DONT KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS "HERE WE GO AGAIN"

[RAZOR]

Civil Air Patrol
July 22, 2009

To fellow members of the National Board,

As you are all aware, the investigations into allegations against the National Commander are complete.

Per our National Board Resolution set forth at the 2009 Winter National Board meeting, reports of these investigations and the findings have been turned over to the National Legal Officer by the National Inspector General.

This was done at the direction of the Board of Governors.

On July 15th, we received notification from Col. Barry Herrin, our National Legal Officer, that two of the allegations were "sustained" but that he finds that there has been o "personal misconduct" by the National Commander and therefore believes that no further action is necessary or required.

However, Article 15 of the CAP Constitution & By-Laws, and specifically CAP Regulation 35-7,para.3(c) states the following:


"If the National Legal Officer determines that no probable cause exists, a ballot shall be furnished to each member of the National Board by which the members of the National Board may vote to convene to consider and vote on the issue of removal. Ballots must be returned to the National Legal Officer within 5 business days following the date on
which the ballots are sent. If more than 50 percent of the members of the National Board vote in favor of convening, then the National Board shall convene within 45 days to consider and vote on the issue of removal, and the subject officer shall be in a suspended status until the issue is decided by the National Board."


Several Board members have taken the first steps necessary to seek the resolution we must have to move the organization forward.

We contacted Col. Herrin and asked him to follow the regulations as prescribed.  As indicated in the response letter from Col. Herrin, he refuses to do so and is thus clearly in violation of the CAP Constitution & By-Laws, specifically CAPR 35-7.

In order to insure that the actual steps taken regarding the current situation are available to the entire National Board, we are sending you this electronic notification of these events, today.

It is incumbent upon all of us to now come together and require that the National Legal Officer release the appropriate information and poll the National Board to properly resolve the issue in the manner prescribed by our rules and regulations.

Fifty-one National Board members voted "yea" on that February resolution so we could hear this matter in an open forum as dictated by the Constitution and By-Laws and CAP regulations.

We believe that the verbal comments by Col. Herrin during our conference call on the evening of the 19th, as well as his written response to our letter, where he stated he was prohibited from releasing the information to us by the BOG, may not be quite accurate.

He was advised as follows:


"This report has been provided to you only for your legal review and if any additional step or action is required on your part as the CAP National Legal Officer you are to inform the BOG of your intended action and obtain prior BOG approval of the proposed course of action before you may proceed."


Civil Air Patrol Col. Herrin has an obligation to the rules he has sworn to uphold and is required to forward the information to our body. Notwithstanding that the "directive" from the BOG presents a separate issue for the National Board to resolve at some other time, Col Herrin has refused through his verbal and written comments, to even attempt to satisfy his responsibilities.

As a National Board, we cannot settle for a negative perception to arise from this issue and we must, with a clear conscience, work together to resolve this issue in an open, honest, and transparent environment. Our National Commander herself commented at the February meeting after we voted, that she did desire our regulations to be the process used to conclude this issue.

We are now, therefore, at a crossroads. We ask that you join us in our efforts to resolve this crisis and distraction. We ask that you forward to any one of us as soon as possible, your agreement to be included as a endorser of a directive to the NLO to comply with his constitutional duties, which shall be forwarded only upon the receipt of a majority (or more) of National Board members. The communication will direct that he follow thru on all of the conflicting directives he was given, so that he can then forward the information in accordance with our regulations.

In the event that the NLO receives further conflicting directives that continue interference with our regulations, he can immediately enlist our combined assistance to remedy any restrictions to his ability to comply.

Should you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to call any one of the National Board members listed below. It is imperative that we communicate openly with one another concerning these very serious issues before us. Our fiduciary responsibility demands nothing less.   

[Gunner C]

Sounds like the NLO is at least as inappropriate as the combat veterans' decorations he commented on.  No sympathy from this corner for him.

As for the process, let the chips fall were they might.

[Pylon]

I thought we already covered this back in the Pineda days.  The BOG is above all CAP regulations, constitution, by-laws, traditions, shenanigans, policies, rules, and secret handshakes.  They have authority, delegated directly from the United States Congress, to do whatever is necessary for/to Civil Air Patrol.  So if the BOG dictates to "do this" or "don't do that" and the action or inaction is against CAP regs, we still do it.  Because it's within their authority to do so.


Furthermore, we would do well to stay very clear of any and all speculation.  Speculating only creates additional harm and promotes a rampant rumor mill. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Yeah, but this hasn't risen to the Board of Governors yet. It's apparently still within the perview of the National Board. Whatever it is.

CAP's top leadership strata seems to have a hard time following regulations, as does NHQ. What's going on, and is CAP just begging for a major Air Force housecleaning?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Pylon]

Yeah, but this hasn't risen to the Board of Governors yet.

Have you spoken to members of BOG and received an official statement on that?  Are you privy to their discussions?  Are you also copied on all of their correspondence to the National Board, National Legal Officer and National Commander?

