Summary of Winter Board 2008 Changes and approvals

[Eclipse]

For those who were unable to watch the stream.  Could someone post a summary of changes and approvals?

[gistek]

As soon as they are available, they will be posted in the "CAP National Agenda/Meeting Minutes" part of the e-services site.

Currently the agenda is available.

I was able to watch part of the proceedings. I especially enjoyed the Cadet Advisory Committee report. Most interesting to me was the initiative to revise the current PT requirement to better encourage life long fitness goals.

[Eclipse]

I understand, however sometimes that can take a month+ to be posted.

I'm sure there are plenty of people with copious notes.

[sardak]

These are from my notes for Friday only.  I was working a double ELT mission, so missed some discussion and votes.  I didn't hear any of the Saturday session.
Agenda Item
1. Minutes - approved

2. Line of Succession - Option B proposed, option A as listed in agenda.  Option B would work just like the US presidential succession.  Vice commander would automatically succeed commander.  If the change occurred at the halfway point or earlier in the term, the new commander could not run for election at the next regularly scheduled election.  If the succession occurred at half + one day or later in the current term, the new commander could run for election at the next regularly scheduled election.  The staff said either option was acceptable.
Motion was tabled to Saturday.  If I read the other thread correctly, Option A, the original proposal, was accepted.

3. NIMS Compliance.  The proposal was not included in the agenda.  Instead of complete compliance by 30 Sep 08, all I/IS class deadlines except I-400 would be extended to 31 Dec 08.  I-400 completion would be extended to 30 Sep 09. 

Amendment 1 was to drop the specific dates, and only state that compliance will meet dates as specified by the federal government.  This amendment passed on a vote of 32 to 26.

Amendment 2 was to drop the I-400 requirement for section chiefs and Information Officer.  I-400 would then only be required for IC, Safety Officer and Liaison Officer.  This carried without a specific vote total announced (but by implication not unanimous).

The motion to accept the proposal as amended carried, again without a vote total.

4. Communications Curriculum. Some discussion about grandfathering, but I believe the motion as published carried.

5 and 6 - ?

7. Recognition of CAP Mission Pilot Hours - failed after some interesting discussion.

8. Amending CAPR 265-1 regarding terms for chaplains.  Some discussion, but I didn't hear the result.

9. Process PD Awards through eServices. Passed as published.

10. Member Achievement Award.  Amended to accept the design shown during the meeting (not quite the same as shown in the agenda, see the other thread).   Passed.

11. Make AE Education reports available through eServices.  Passed as published.

12.  Incident Staff Member of the Year Award. Passed as published.

13. Ground Team Member of the Year Award.  The agenda schedule showed this as GT Member, but the proposal write-up is for Ground Team of the Year.  There was some discussion and confusion over which it was supposed to be.  The sponsor, Col Pearson, never spoke through a mic, so he couldn't be heard. 

The motion passed with a comment that it would be straightened out.  I believe it is an individual member award and not a team award. [Although the 1AF aircrew award clearly spells out it is awarded to the entire crew.]

14. Extension of CAPF 75 (drivers license) Validation Period.  Amended for the renewal to coincide with the drivers license renewal, whatever the period is. There was concern since some states have 10 year renewal periods.  Wings can issue a supplement to specify a shorter period.  Passed.

15. Revise CAPR 123-3. ?

16. Make prospective member information available through eServices. Passed.

17. Remove USCAP tape from BDU and field jacket.  Tabled to Saturday to work out a clear proposal for all USCAP items.  Someone wondered if this included the U.S. cutout on the service coat collar.

18. Boonie hats.  The black van people disconnected the audio during this discussion.  The audio came back at the completion of the vote.  For what?

19. Long sleeve polo shirt.  Approved with the same markings as on the short sleeve shirt.

20. Remove silver braid from TPU coat and silver band from service cap.  Confusion reigned during this discussion.  Sanity prevailed with a motion to table it indefinitely, followed by applause.

21. Drop the requirement that ribbons, badges and devices must fall below the notch on the collar.  Passed.

22. Change to the command patch without the US.  Tabled to Saturday so it can be included with the other USCAP items.

End of meeting, but not my mission.

Mike

[CASH172]

This is Saturday only, and this is going by memory on stuff I cared more about, so don't take this as too accurate.

Discussion to have a cadet sit as a non-voting member of the NB did not carry. 

USCAP Command Patches for uniforms will be phased out by March 2010. 
USCAP Tapes for uniforms will be phased out by March 2010.
USCAP Command Patches for vans and aircraft will be replaced as needed.

The Black All Weather Coat for wear with the TPUs.  Passed.
Cold Weather Cap, not sure if TPU, SDU, or both.  Passed

A motion to have the old USAF Aux patch as optional on the flight suit did not pass.

A new alternate field uniform, not sure on the details.  Passed.

SARCOMP.  Did not pass, I think.

