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Incident w/Police

Started by ♠SARKID♠, February 29, 2008, 06:48:12 AM

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♠SARKID♠

I know we have a few police here, so let me pose this question.  Why is it that whenever I encounter a police officer, they refuse to communicate with me?  I ask this because of an incident at work today.  I'm a manager at a Piggly Wiggly.  About 15 minutes before closing, two squad cars park themselves right in front of our building, lights flashing.  As manager in charge, I walked outside to try and find out why they were there.  As far as I could tell we weren't being robbed, and if we were, the thieves were being dang subtle about it.

I stood outside the door, about 5 feet from the front squad, and stared at the officer inside.  After he noticed me, he just kept on doing what he was doing inside the car.  Now don't get me wrong, I completely understand that an officer has plenty of things to do on a stop that require his/her attention.  My step-mom is a retired officer and I've heard the ins and outs of what goes on.  But why can't the officer just crack the window, let me know why I have two squads parked in front of my store, and then go back to what he was doing?  I deduced later that it was a traffic stop, and the person pulled into our lot.

But I think that they owe me an explanation as to what was going on.  Did our security alarm go off?  Did a customer call 911 and I not know about it?
I would have been perfectly happy with "just a traffic stop, nothing to worry about."  "Okay, thanks officer."
Instead he was oblivious to me.  This isn't an isolated case either.  Any time that I've tried to get a sitrep that I deserve I get the same treatment.

Its no secret that a lot of people don't like the police (I do, its in the family, and I greatly appreciate what they do).  Perhaps some of that dislike comes from the attitudes that people receive from them.  I fully understand that professionalism and presence is key, but something like this is just rude.

What I'm getting at is, why do I consistently get treated this way?


I don't mean to make any offense by this either.  Like I said, I greatly appreciate what law enforcement does.  In fact, let me take this chance to thank our LE officers here on CAPTalk and everywhere for your dedication and service to your respective communities and the country as a whole.  My hats off to you all!

afgeo4

Hey, I've had negative experiences too. Everyone has. Ego trips aren't reserved for random CAP officers. They happen everywhere. It's sad that our police officers often feel that they're above citizens and sometimes above the law, but it happens. Certainly doesn't happen all the time though.

However... I do tend to come to the conclusion that cops feel that they own the city. From their standpoint of patrol they probably do. Remember, cops carry their badges and weapons when off duty too and they tend not to be subject to vehicle rules/laws either. Cops don't ticket cops usually.

Here in NYC it's a huge problem. Cops have illegal tints, go through red lights, harrass store owners and teenagers, and generally don't behave too well. And that's just off duty! In fact, in my experience, the more identifiable they are (marked car, uniform) the more considerate they are.

It is what it is.  Certainly not all cops behave that way, but I would say most cops do. The attitude tends to make them better cops in bad situations and it comes with the job. However, I find that the most experienced officers in specialized units tend to be the most civil.
GEORGE LURYE

PA Guy

So someone who is being pulled over by the police decides to pull into the parking lot of a store.  The store manager walks out and "stares" at the officer and somehow expects the officer to intuitively know that the manager would like an explanation of what is going on? Sounds like the manager  has a communication problem.  I'm thinking that if the incident had involved your store, alarm system or a 911 call from your store the officer would have been asking for the manager and asking questions.  Not responding to some guy standing in a parking lot staring at him is understandable.  If the manager had approached the officer and identified himself as the manager and asked if there was a problem he would stand a better chance of getting an answer.

How does the officer know you are the manager and not just some lookeloo or both?  Or if the officer knows you are the manager and you don't ask a question how is he/she supposed to know you have a question especially since the veh. stop didn't involve your store? 

I would be careful about throwing around words like "deserve".  What you think you "deserve" and what the police can tell you are often two very different things.

Sorry, I just don't see a problem with the police here.