[BillB]

WHO is this corrospondance reported to be from?

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Pylon: I misspoke. Apparently, the governors have some idea what's going on. But can their knowledge stop the National Board from taking any sort of action? Dunno.

BillB: From the greeting, it purports to be from a member of the National Board. We don't know who, since that information is redacted. We don't know who the contacts are at the bottom of the letter, either... just as we don't have any further information on the supposed allegations.

Guess we'll all have to stay tuned.

[Flying Pig]

I just finished watching the movie Valkerie and then I log on and see this.  Looks like someone's Cherrio's got peed in.  I go to work everyday and deal with the things I deal with and the people I deal with, suspects, victims, performing SAR missions and recovering dead bodies from the river and to see a family go home from a day at the river with one less family member than they arrived with.  Responding to two deputies being shot by an armed mad man last week with an AR-15 and I cant help but sit back and chuckle when I see things like this happen in CAP.  Some of you must lead some really, really boring lives stuffed back in your cubicles at the office.  Im thinking someone needs to get a freakin' hobby.  And Im not directing that to anyone in particular.  But for crying out loud some of you make this stuff out like people will be chomping on cyanide capsules.

[Major Lord]

You had two deputies shot last week? In Fresno?

Major  Lord

[N Harmon]

Some of you must lead some really, really boring lives stuffed back in your cubicles at the office.

Guilty. 

[Flying Pig]

You had two deputies shot last week? In Fresno?

Major  Lord

Yes, and a K9.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I just finished watching the movie Valkerie and then I log on and see this.  Looks like someone's Cherrio's got peed in.  I go to work everyday and deal with the things I deal with and the people I deal with, suspects, victims, performing SAR missions and recovering dead bodies from the river and to see a family go home from a day at the river with one less family member than they arrived with.  Responding to two deputies being shot by an armed mad man last week with an AR-15 and I cant help but sit back and chuckle when I see things like this happen in CAP.  Some of you must lead some really, really boring lives stuffed back in your cubicles at the office.  Im thinking someone needs to get a freakin' hobby.  And Im not directing that to anyone in particular.  But for crying out loud some of you make this stuff out like people will be chomping on cyanide capsules.

It's just the drama that some sectors of CAP have become. I don't dwell on it, and it doesn't consume me, but if it's a "here we go again," you can bet it'll stir interest. It may cause permanent damage to an organization many of us have given a lot for. But I agree that we need to maintain perspective, and not let the soap opera consume us.

What you described is tragic, to be sure. I've seen it as a CAP member -- for instance, bodies dangling from inside a Centurion cockpit after the plane rolled multiple times and trees sheared off its wings. Or cows stuck in the metalwork underneath bridges after large-scale flooding. Unlike you and others in law enforcement, I'm not likely to see it every day, just when I'm needed as a CAP volunteer. Events like you enumerated make the palace intrigue at National Headquarters seem silly, to be sure.

Sorry to hear about the deputies down, and I'm sure every CAP member would pass his/her condolences along. But know that we also care about potential shenanigans that may or may not cripple the capabilities (and certainly affect the credibility) of Civil Air Patrol.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well, the National IG actually works for the BoG, so I wonder if there was some guidance from them with respect to actions, and I also wonder if that guidance was proper.

It IS possible for the National Commander to be guilty of some technical violation, without engaging in personal misconduct, if her intentions were pure, and she either misunderstood, misinterpreted, or shortcut a regulation.

In other words, not every violation rises to the level of removal-for-cause.  The question seems to be, who makes the call?  The BoG or the National Board?

Frankly, and for reasons I have discussed previously, I do NOT have confidence in the judgement of the NLO.

[Gunner C]

Frankly, and for reasons I have discussed previously, I do NOT have confidence in the judgement of the NLO.

And for the same reasons, the man is a blisterhead, IMO. 

[BillB]

Has anyone spoken to a member of the National Board to see if they got the original of this email? Or is the email a fraud and a product of someones imagination?

[FW]

 :angel:

[Gunner C]

Has anyone spoken to a member of the National Board to see if they got the original of this email? Or is the email a fraud and a product of someones imagination?

Good point!  Wondered that meself.

[Spike]

How did the email even get out to the "general public"?

Once again, we should just wait and see instead of speculating on issues like this.  Lets not judge someone in public before we even know the whats, hows, whys, whens and wheres.

[ZigZag911]

From the date on this letter until the NB meeting in September is right around 45 days as it is...can't the NB simply take the matter up then and there?

Or is this more about someone wanting the National CC suspended, for whatever reason?

[BrandonKea]

Or is this more about someone wanting the National CC suspended, for whatever reason?

I think that's exactly what it is...

[Pumbaa]

Or is this more about someone wanting the National CC suspended, for whatever reason?

BINGO!!!  Can you say agenda?  Sure you can....