I didn't catch the details on the line of succession or the whole deal about NB and NEC jurisdiction.  I also forgot the ending on the suspension of accused member for possible CPP violations.  I probably missed a few things. 

[♠SARKID♠]

From the Wyoming Wing website, my additions in red -

1. Change BDU and Field Jacket Tape, along with Change Command Patch – Passed amended.
        Goodbye United States Civil Air Patrol
2. Wear of Senior Member NCO Grades on the New Corporate Uniform – Passed
3. Region and Wing “XXX-XX-000” Squadrons – Report accepted
4. Cadet on National Board – Defeated
5. Regulation and Control of CAP Participation in “Booster Clubs” – Sent back to committee
6. Suspension of individuals during investigations of Alleged Cadet Abuse - ?
7. Bylaw Change – Passes and sent to the BoG
8. Revision of CAPR 60-1 and CAPF 5 – Sent back to committee
9. Nomination of MGen Bowling to Hall of Honor – Passed
10. Emergency Services Competition – Defeated
11. Agenda Item Submission Procedure – Passed
12. Adverse Personnel Action Report – Tabled
13. Civil Air Patrol Ethics Program – New regulation posted.
14. Wing Commander can authorized items for field use – Passed
         Wing Commanders can now authorize field teams to wear non-regulation uniforms i.e blaze orange t-shirts, etc.  Some of our customers and state EM agencies did not allow CAP to participate in their activities because of our uniform's lack of visibility and inconformancies with their regulations.
15. National Command Badge – Defeated
16. Commander’s Commendation with bronze star to designate Region Commander award – Passed
17. Overcoat wear – Passed
         New overcoat for corporate uniform
18. Winter Cap wear – Passed
19. FAA Wings program accepting Form 5/91 and NCPSC credit – Passed
20. Adding “US Air Force Auxiliary” to Commander patch – Defeated

[jeders]

At the end of the meeting Saturday the Vanguard Rep said that all plastic encased insignia are unavailable until they find a new supplier. If they don't find a new supplier then they won't be selling us anymore plastic encased insignia. If that happens National will address the situation with an emergency action.

[Capt Rivera]

From the Wyoming Wing website, my additions in red -

3. Region and Wing "XXX-XX-000" Squadrons – Report accepted

anyone know what that was about? what was said? etc?

[BillB]

Without a doubt that internet video presentation was on a scale from 1-10 a zero.
Dropped audio, jerky pans. shots of a vacant podium when actionwas off to the side slides on screen long after the speaker covered them and moved on. Could I have done better? You bet your bippie since I have 40 years experience in video production and presentation. I've seen much better production coming from the CAP National staff. It doesn't look like something Marc would turn out.

[_]

From the Wyoming Wing website, my additions in red -

3. Region and Wing "XXX-XX-000" Squadrons – Report accepted

anyone know what that was about? what was said? etc?

It dealt with the fact that the 000 squadrons are often used as holding squadrons for members who still have active memberships but are not active at any level.  As it stands now, those people still have the same eservices access as an active member.  They're looking at the possibility of restricting access of those in the 000 squadrons.

[Eclipse]

From the Wyoming Wing website, my additions in red -

3. Region and Wing "XXX-XX-000" Squadrons – Report accepted

anyone know what that was about? what was said? etc?

It dealt with the fact that the 000 squadrons are often used as holding squadrons for members who still have active memberships but are not active at any level.  As it stands now, those people still have the same eservices access as an active member.  They're looking at the possibility of restricting access of those in the 000 squadrons.

There is also the issue of what "inactive" really means - some states, including mine, want it to mean that if you are "000", you can't do anything, including flying, however there are very specific regs about restricting flight privileges, and until that is addressed, they can't ground someone for being in "000".

[_]

From the Wyoming Wing website, my additions in red -

3. Region and Wing "XXX-XX-000" Squadrons – Report accepted

anyone know what that was about? what was said? etc?

It dealt with the fact that the 000 squadrons are often used as holding squadrons for members who still have active memberships but are not active at any level.  As it stands now, those people still have the same eservices access as an active member.  They're looking at the possibility of restricting access of those in the 000 squadrons.

There is also the issue of what "inactive" really means - some states, including mine, want it to mean that if you are "000", you can't do anything, including flying, however there are very specific regs about restricting flight privileges, and until that is addressed, they can't ground someone for being in "000".

That point was brought up as well and will probably be considered for future action

[NHQ-OS-126 Frank]

Hello everybody,

I watched the winter board online as well. It was 8pm over here in Europe when it started.

Does anybody know what the new BDU and field jacket tape will look like ??

[Eclipse]

New?   

It just reverts to "CIVIL AIR PATROL", right?

[NHQ-OS-126 Frank]

That's what I thought.

We ordered from vanguard in september 07 new cap taps for bdu's and when we got those we saw that they said: U.S. Civil Air Patrol

So we ordered those for all of us and everybody had to change those out.