♠SARKID♠

Well, generally when somebody is staring at you its a good sign they want your attention.  I've never stared at someone just for the jollies of it.  Second, its a parking lot with cars in it.  How am I supposed to know that he's pulled someone over?  Its a stick in a bundle; I only learned because the car in question left with the squads.  Third, yes, I do deserve an explanation.  It scared a few customers, concerned the employees, and we're guaranteed to have a mass load of questions tomorrow morning about what happened (small town, word spreads quick about the dumbest things).  Not to mention they're making the stop on private property.  While that may not be anything wrong legally, I think it would be good practice to notify the owner/person in charge at the time as to why they were there.  I'm not going to go up to the car; I have no idea as to whether or not he's in "defense mode" and due to our lower crime rate the cops around here get overly excited and a tad overzealous in their actions, even in the smallest things.  How does he know I'm the manager?  Employee status is negligible, but the big PIGGLY WIGGLY SHOP THE PIG plastered on the front of my work uniform is a hint.

PA Guy

Stop portraying yourself as some kind of victim.  Staring at an officer does not mean you want their attention in an officer's mind. They get stared at all the time. That close to closing time I bet there weren't that many cars in the lot either.   And as far as deserving an explanation, how was the officer supposed to know you wanted an explanation since you didn't ask but only stared.  They didn't make the stop on private property,  the person they were stopping pulled onto private property, happens all the time.  And since you said you were only 5 feet from the officer you could have asked to approach the unit.  And as far as your work uniform how does he know you aren't the box boy out taking a smoke or collecting carts just before closing.

No, you aren't a victim here.

Flying Pig

I think a reasonable explanation to your question is that just like any other profession, we in law enforcement hire from the human race.  And in that hiring process, we tend to find a few jackass's.  Given your explanation of the events, I think what you did was 100% appropriate.  An officer should know that if he and his partner are sitting in front of your store with their overheads (red and blues) chances are, people are waiting inside until its safe to leave.

If an employee walks out, your exactly right, "Traffic stop, no problem."  or "Murder suspect, keep everyone inside."  Even a simple thumbs up or "a-okay" sign. On your end, maybe a wave and a thumbs up from you might give him the hint.  I like to think that as an officer, I know the difference from a customer vs. the store manager.  Do you deserve an explanation?  Not really, would it be nice?  Sure.  Maybe the guy wasnt being rude.  He might have just been trying to get finished and get to Dennys for the Grand Slam breakfast, or may have just finished a nasty call minutes before making the stop.

If they don't help you out, call the PD public number and just tell them your the manager of a store and you want to know if everything is OK.

Now, why do YOU get treated this way?  I don't know.  Maybe they shop at your competition?

stillamarine

Quote from: PA Guy on February 29, 2008, 08:46:24 AM
Stop portraying yourself as some kind of victim.  Staring at an officer does not mean you want their attention in an officer's mind. They get stared at all the time. That close to closing time I bet there weren't that many cars in the lot either.   And as far as deserving an explanation, how was the officer supposed to know you wanted an explanation since you didn't ask but only stared.  They didn't make the stop on private property,  the person they were stopping pulled onto private property, happens all the time.  And since you said you were only 5 feet from the officer you could have asked to approach the unit.  And as far as your work uniform how does he know you aren't the box boy out taking a smoke or collecting carts just before closing.

No, you aren't a victim here.

Your a friendly guy huh?

Back to the topic, eh should of just come out and asked the guy. I've had employees of businesses come out and ask me what was going on, and if it wasn't anything life threatening and I had a moment I'd explain. If it was something a bit more pressing I'd ask them to step back inside and when I was finished I'd come speak to them.

Heck what if that officer was looking for a suspect and our friendly manager there happen to see him inside his store just minutes ago?
Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com

DNall

What happens when he has to answer your questions, takes his focus off the stop, and guy shoots both of you in the head. Even if he knew you had a question & even if he had an idea what it was, he needs to not talk to you. The only reason he might choose to talk to you is so you'll go away & get out of the potential kill zone, for which he'd be very annoyed. If it involves your store then you'll know about it when they're ready to tell you. In the meantime, it's none of your business. You can check with your people to make sure there's not a problem they know about, but otherwise you mind your business. Maybe if you keep your distance, and I mean really far away, then you'll be able to figure out what's happening & might be able to talk to the officer after it's over.

