (similar look)
3. attach to the request a copy of a current membership card and a letter from the employee's volunteer superior that the employee was both requested and required for the assignment. The letter had to be on the non-profit's letterhead.

The manager also informed Rescue Ronnie that the manager would inform the employees named in 2 above that Rescue Ronnie had recommended them to do Ronnie's job in his absence.

The manager never heard from Resuce Ronnie about the matter again. Problem solved.

[lordmonar]

Okay y'all Let's put on your logic hats for a second.

The CAP is the offical auxillary of the USAF a government function....so the government is giving paid time off to its employees so that they can support another part of the government (CAP on a real mission is a part of the government).

Where's the problem?

The taxs payers are not out anything.

As for the "rescue ronnie" and his overworked co-workers....how is that any different then when rescue ronnie takes his 30 days paid vacation?  It is not like ronnie is taking off for a long time.  It is usually just 2-5 days.

[RiverAux]

I trust CAP members to know when it makes sense to use such leave and when it would leave their primary employer in the lurch or when it would really hurt their career.  I think the CAP member would know that its not a good idea to go chase an ELT on the day of a major presentation to his boss's boss's boss.   On the other hand, I would hope the boss would realize that having the CAP member help respond to a major disaster might be a slightly better use of their time than taking routine monthly inventory (or something equivalent). 

It would always be up to the CAP member to make the call about whether the importance of the CAP mission outweighs the importance of his job and know when discretion is the better part of valor, and let the CAP mission go. 

Having requests for such leave in writing and be backed up by paperwork signed by the wing commander and state director (as I suggested earlier) would be the procedure I recommend to avoid the situations RRLE described.

[heliodoc]

Follow Ranger75's example...

That is the law as far as Federal workers go.  Not every Fed manager is going to see volunteer activities as Rescue Ronnie see the validity to so.  Some Fed agencies do not even know what CAP does and some may not have that "positive attitude" toward CAP as everyone here would love to see

So it is not as simple as lordmonar's application of a "logic hat."

Taxpayers not out anything?  Right... some government projects have deadlines like regular industry, but some here may just think Guv doesn't.  So taxpayers may not be "out anything" but there are projects with some serious work that might require Rescue Ronnie to be in place, but RR may have an understanding manager.

OPM rules pretty well trump Rescue Ronnies out there and usually Rescue Ronnie to take AL, LWOP, or COMP

Why get anything more special for CAP?  Rest of us in Fed Govt had use these different vacation days to get time off.

So go ahead approach Congress and OPM on CAP volunteer time off.....  don't hold your breath or expect any action any time soon

[RRLE]

how is that any different then when rescue ronnie takes his 30 days paid vacation?

There are several differences. Among them:

1. Every worker gets a vacation. Not every worker gets a 'rescue vacation' either because they don't want to volunteer or because they cannot for various family, medical etc reasons. Face it - Rescue Ronnie is getting an extra 2 weeks off the job for something he/she enjoys doing.

2. Vacations are usually scheduled in advance. Every company I worked for required at least 2 and some 4 weeks advance notice. Rescue Ronnie and his request is usually going to be last minute with no time to prepare to cover the position.

better use of their time than taking routine monthly inventory (or something equivalent). 


And who are you going to stick with that less then glorious assignment so Rescue Ronnie can go have fun? It is always going to be more fun to play the hero then do the more inglorious aspects of your job - it is much better to stick a co-worker with those duties and then show off your new bling when you come back from your mission. I'm sure his/her co-workers will love Rescue Ronnie for that.

The CAP is the offical auxillary of the USAF a government function....so the government is giving paid time off to its employees so that they can support another part of the government (CAP on a real mission is a part of the government).

Where's the problem?

As someone else already mentioned - if someone is paying you to be on a mission, you really aren't a volunteer anymore. It doesn't matter who is footing the payroll. Volunteers are by definition unpaid. In effect, policies such as those advocated convert CAP into a paid reserve force not a volunteer force.

[Ned]

When I was a fairly junior police officer in my department, I certainly felt some minor resentment from my teammates when schedules had to be juggled for my National Guard weekends.  But for the most part they understood the issue and supported me.

But that was minor when compared to the nastiness of the sergeants and other supervisors who constantly made cracks at briefing about having to reshuffle the schedule so the rookie (me) could have the weekend "off."  It was almost like they felt I was somehow personally somehow raining on their parade.  It really got old after a while.

But  this kind of garbage:

The employee requested the leave verbally. The manager made the following points:

1. Put the request in writing;
2. Either state in writing his job did not have to be during the absence (the look on the employee's face let you know he knew the outcome of writing that) or name the people who could do his job in his absence (similar look)
3. attach to the request a copy of a current membership card and a letter from the employee's volunteer superior that the employee was both requested and required for the assignment. The letter had to be on the non-profit's letterhead.

The manager also informed Rescue Ronnie that the manager would inform the employees named in 2 above that Rescue Ronnie had recommended them to do Ronnie's job in his absence.

The manager never heard from Resuce Ronnie about the matter again. Problem solved.

just means that some two-bit manager on some sort of power trip thinks she/he knows better than the Congress of the United States about getting the government's work done.

What's the civil service equivelent of fragging?

[Ranger75]

In the case of my agency, approval for an administrative absence (paid leave) must be routed in writing to the Chief of Staff.  For myself, that means passing through a senior SES and a Major General before being passed to the Chief.  As a result, I don't take the privilege for granted and can be assured that consideration of my request will be balanced with the needs of the organization.  In the past four years, I have utilized the leave authority for a total of eight days.   I also don't feel as though I am taking anything away from the tax paying public.  By this time of the year, I will have exceeded the maximum renumeration of wages and compensatory time permitted by Federal law.  Any additional hours I work beyond the standard 40/week during the last quarter of the year is a free gift to the government.  In my position, exceeding 40 hours is a given each week.   

[RRLE]

manager ... thinks she/he knows better than the Congress of the United States about getting the government's work done.

But he does. Congress passes feel good legislation without any idea how it will work. Most Congress Critters have never held a real job in their life. Managing a fawning congressional staff is not the real world of work or management.

The Congress Critters however will be the first to keel-haul the manager and his superiors when some constituent complains they didn't get their government check or other bene because Rescue Ronnie was off having fun.

[Ned]

But he does.

Of course he does.

Every corporal knows best how to run the Army.

And they're normally pretty happy to tell you about it.   

But first level supervisors who actively work to confound the official policies of their organization based on nothing more than their personal "worm's eye view" of how things should work are, at best, short-sighted and foolish.

And often times find themselves demoted or worse.

[lordmonar]

As someone else already mentioned - if someone is paying you to be on a mission, you really aren't a volunteer anymore. It doesn't matter who is footing the payroll. Volunteers are by definition unpaid. In effect, policies such as those advocated convert CAP into a paid reserve force not a volunteer force.

So....what's the problem with that?