And now it will go back again

[DC]

That's what I thought.

We ordered from vanguard in september 07 new cap taps for bdu's and when we got those we saw that they said: U.S. Civil Air Patrol

So we ordered those for all of us and everybody had to change those out.

And now it will go back again

Yup. The U.S. Civil Air Patrol was an unfortunate change made by the former Nat/CC. It is now back to Civil Air Patrol. However, the phaseout date is March 2010, so there is time to wear out the new ones if you desire to do so...

[NHQ-OS-126 Frank]

Tnx for the answer.......

I just didn't get the information why they don't wanna use U.S. Civil Air Patrol anymore.

[jeders]

U.S. was removed from everything that said U.S. CAP a few months ago, this was just finalizing that decision as far as our uniforms are concerned.

U.S. never should have been added, and now it has to be removed to correct the mistake.

[RiverAux]

Yup. The U.S. Civil Air Patrol was an unfortunate change made by the former Nat/CC.

Technically, the same people that voted to drop it, were the ones who approved it last fall.  He just pushed for it.  Doesn't say much about the ability of the NB to think for itself. 

[Ricochet13]

Yup. The U.S. Civil Air Patrol was an unfortunate change made by the former Nat/CC. It is now back to Civil Air Patrol. However, the phaseout date is March 2010, so there is time to wear out the new ones if you desire to do so...

The former NAT/CC true, but let's not forget there were those at the National level who must also accept responsibility for these added/needless costs to members when the decision to change was made in the first place.

I often wonder if the "corporate mentality" within the organization fails to properly act in member's behalf whenever possible.  For example, would the world have come to an end if we had returned to the previous CAP/USAFAux command patch, rather than an entirely new CIVIL AIR PATROL command patch?
(If that new patch, the third in several years, was not approved, I stand corrected).

At some point those designated as "corporate members" need to be reminded that 56,000 or so members pay dues, and when accepting that money, the "corporation" accepts some obligation to act in those member's behalf, not exclusively for the corporation.

By the way, I did just renewed.  Hoping for the best in the next year.

[NHQ-OS-126 Frank]

Tnx for all those information.

So if we order the next time cap tabs we should get the "old" ones again :-)

Does anybody thinks CAP will get the new ABU uniform one day ?

[jeders]

Yes, you should get the ones with just Civil Air Patrol.

Supposedly, we are going to get ABUs in the future, though no time frame has yet been set.

[NHQ-OS-126 Frank]

Tnx.... for the answer  :-)

Is there any chatroom for CAP members where you could write with other members ??

That would make it easier sometimes to communicate than this forum .....

[Eclipse]

Tnx.... for the answer  :-)

Is there any chatroom for CAP members where you could write with other members ??

That would make it easier sometimes to communicate than this forum .....

But then there is no record for others to search for later (and use against you!).   

[NHQ-OS-126 Frank]

yes that's right too.......

i thought more about something like msn where you can write with people but who are only in cap or interested in cap. 

[♠SARKID♠]

Thats part of the reason this site exists though.  Its not just a forum for CAP members to meet and talk, but an ever growing repository of information that can be searched through and logged for everybody.  Its a big expanding CAP encyclopedia.  Through our discussions we gain more information for the common member to read and learn from.

[/off topic]

[John Bryan]

Yup. The U.S. Civil Air Patrol was an unfortunate change made by the former Nat/CC.

Technically, the same people that voted to drop it, were the ones who approved it last fall.  He just pushed for it.  Doesn't say much about the ability of the NB to think for itself. 

In defense of the National Board (can't believe I said that :angel:).....about 1/3 of the board changes yearly due to terms, then you have the Wing Commanders who resign, are run off or get fired...so it is not the same board.

[John Bryan]

Plus....until they change the rules and protect Wing and Region Commanders from political firings , then there will always be the lack of NB free thought.

[RiverAux]

It has only been a few months and there have not been all that many personnel changes since then.  Sorry, I'm not letting the NB off on this one. 

[FW]

We've had about a 50% turnover in NB members since Aug 06.  In the next 18 months there will be only about 10-15 members of the NB who will even know who the former Natl/CC was.

[LtCol White]

It has only been a few months and there have not been all that many personnel changes since then.  Sorry, I'm not letting the NB off on this one. 

The biggest mistake anyone can make is to come into office and change everything right away. It also assumes that everyone there is incompetent/bad which is NEVER the case in reality. That is a setup for failure.  Changes for a new commander should be surgical, planned, and calculated.

[Bluelakes 13]

I heard "unfunded mandates to the members" twice during the meeting, and I was in-and-out.  It's nice that someone is keeping our pocketbooks in mind.

It's a shame that so much of the agenda was uniform issues... With the state of affairs as they are, you would think that we would have more important things to consider.  How much longer can new members make up for the hemorrhaging?

[BigMojo]

Did anyone hear any discussion/voting on allowing qualified cadets to become Ground Team Leaders? I thought I saw that on the agenda...