JohnKachenmeister

I spent 25 years as a cop, the last 7 as a traffic cop, making dozens of traffic stops every day.  Let me give you another perspective.

1.  You stop a car, and the driver pulls into a private parking lot.  That is a huge RED FLAG.  That means that the driver knows that he is about to be arrested, and is trying to minimize his damage by placing the car in a position where it does not need to be towed.

2.  If a backup unit is available, I would then simply advise that he is "Pulling into the Piggly-Wiggly lot," and the other officers would know that this stop is no longer routine.  A second unit would show up, as I would if another officer initiated the stop.

3.  It is NOT unusual for people to stop and watch police activity.  That would explain the success of the TV show "Cops."  A Piggly-Wiggly employee taking a short break from work to watch someone get arrested would not be such an event that I would think it necessary to explain what was happening to him.  If he did not contact me and ask if there was an emergency, I would assume that he was merely curious, and seeking some reality entertainment.

4.  Lastly, a traffic stop is a busy thing, especially if the suspect's actions have triggered a higher level of suspicion.  The officer not only has to write out the citation, watch the suspect, watch for any confederates that approach the suspect, watch for the suspect to try to discard drugs or access a weapon, he must also call in on the radio and be prepared to write down important information that might come in from a background check.

If someone came to me and asked what was going on, I would explain.  But otherwise, I would assume that he was merely a curious bystander.

Since the crews did not approach the store tactically with weapons drawn, there wasn't much to worry about!
Another former CAP officer

davidsinn

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 29, 2008, 02:21:14 PM
I spent 25 years as a cop, the last 7 as a traffic cop, making dozens of traffic stops every day.  Let me give you another perspective.

1.  You stop a car, and the driver pulls into a private parking lot.  That is a huge RED FLAG.  That means that the driver knows that he is about to be arrested, and is trying to minimize his damage by placing the car in a position where it does not need to be towed.

Perhaps the person merely wanted to get off the road to minimize the danger to the officers from traffic? If I had the ability to do that I would. Here in Indiana we have on average one ISP Officer get killed a year by traffic on routine stops,
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

jeders

Quote from: davidsinn on February 29, 2008, 03:17:51 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 29, 2008, 02:21:14 PM
I spent 25 years as a cop, the last 7 as a traffic cop, making dozens of traffic stops every day.  Let me give you another perspective.

1.  You stop a car, and the driver pulls into a private parking lot.  That is a huge RED FLAG.  That means that the driver knows that he is about to be arrested, and is trying to minimize his damage by placing the car in a position where it does not need to be towed.

Perhaps the person merely wanted to get off the road to minimize the danger to the officers from traffic? If I had the ability to do that I would. Here in Indiana we have on average one ISP Officer get killed a year by traffic on routine stops,

Every time I've been pulled over I keep going until I find a safe place. Not because I want to run or I expect to be arrested, but because I'm trying to make the stop safe for me and the officer pulling me over.

But I imagine, for every one of us that try to be considerate and make the stop safer/easier for the officer, there's probably someone who pulls off to make things harder on the officer, or easier on himself.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

jimmydeanno

Whew...when I read the title of this thread I thought you were having altercations with Sting - I thought maybe he was putting on the red light!

BTW, what's a piggly wiggly?
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

mynetdude

Yeah when I saw the topic, I thought there was some kind of argument or something ;)

Quote.  You stop a car, and the driver pulls into a private parking lot.  That is a huge RED FLAG.  That means that the driver knows that he is about to be arrested, and is trying to minimize his damage by placing the car in a position where it does not need to be towed.

I'm not a cop, but like several said its more of a safety thing... I have NEVER heard of a cop tell me or tell anyone else that it is not a good idea to go to a safe location (parking lot).  I think cops actually appreciate it IF you do get to a safe area where they can talk to you and so forth, for me I would rather park off the road as I am hard of hearing and cars whizzing by make it difficult to communicate with the officer in question.