[CAPSGT]

The way I read it, I don't think the author is necessarily trying to go after the national commander.  I see it more as going after the NLO in an attempt to keep things by the book, which was one of the things General Courter seems to have been really pushing from the start.

[FW]

^I think that is an excellent read on the letter.  There seems to be a conflict between the CAP Constitution and some things which transpired since the winter NB meeting.  Some members of the NB want to solve the conflicts. Some don't care about the conflicts.  Some think there are no conflicts.  I just want to dirink my coffee and eat my donuts....

[BillB]

Drinking coffee while on CAPTalk is dangerous to your keyboard

[ZigZag911]

Or is this more about someone wanting the National CC suspended, for whatever reason?

BINGO!!!  Can you say agenda?  Sure you can....

The question remaining is "who" and why"?

[FW]

The NB is working some internal issues out right now.  You all will hear of something if anything comes of it.  Why the "letter" was made public is anyone's guess however, this is still an "internal" NB issue which will be resolved by the NB. 

[jimmydeanno]

Sounds like there is a leak somewhere.  Time for a mole hunt? 

[Spike]

The NB is working some internal issues out right now.  You all will hear of something if anything comes of it. 

It would be nice to hear that "nothing came out of it" also.  Since we already know there is something going on, letting us know it was nothing would be the right thing to do!

I don't really care one way or another.  We should stop speculating, and let it play out on its own.  Until News of the Force picks up on it, it probably isn't true!!

[Gunner C]

I would be VERY surprised if anything came out of it.  I've spent some time with Gen Courter - she's the genuine article.  It's too bad that someone didn't have the integrity to keep an internal memo confidential.

[BrandonKea]

I would be VERY surprised if anything came out of it.  I've spent some time with Gen Courter - she's the genuine article.  It's too bad that someone didn't have the integrity to keep an internal memo confidential.

Agreed. I've never met the General, but several officers in my unit have. She's very down to earth and has a genuine concern for the CAP as a whole.

The fact that the OP and this thread has been allowed to live are confusing, but I guess nobody ever killed the Pineda threads either. Most everyone on here complains about how rumors are killing the organization, yet here we are seemingly putting gas on a fire...

[RRLE]

How did the email even get out to the "general public"?


Before it appeared here, it appeared on CAP ETE Insights.

[Fubar]

I think it was News of the Force that reported this had something to do with travel expenditures and that is what little more than a clerical error - national board members were expensing travel from the same budget the general did but the bookkeepers were unaware.

Money missing from a travel budget is worth investigating, hopefully the explanation provided by News of the Force is accurate in that there was no malfeasance. I can live with honest mistakes.

[FW]

^I'll rephrase my previous post (for effect  )
This is an internal NB issue.  That this letter became public is very unfortunate and, does show a lack of responsibility in the "culprit".

I don't think it is appropriate to mention the details however, as the NLO said, there were no findings of Fraud Waste or Abuse.

There is no truth to the travel expense issue.  Individual NEC members have their own travel budgets (CAP/FM has accounting staff to keep track of this) and there were absolutely no mistakes made from Gen. Courter nor FM.  Other NB members get subsidies for NB meetings from CAP and, this is also a segrataged line item in the budget.  This is something I have absolute knowledge about and am happy to share this (unrelated to the topic) fact.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Gen. Courter is from Michigan.

How do we know the National IG's investigation didn't turn up Jimmy Hoffa's body in her freezer?

I mean... Check out the time line:

1.  Jimmy Hoffa disappears.

2.  Courter becomes Michigan Wing commander.

3.  HWSRN disappears.

4.  Courter becomes National commander.

Coincidence?  I think NOT!   

[BillB]

Has anyone seen Kach lately? Gen Courter was in Florida, and Kach seems to have disappeared. And there was a black van seen headed north from Patrick AFB area

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Has anyone seen Kach lately? Gen Courter was in Florida, and Kach seems to have disappeared. And there was a black van seen headed north from Patrick AFB area

It was a white 15-pax van with the rear seat removed, from what my sources told me.

[FW]

The NB is working some internal issues out right now.  You all will hear of something if anything comes of it. 

It would be nice to hear that "nothing came out of it" also.  Since we already know there is something going on, letting us know it was nothing would be the right thing to do!

I don't really care one way or another.  We should stop speculating, and let it play out on its own.  Until News of the Force picks up on it, it probably isn't true!!

The issue is now DOA.  The NB has decided the issue has been decided by the IG and BOG.  It's time to move on and get with the business of dealing with the real issues of CAP.  :clap:

[JohnKachenmeister]

Poor Jimmy.

[jimmydeanno]

Poor Jimmy.

 

[JC004]

Kach, as always, your reasoning is flawless.

[Pumbaa]

Time to start Kach rumors!

I hear black helicopters were seen over his house!

[BillB]

That's possible, however CAP doesn't have any black helisopters. Only the black vans with Maxwell AFB decals and Michigan license plates. )The white van is assigned to the National Legal Officer) One black van may be assigned permenantly to Patrick AFB because of Kach's activities