[_]

I did not see anything on that.  Are you asking about cadets under 18 being able to become GTL's?

[LittleIronPilot]

At the end of the meeting Saturday the Vanguard Rep said that all plastic encased insignia are unavailable until they find a new supplier. If they don't find a new supplier then they won't be selling us anymore plastic encased insignia. If that happens National will address the situation with an emergency action.

Well crap....it IS an emergency. I have my 2nd Lt rank on backorder now for over four months! Get with it NB....get rid of the [darn] plastic encased rank and convince mama Blue we can wear our blue back ground sew on rank!

[cnitas]

Meh...I would just use the subdued green rank until further guidance.   

Your leather name patch and CAP patch identify you as CAP.

[pixelwonk]

[off-topic geekness]
Heh.  I had From The Earth to the Moon in last night and saw a bunch of guys listening to Kennedy's "not because they are easy..." speech on the radio.
They were sportin zoom bags with what looked like plastic encased rank on their shoulders and black leather ASNPs.
I had to remind myself it was the 60s and they were not CAP.
[/off-topic geekness]  okay, well just the /off-topic part.  I'm still plenty geeky

I have an extra pair of plastic encased butter bars that I never used.
PM me for 'em.

Meh...I would just use the subdued green rank until further guidance.   

Your leather name patch and CAP patch identify you as CAP.

[Pylon]

(If that new patch, the third in several years, was not approved, I stand corrected).

Actually, it's the fourth patch in several years.  Almost ridiculous. 

See the progression attached.  If you were a member who put together a flight suit in 2003, you would have had to buy four different chest patches in five years. 

It alludes to a disturbing inability of the board to see a long-term picture for the organization.

[ddelaney103]

(If that new patch, the third in several years, was not approved, I stand corrected).

Actually, it's the fourth patch in several years.  Almost ridiculous. 

See the progression attached.  If you were a member who put together a flight suit in 2003, you would have had to buy four different chest patches in five years. 

It alludes to a disturbing inability of the board to see a long-term picture for the organization.

For the transition to the "post-USCAP" world, I have two words: blue Sharpie.

Seriously, I think we could have kept the last patch.  There's a difference b/w USCAP and having US on a CAP patch.  In fact, it was a great homage to our original patch which had a US below the triangle.

[cnitas]

I agree.  I did not see a problem with the 2004 patch, and I do not see a problem with the 2005 version.  They are both acceptable.

[BigMojo]

I did not see anything on that.  Are you asking about cadets under 18 being able to become GTL's?

Yes...I thought I read somewhere that they were contemplating allowing qualified cadets under 18 to become GTL's. I have one cadet in particular that is has all the quals, and is deserving of the title if we could give it.

[arajca]

I did not see anything on that.  Are you asking about cadets under 18 being able to become GTL's?

Yes...I thought I read somewhere that they were contemplating allowing qualified cadets under 18 to become GTL's. I have one cadet in particular that is has all the quals, and is deserving of the title if we could give it.

Does this cadet have have a CAP driver's license?

[floridacyclist]

I think they removed the requirement for a DL from the SQTR, I haven't noticed it lately. From the DL standpoint, It wouldn't matter as long as a team member could drive.

[arajca]

I stand corrected.

[BigMojo]

He does not, but it is not required any longer. He has everything completed (GTM3,2,1 and GTL) in terms of SQTR tasks...he just doesn't have the age met. While some cadets lack the maturity to handle the position, I think the CC or ES officer should be able to decide if a cadet is ready to take the responsibility of leading a team.

Maybe there's some legal issue at play?

[♠SARKID♠]

He does not, but it is not required any longer. He has everything completed (GTM3,2,1 and GTL) in terms of SQTR tasks...he just doesn't have the age met. While some cadets lack the maturity to handle the position, I think the CC or ES officer should be able to decide if a cadet is ready to take the responsibility of leading a team.

Maybe there's some legal issue at play?

I would see signing over/accepting a site possible factors as you have to be 18 to sign a contract.  One would expect that the forms are legally binding documents that the team is responsible for the site, and that if anything goes wrong or has to be taken to court that the team is the one to go to.

[Ned]

I would see signing over/accepting a site possible factors as you have to be 18 to sign a contract.  One would expect that the forms are legally binding documents that the team is responsible for the site, and that if anything goes wrong or has to be taken to court that the team is the one to go to.

It's a little off topic, but minors can and do sign contracts every day and under certain circumstances can be held to full legal liability as if they were adults.

But even more importantly, no GTL should be signing any sort of personal contract for anything mission-related.  The "party in interest" is CAP, Inc., not the GTL regardless of age.

And the only signature that can bind CAP Inc., is a corporate officer -- i.e., wing commander or higher.


Back to your regularly scheduled discussion.


Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[SJFedor]

He does not, but it is not required any longer. He has everything completed (GTM3,2,1 and GTL) in terms of SQTR tasks...he just doesn't have the age met. While some cadets lack the maturity to handle the position, I think the CC or ES officer should be able to decide if a cadet is ready to take the responsibility of leading a team.

Maybe there's some legal issue at play?

He shouldn't have anything completed on the GTL SQTR, as he is under the age of 18, and does not meet all of the prerequisites for the SQTR to be issued. Doing so makes him, more or less, a GTL trainee under age, which is in contradiction to CAPR 60-3.

[davidsinn]

Isn't the age the only thing on a GTL Sqtr that is unique to GTL? I thought GTM3-1 covered all the tasks that GTL did.

[davedove]

Isn't the age the only thing on a GTL Sqtr that is unique to GTL? I thought GTM3-1 covered all the tasks that GTL did.

There are a few that are unique to GTL, but in general you are right.  Most of the tasks are also in one of the other ground qualifications.

[BigMojo]

Exactly...His GTM3-1 took care of most the GTL things, the few unique tasks have not been signed on yet as he can't complete the pre-reqs until he's 18.

My point on this matter was that they should reconsider the age requirement...we really should return this to topic as it appears I was mistaken that it wasn't discussed at the meeting.

[spaatzmom]

Did this cadet attend NESA?  If so he may be able to wear the badge as his paperwork would show the completion of all tasks, but by age could not perform as such.  This happened to many of the cadets who attended NESA with my son.  They were told to keep the paperwork given to them with the tasks, mission numbers, and roster list of cadets and turn in a  copy when they turned 18 so they could then do the job of GTL.

[tjaxe]

Without a doubt that internet video presentation was on a scale from 1-10 a zero.
Dropped audio, jerky pans. shots of a vacant podium when actionwas off to the side slides on screen long after the speaker covered them and moved on. Could I have done better? You bet your bippie since I have 40 years experience in video production and presentation. I've seen much better production coming from the CAP National staff. It doesn't look like something Marc would turn out.

I don't think I'd give it a zero at all.  I think it was great that we could be there "live" as it was going on.  Yeah, there were a few glitches and some less-than-perfect moments but as someone who DOESN'T have 40 years experience I thought it was okay.  Again... I'm happy we could peek in in general.  That's just my .02c.

[Walkman]

OK, this is late in the game, but...

As a graphic designer and self-proclaimed type nerd, the typography on the banner below the shield drives me NUTS! Trying to force letters around the point of the banner is just ugly.

Sorry, off my soapbox and back to the previous discussion.

[SarDragon]

As a graphic designer and self-proclaimed type nerd, the typography on the banner below the shield drives me NUTS! Trying to force letters around the point of the banner is just ugly.

But it's a piece of pie in Illustrator! 

[ddelaney103]

OK, this is late in the game, but...

As a graphic designer and self-proclaimed type nerd, the typography on the banner below the shield drives me NUTS! Trying to force letters around the point of the banner is just ugly.

Sorry, off my soapbox and back to the previous discussion.

However, that is the way the AF does it:

[fyrfitrmedic]

 Question:

Does anybody have anything approaching a canonical summary?

[NJMEDIC]

A new alternate field uniform, not sure on the details.  Passed.


Any Details on the uniform?

[jeders]

A new alternate field uniform, not sure on the details.  Passed.


Any Details on the uniform?

Not an actual national uniform. Just allows wing commanders to create alternate field uniforms if the state requires certain things or allow certain environmental type uniform items such as snow suits for those far to the north.

[baronet68]

This is why I haven't worn my flight suit since 2003.   

[PHall]

This is why I haven't worn my flight suit since 2003.   

And now you why I have my flight suit patches attached with velcro!

[NIN]

And now you why I have my flight suit patches attached with velcro!

Mine are engineered with a Javascript powered rotator that gets its data from a gigantic constellation of satellites ringing the planet in low earth orbit.  NB or NEC makes a change, *poof* my Command Patch changes.   Its a little cumbersome, but in the end it requires zero intervention on my part.

[JohnKachenmeister]

And now you why I have my flight suit patches attached with velcro!

Mine are engineered with a Javascript powered rotator that gets its data from a gigantic constellation of satellites ringing the planet in low earth orbit.  NB or NEC makes a change, *poof* my Command Patch changes.   Its a little cumbersome, but in the end it requires zero intervention on my part.

I like the zero intervention part.  That why I gave up buying new ones and changing patches.  If the PAO in Nevada can mark time on flight suit patches, so can I!

[DNall]

And now you why I have my flight suit patches attached with velcro!

Mine are engineered with a Javascript powered rotator that gets its data from a gigantic constellation of satellites ringing the planet in low earth orbit.  NB or NEC makes a change, *poof* my Command Patch changes.   Its a little cumbersome, but in the end it requires zero intervention on my part.

Now avail for 39.95 from Vanguard. For an extra 149.95, it also includes a PLB. 