Just a few weeks ago OSP pulled someone over, they were parked on the side of my house in front of a business building (I live next door to a business office), by the time I noticed there was a cop outside the car had gone but he still had his lights on and that being OSP I knew he was there because of a trffic stop he had finished up.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the job the LE do but I'm not exactly thrilled with them either with their behavior and their actions sometimes along with ignorance IMHO I guess you can say I don't like them very much (does that mean I have an all out hate for them everytime I see them? No).

The first time I get pulled over and arrested because I pulled into a parking lot as a RED flag... is the last time they will see their job that is how much dislike I have for them.

And btw... I know that every state law is different, however just because you get pulled over/arrested on private property does not mean your vehicle will not get towed because they WILL tow it (what do you think, are they stupid not to tow it? They MAKE money on impounds! At least a certain percentage).

BTW I didn't go outside and ask the cop if there was a problem, at first I was going to because I couldn't figure out why/what and I couldn't tell which he was, OSP or county until I had a better look and he wasn't anywhere to be seen as I could not tell if he was in the car (most likely in the car).  Had there been officers walking around and such I probably would have asked but I didn't feel the need to so I went on with my life.

Brad

I'm a dispatcher with my campus police department, and so I hear a bit of the "inside perspective" as well. It's different when you're a cop, you have to know how to read people and treat everyone as suspect until you can resolve a situation because you DON'T know what Billy there might do next. Almost every officer I've known says that when two squad cars are facing opposite directions and chatting right next to each other, DO NOT walk up to them. They are discussing a situation more than likely, and they position themselves like that not only for ease of conversation, but also to watch a combined 360 degree area around the car.

If you're unsure of what's going on still, like another poster said, call the dispatch office. I may not be able to give specifics, but if you give me some sort of credentials, I'll probably say that it's not a threat, it is a threat and the officers are advising you need to stay put/back/whatever, stuff like that.

We're not your enemies, it's just that communication is a two-way street, and many times the other person is the one who needs to make that first turn.
Brad Lee
Maj, CAP
Assistant Deputy Chief of Staff, Communications
Mid-Atlantic Region
K4RMN

Smokey

Like Kack....I've been at this job a long time....36 years this month.

I also teach officer survival tactics around the  country, co authored a book on it, etc.

On a vehicle stop my focus needs to be on the stopped veh. I may have stopped him for a traffic violation or because he was acting suspiciously.  During the stop is not the time for me to be distracted with folks who want to know what is going on, want directions to Disneyland, or want to discuss how their neighbors dog poops on his lawn.

What may seem to the citizenry as something simple may actually be very serious. Too many of my brother & sister officers have their names on a memorial wall in D.C. on an incident that started as a vehicle stop.  I teach officers to focus on the stop---yes we are also scanning the area for other hazards or suspects, but distractions can give a suspect the opportunity to attack.

If you were concerned for your employees and customers , when the officer looked at you you could have politely pointed to him and given the "OK" sign with a questioned look.  Saying as if "Is everything OK"   He will appreciate your concern for him and if the situation needs to involve you, he will let you know.

Please understand if we don't deal with you at the moment...we are not being rude but are practicing officer safety & survival. Plus like Kack said, often people like to watch. What we do is usually more interesting that what they do in their everyday lives.

BTW.....Please don't choose a safe spot to pull over if being stopped by the police.  We are trained to know how to make a safe stop. We need to choose the location. If you fail to stop when we signal, we get real suspicious as if you are trying to hide something, are wanted for something, or are leading us into a trap.  By failing to stop when we signal, you may well be greeted in a more forceful manner---possibly at gunpoint. Plus the law says you must pull over when signalled. Not at your leisure.

Anyone who wants to know more---please feel free to ask here or PM.
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
To err is human, to blame someone else shows good management skills.

mynetdude

QuoteBTW.....Please don't choose a safe spot to pull over if being stopped by the police.  We are trained to know how to make a safe stop. We need to choose the location. If you fail to stop when we signal, we get real suspicious as if you are trying to hide something, are wanted for something, or are leading us into a trap.  By failing to stop when we signal, you may well be greeted in a more forceful manner---possibly at gunpoint. Plus the law says you must pull over when signalled. Not at your leisure

This is a very valid point, yeah don't lead the officer for 5 miles... by then you'll have plenty of them behind you.  But the point is, when you are signaled you do need to find a reasonable place to stop and if that place isn't safe that doesn't matter it just needs to be reasonable (like don't double park, or block someone's driveway, etc)  The officers have flashing lights, that should be ENOUGH to alert other drivers to be careful when passing by.