[FW]

And for these reasons, I wear the golf shirt/gray slacks combo for flying.  NB hasn't touched this uniform for years and, I hope, never does.

[DNall]

Not to drag off on another discussion, but I wouldn't count on being able to wear that forever. FEMA is demanding nomex in the current standards, but they aren't mandatory for a while yet. Debatable how long or if it's subject to change at all, but I'm guessing 18-24mos, maybe a little more.

[lordmonar]

He does not, but it is not required any longer. He has everything completed (GTM3,2,1 and GTL) in terms of SQTR tasks...he just doesn't have the age met. While some cadets lack the maturity to handle the position, I think the CC or ES officer should be able to decide if a cadet is ready to take the responsibility of leading a team.

Maybe there's some legal issue at play?

There is the legal issue, also there is the slippery sloap issue.  I'm sure THIS cadet is ready.....but what about the next one?  I went to NESA with a couple of cadets whe were over 18 and NOT ready to take on the job of GTL.

I understand where you are comming from, but I it makes me uncomfortable thinking about under 18 GTL's running around with a bunch of cadet GTM's....(and don't pretend that won't happen!  )

[NEBoom]

And now you why I have my flight suit patches attached with velcro!

Mine are engineered with a Javascript powered rotator that gets its data from a gigantic constellation of satellites ringing the planet in low earth orbit.  NB or NEC makes a change, *poof* my Command Patch changes.   Its a little cumbersome, but in the end it requires zero intervention on my part.

Now avail for 39.95 from Vanguard. For an extra 149.95, it also includes a PLB. 

Plus shipping... 

[ColonelJack]

And now you why I have my flight suit patches attached with velcro!

Mine are engineered with a Javascript powered rotator that gets its data from a gigantic constellation of satellites ringing the planet in low earth orbit.  NB or NEC makes a change, *poof* my Command Patch changes.   Its a little cumbersome, but in the end it requires zero intervention on my part.

Now avail for 39.95 from Vanguard. For an extra 149.95, it also includes a PLB. 

Plus shipping... 

Yeah, but will they throw in a challenge coin?   

Jack

[Trouble]

A new alternate field uniform, not sure on the details.  Passed.


Any Details on the uniform?

Not an actual national uniform. Just allows wing commanders to create alternate field uniforms if the state requires certain things or allow certain environmental type uniform items such as snow suits for those far to the north.

Seems to me that the reg will eventually read  ... "If you have a real operational need for them, then you may allow alternate Field Uniform items in order to meet a specific local need(s) and requirement(s) ...but only if you need to and then, you may only allow those items that are truly needed.  i.e. if you allow it, you must justify it. 

[alamrcn]

Breast Shield Patches
(or formerly Command Patch when we were still the USAF Aux) -

Apparently Vanguard had already made up a small batch of non-US patches to have at the Winter Boards in anticipation of the vote! So, I can't get something authorized like the ARCHER patch w/o an 8-month backorder... but Vanguard will make up something that can't even be worn yet?!

Anyway, one of the early versions is on it's way to me as we speak and I will try to remember to post a scan of it here after it arrives. Unknown if it will be identical to the posted 'Shopped version or the one that will someday be available to the general membership.

Also, it is being looked into (by Natl HO staff) whether any pre-TP items are being affected, such as the Overseas Cadet Squadron patch (formerly National Shoulder patch) which also has "US" on it.


-Ace

[Lancer]

Anyway, one of the early versions is on it's way to me as we speak and I will try to remember to post a scan of it here after it arrives. Unknown if it will be identical to the posted 'Shopped version or the one that will someday be available to the general membership.

Like this?


http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=13551

[mikeylikey]

Also, it is being looked into (by Natl HO staff) whether any pre-TP items are being affected, such as the Overseas Cadet Squadron patch (formerly National Shoulder patch) which also has "US" on it.

That should not change.  I think I read somewhere that they legally have to wear those as CAP members overseas.  However, I would not out it past the geniuses at NHQ to change something that does not need to be changed!

[Eclipse]

Anyway, one of the early versions is on it's way to me as we speak and I will try to remember to post a scan of it here after it arrives. Unknown if it will be identical to the posted 'Shopped version or the one that will someday be available to the general membership.

Like this?


http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=13551

That still looks like a shop-job.

You can still see the artifacts where they sampled the field and then pasted over the "US".

Has anyone actually held one in their hand?

Also, IMHO, there is no reason to skew the "R" in air, based on the size it would have fit fine.  If they really wanted to get fancy the should have shaped the "R" on one side and the "p" on the other. 

[FW]

I saw a couple of samples at the board meeting.  The CS was showing them around to members.

[alamrcn]

That still looks like a shop-job.

Are you seriously suggesting that Vanguard is capable of that effort? 

Remember, these are the folks that could easily take photos of any number of items quickly accessable to them, but instead sat on "Image not Available" place-holders for over a year on their NEW website. They probably shipped the original image over to China and had a 3rd party do it.

I am paying $4.75 for mine... and the website says $2.85!  Crap. Well, that is assuming that Vanguard actually HAS them, because they've tried selling me photos of the insignia on their website before!

-Ace

[alamrcn]

A little anti-climatic now, but here it is...



This was one of a few samples that were brought by Vanguard to the Winter Boards last week - prior to authorization by National HQ. It just arrived in my mailbox yesterday.

If someone DOES do the blue Sharpie thing, post a scan so we can see how it turns out! If it becomes a common practice among members, it will become historically notable in the lineage of things.... and it wouldn't be the first wearer insignia-modification in CAP's uniform history, and much for the same frustrated and monetary purposes!

-Ace

[Slim]

I tried the Sharpie trick with one of mine, and it didn't really come out too bad-from a distance.  Up close, you can tell that something doesn't look quite right.

I'll try and snap a couple of pics in the next few days.

[NHQ-OS-126 Frank]

Also, it is being looked into (by Natl HO staff) whether any pre-TP items are being affected, such as the Overseas Cadet Squadron patch (formerly National Shoulder patch) which also has "US" on it.

We do have US on our shoulder patch. And that's good like that. Because a lot of people over here don't know what Civil Air Patrol is, so when they see the patch and also the US they know at least from which country it is and also that is something official.

Having the US flag patch on the left shoulder is not always enough to let people know that we are an official organization.

Same thing for the left  pocket patch on BDU's. Over here when is says CIVIL AIR PATROL a lot of people ask where we are from.........when we had, still have, the U.S. CIVIL AIR PATROL patch we got better reactions from overseas people because they saw who we belong to......

I just don't understand why they don't want the U.S on the new patches anymore .......  US Air Force,
US Army, why not US Civil Air Patrol 

Spacing - MIKE

[FW]

It's nice when your "Wing Commander" is also the National Commander.  Maybe you could ask your squadron commander to petition the National commander to publish an overseas squadron uniform supplement allowing the use of the  overseas squadron patch for the breast pocket of the flight suit/BDU instead of the command patch.  You probably already have permission to use that decal for vehicles/aircraft.

[NHQ-OS-126 Frank]

I don't know if we have permission to use that decal for vehicles/aircraft because we do not have a vehicle neither an aircraft for our squadron. We use our private cars if we need transportation. And that is not always easy to organize........We would be happy if we had a vehicle for the squadron.

[JayT]

Also, it is being looked into (by Natl HO staff) whether any pre-TP items are being affected, such as the Overseas Cadet Squadron patch (formerly National Shoulder patch) which also has "US" on it.

We do have US on our shoulder patch. And that's good like that. Because a lot of people over here don't know what Civil Air Patrol is, so when they see the patch and also the US they know at least from which country it is and also that is something official.

Having the US flag patch on the left shoulder is not always enough to let people know that we are an official organization.

Same thing for the left  pocket patch on BDU's. Over here when is says CIVIL AIR PATROL a lot of people ask where we are from.........when we had, still have, the U.S. CIVIL AIR PATROL patch we got better reactions from overseas people because they saw who we belong to......

I just don't understand why they don't want the U.S on the new patches anymore .......  US Air Force,
US Army, why not US Civil Air Patrol 

A. Not the name of the organization. The name of the organization is Civil Air Patrol.

B. We're not an independent agency, we're part of the Air Force, at least indirectly.

Tag spacing - MIKE

[PHall]

Also, it is being looked into (by Natl HO staff) whether any pre-TP items are being affected, such as the Overseas Cadet Squadron patch (formerly National Shoulder patch) which also has "US" on it.

We do have US on our shoulder patch. And that's good like that. Because a lot of people over here don't know what Civil Air Patrol is, so when they see the patch and also the US they know at least from which country it is and also that is something official.

Having the US flag patch on the left shoulder is not always enough to let people know that we are an official organization.

Same thing for the left  pocket patch on BDU's. Over here when is says CIVIL AIR PATROL a lot of people ask where we are from.........when we had, still have, the U.S. CIVIL AIR PATROL patch we got better reactions from overseas people because they saw who we belong to......

I just don't understand why they don't want the U.S on the new patches anymore .......  US Air Force,
US Army, why not US Civil Air Patrol 

Biggest beef there was with the US Civil Air Patrol thing was the way it was done.
The former National Commander decided on his own that we needed it and just implemented it as a last minute item of new business at a NEC meeting. Wasn't on the agenda or anything.

Problem is that Civil Air Patrol is our official name, as stated in the federal law that charters us and the law that makes us the civilian auxiliary of the Air Force.

Now, if the name change had been done the "right" way, i.e. get the laws amended and change the AFI's, and a couple of good reasons had been given for the change, things might have gone differently.

Now, you may be able to get a waiver from National for the Overseas Units to wear the US CIVIL AIR PATROL tapes,
it does almost make sense. If you really feel you need them then go ahead and ask for the waiver.