I have seen trafifc stops where they are partially blocking a traffic lane, no it may not be safe but it is in a reasonable location.   I got pulled over 6 months ago, I was at a red light, my intended direction was to go straight and because I was still at a red light I had time to assess where to go my choice were:

A) go straight, find a parking space (there were lots of cars parked and I didn't see anywhere where a cop could also park)

B) there was a nice tiny parking lot just off to my left turn, I chose the parking lot as it was the SHORTEST distance from where I was flagged at and it was SAFE and it was reasonable... otherwise I'd be going several blocks down the street looking for parking I don't think that makes much sense.

Sure the officer could have done the stop right there at the red light if he really wanted/needed to I suppose, then forcing traffic to go around him; but he didn't... he waited for me to proceed through a green light and park somewhere.

flyerthom

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 29, 2008, 02:21:14 PM
I spent 25 years as a cop, the last 7 as a traffic cop, making dozens of traffic stops every day.  Let me give you another perspective.

1.  You stop a car, and the driver pulls into a private parking lot.  That is a huge RED FLAG.  That means that the driver knows that he is about to be arrested, and is trying to minimize his damage by placing the car in a position where it does not need to be towed.

2.  If a backup unit is available, I would then simply advise that he is "Pulling into the Piggly-Wiggly lot," and the other officers would know that this stop is no longer routine.  A second unit would show up, as I would if another officer initiated the stop.

3.  It is NOT unusual for people to stop and watch police activity.  That would explain the success of the TV show "Cops."  A Piggly-Wiggly employee taking a short break from work to watch someone get arrested would not be such an event that I would think it necessary to explain what was happening to him.  If he did not contact me and ask if there was an emergency, I would assume that he was merely curious, and seeking some reality entertainment.

4.  Lastly, a traffic stop is a busy thing, especially if the suspect's actions have triggered a higher level of suspicion.  The officer not only has to write out the citation, watch the suspect, watch for any confederates that approach the suspect, watch for the suspect to try to discard drugs or access a weapon, he must also call in on the radio and be prepared to write down important information that might come in from a background check.

If someone came to me and asked what was going on, I would explain.  But otherwise, I would assume that he was merely a curious bystander.

Since the crews did not approach the store tactically with weapons drawn, there wasn't much to worry about!

John,

Out here in Vegas, Metro PD has begun to advise people to pull in to parking lots that are well lit because they've had a rash of fake police jacking people up. I'm not sure but rumor has it Metro will only do a traffic stop now with a marked vehicle so if an unmarked vehicle is attempting a stop metro is recommending driving to a 7-11 and pulling in there. There is an advantage of lights and store cameras.
TC

jeders

Quote from: mynetdude on February 29, 2008, 05:56:27 PM
The officers have flashing lights, that should be ENOUGH to alert other drivers to be careful when passing by.


It's also enough to turn a 1 car wreck into an 8 car pile-up. I'm just sayin.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

JohnKachenmeister

Well, everyone's experience is different.

If a car is parked legally, and there is no legal reason to impound it, then we were not supposed to tow the car.  Criminals know this.  Criminals also know before I do that they have a warrant out for them, and they are usually the first to realize that they do not have a driver's license.

If you stop, and the officer wants you to pull over somewhere safer, he will tell you to move your car.

Also, you don't get arrested because the officer has heightened suspicion.  Don't be stupid.  You get arrested for breaking the law.  But if I have heightened suspicion, I am going to concentrate more on the suspect vehicle to the excusion of the curious Piggly-Wiggly manager.

That is how one survives to be like me... Retired in Florida with time to fart around on the internet.
Another former CAP officer

brasda91

Wade Dillworth, Maj.
Paducah Composite Squadron
www.kywgcap.org/ky011