Tag spacing - MIKE

[link]

So what was the deal with boonie hats?  Can we wear them or not?  I thought I caught the tail end of it, where it's a yes, but a project officer can say no to them.  If that's true does the Air Force still have to approve it even though they're not wearing BDU's any more?

[0]

Anyone have any idea when the Minutes will be up? 

[JayT]

So what was the deal with boonie hats?  Can we wear them or not?  I thought I caught the tail end of it, where it's a yes, but a project officer can say no to them.  If that's true does the Air Force still have to approve it even though they're not wearing BDU's any more?

The AF is still wearing BDUs, and besides, it's still an Air Force uniform ultimately.

Notice how we can't wear boonies with DFU?

(Even through I have both camo and dark blue boonies in my closet, waiting...)

[link]

So what was the deal with boonie hats?  Can we wear them or not?  I thought I caught the tail end of it, where it's a yes, but a project officer can say no to them.  If that's true does the Air Force still have to approve it even though they're not wearing BDU's any more?

The AF is still wearing BDUs, and besides, it's still an Air Force uniform ultimately.

Notice how we can't wear boonies with DFU?

(Even through I have both camo and dark blue boonies in my closet, waiting...)

I don't know about where you are but when I've been on base, I haven't seen a BDU in months.

Also whats the FDU?  Is that what you call the BBDU?

[JayT]

So what was the deal with boonie hats?  Can we wear them or not?  I thought I caught the tail end of it, where it's a yes, but a project officer can say no to them.  If that's true does the Air Force still have to approve it even though they're not wearing BDU's any more?

The AF is still wearing BDUs, and besides, it's still an Air Force uniform ultimately.

Notice how we can't wear boonies with DFU?

(Even through I have both camo and dark blue boonies in my closet, waiting...)

I don't know about where you are but when I've been on base, I haven't seen a BDU in months.

Also whats the FDU?  Is that what you call the BBDU?

Distinctive Field Uniform.

[link]

So what was the deal with boonie hats?  Can we wear them or not?  I thought I caught the tail end of it, where it's a yes, but a project officer can say no to them.  If that's true does the Air Force still have to approve it even though they're not wearing BDU's any more?

The AF is still wearing BDUs, and besides, it's still an Air Force uniform ultimately.

Notice how we can't wear boonies with DFU?

(Even through I have both camo and dark blue boonies in my closet, waiting...)

I don't know about where you are but when I've been on base, I haven't seen a BDU in months.

Also whats the FDU?  Is that what you call the BBDU?

Distinctive Field Uniform.

who else do you know that calls the BBDU the "DFU" ?  I've never heard anyone call it taht.

[JoeTomasone]

You know, if they would just rename the organization "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary", it would solve a LOT of problems that we have and the USCG Aux apparently does not.   But for several reasons, they will not, and perhaps should not.   T'would be interesting, tho.

[davedove]

So what was the deal with boonie hats?  Can we wear them or not?  I thought I caught the tail end of it, where it's a yes, but a project officer can say no to them.  If that's true does the Air Force still have to approve it even though they're not wearing BDU's any more?

The AF is still wearing BDUs, and besides, it's still an Air Force uniform ultimately.

Notice how we can't wear boonies with DFU?

(Even through I have both camo and dark blue boonies in my closet, waiting...)

I don't know about where you are but when I've been on base, I haven't seen a BDU in months.

Also whats the FDU?  Is that what you call the BBDU?

Distinctive Field Uniform.

who else do you know that calls the BBDU the "DFU" ?  I've never heard anyone call it taht.

It is called the CAP Distinctive Field Uniform or just Field Uniform in the regs.  It is never called the Blue BDU.

However, many people do call it the Blue BDU in everyday use.  It's more a descriptive name than a nomenclature.  However, it is NOT the official name.

I try to call it the Field Uniform in official matters, but do find myself calling it the Blue BDU.

[JayT]

You know, if they would just rename the organization "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary", it would solve a LOT of problems that we have and the USCG Aux apparently does not.   But for several reasons, they will not, and perhaps should not.   T'would be interesting, tho.

Do you mean change our statues back to Air Force Auxiliary? Because I don't think changing our name would solve much of anything.

Yeah, I don't know many people who call it by its proper name. But DFU it is.

[FW]

You know, if they would just rename the organization "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary", it would solve a LOT of problems that we have and the USCG Aux apparently does not.   But for several reasons, they will not, and perhaps should not.   T'would be interesting, tho.

The name "Civil Air Patrol"  has been with us since day 1.  That's 1 Dec 1941.

We've been the Auxiliary of the USAF since 1948.   It would take another act of Congress to change our name and I don't think we want to get involved with that now.  

Our history is quite different from the USCGAux.  They have some advantages and some disadvantages compared to CAP and, I think, we are comparing apples to carrots.