Could somone explain to me "Up or Out"?

[Nomex Maximus]

A question I have been curious about for a long time but have never heard explained. I am curious about military officers' career paths. I have heard that there is a policy or practice called "Up or Out". What is this? Could one of the AD or retired military explain this? Or Suppose one goes through ROTC in college and becomes an officer. How long does that person get to continue as an active or reserve duty officer? How does one get promoted? Can one change specialties once one becomes an officer? 

-- Nomex

[PHall]

Quick and dirty, you either get promoted to the next grade or you get the boot.

You usually get two opportunities to get promoted. "On-time" and "above the zone" for those who didn't get promoted on-time.
If you don't get promoted by the Above The Zone selection board then you're out the door.

It's actually much, much more complicated then this. But this was the "Executive Summary".

[A.Member]

^ Yep.  What he said.

A person has a certain amount of time to make grade.  If they don't make the grade in that time, you are separated from the service.

[Nomex Maximus]

So if I am a new 2LT in the Air Force, how long do I have to move up? What would I have to do to advance? Or, what would I have to do or fail to do to get booted?  How many people get booted?

[Nomex Maximus]

And in particular, what is the military reasoning behind this policy?

[ColonelJack]

I can't speak to the military policy, beyond one of "if you aren't ready or able to accept higher responsibility, then see you later," but the basics of up-and-out only apply once one has been promoted to (I think) major.

All second lieutenants make first lieutenant (unless they quit or have UCMJ issues).  All first lieutenants make captain.  That happens during the first three-four years of an officer's career anyway.  Those who re-up are (check me on this, AD guys) going to make major as vacancies come up, but after that -- you either get selected by a promotion board or else.  Two pass-overs and you're finished when your contracted years are up.

(It sounds right, anyway.)

Jack

[AlphaSigOU]

So if I am a new 2LT in the Air Force, how long do I have to move up? What would I have to do to advance? Or, what would I have to do or fail to do to get booted?  How many people get booted?

Ahem... the reg nazis would string you up for using that sacrilegious Army abbreviation for 2d Lt.   (Nichts mich, boss! )

Promotions to 1st Lt in the USAF are on a 'fully qualified' basis: if there's no bar to your promotion such as an Article 15, UIF (Unfavorable Information File) you take the golden tarnish off your bars 24 months after commissioning. 24 months after pinning on 1st Lt, under the same 'fully qualified' rule, one pins on Capt in the USAF.

How to get kicked out: fail to meet weight management standards, fail - repeatedly - physical training standards, get a DUI (an automatic Article 15 - tusually the kiss of death for further officer career advancement), intentionally do something to get decertified from PRP (Personnel Reliability Program), among other little things that can explode into big things.

[Eclipse]

And in particular, what is the military reasoning behind this policy?

The exact issue we have in CAP - career Lt's with no ambition just "hanging around", "up and out" is especially prevalent with commanders - you would not see someone who held a respective command rejoining the ranks in that same command.  When your time is up, you go "other".

Unlike CAP where members go up to a certain level, plateau, and then have to go somewhere, and sometimes its just to the back of the line they just led - the good ones get in step and keep moving, the poor ones become naysayer problems.

[mikeylikey]

So if I am a new 2LT in the Air Force, how long do I have to move up? What would I have to do to advance? Or, what would I have to do or fail to do to get booted?  How many people get booted?

Ha.....just being a 2nd Lt in the AF could mean you get the boot.  The recent Reduction in Force saw many new Officers given the "you should have joined the Army" speech.  I actually work with another Officer who did the Blue to Green program for AF Officers to switch to the Army.  Now that being said......you had to be rather "ate up" to get RIF'ed!!  I think no performance or bad reviews in the AF meant you were a candidate for "Commission Termination" or "Appointment take-away" (both terms I tottally made up, I don't know how the AF termed getting rid of Officers last year).

[PHall]

The usual timeline for Officer promotions in the Air Force:
Promote to 1st Lt after 2 years.
Promote to Capt after 4 years. Up to this point the promotions are almost automatic.
Promote to Major at 10 years.
Promote to Lt Col at 16 years.
Promote to Colonel at 20 years.
The promotions above Captain are increasingly more competitive the higher you go.
The selection rate for Lieutenant Colonels going for Colonel is only about 30% or so. It may be even lower then that.
Which is why you see a lot of retired Lt Col's. They didn't make Col and decided to call it a career.

[SarDragon]

RealMilitary® promotions are billet driven. There are way more E-3 and O-1 billets than there are E-9 and O-6 billets. Promotion quotas are determined by the number of available billets. If someone can't promote in a given amount of time, they are holding a billet unnecessarily, possibly preventing someone more qualified from moving into that billet.

Relatively current figures here.

BTW, RIF (Reduction in Force) is a specific program that isn't necessarily adverse to one's career. I worked with a couple of AF NCOs who were former officers that ended up being excess to their fields and were offered E-6 so they cold finish their 20 years.

[davedove]

And in particular, what is the military reasoning behind this policy?

The exact issue we have in CAP - career Lt's with no ambition just "hanging around", "up and out" is especially prevalent with commanders - you would not see someone who held a respective command rejoining the ranks in that same command.  When your time is up, you go "other".

Unlike CAP where members go up to a certain level, plateau, and then have to go somewhere, and sometimes its just to the back of the line they just led - the good ones get in step and keep moving, the poor ones become naysayer problems.

I believe this policy was developed during the downsizing period of the military.  It was one more way to get people out of the service.  Basically, if the person didn't want to advance, the military said it didn't need them.  The enlisted side has similar policies.

That has developed to the more current attitude that the military really wants the hard chargers, those who want to be the best at what they do.

There is also a more immediate practical reason for this too.  In a combat environment, everyone must be prepared to step up and fill the next higher role.  You never know when your superior officer (or NCO) will be disabled and you're in charge.  The military wants ALL of it's people to be able to do that.

[capchiro]

Yeah, RIF is not a good deal.  Knew a Major that was running Base Civil engineering and got riffed.  Nothing like working as an E-6 for people that you have been commanding in the past.  Great for ego and job satisfaction.   

[davedove]

You also get situations where you have ten good people but only five slots for them.  In this case the military is going to pick the best of the ten (hopefully ) and they're going to lose five good people.  It's unfortunate, but it does happen sometimes.

[Dragoon]

Back to the up or out thing...

There are maximum number of years of commissioned service established for each grade.  The goal is to move up before you hit the max.  If you do hit the max, yer out.

To ensure this occurs, the services generally have a two strike policy on promotion.  Meaning if you're up for it twice and aren't selected, you are seperated right then, as opposed to waiting until the max time.

However, this policy is always in flux.  In the Army, they've raised the max number of years or 04 and 05.  And they've allowed twice pass-over folks to apply to remain on active duty in until that max.

It's all about filling the slots, keeping the leaders young and agile, and avoiding stagnation at the top.

And it keeps all the junior field grades nice and nervous.   

[dougsnow]

Dont you also have an education requirement?

To make 2d LT, you obviously need the Bachelors degree, but to make beyond Major, you need a graduate degree?

[Skyray]

Dont you also have an education requirement?

To make 2d LT, you obviously need the Bachelors degree, but to make beyond Major, you need a graduate degree?

I think that varies with the time and service.  When I was a 2/Lt my Colonel called me in for a discussion of my career path.  I was a cadet and commissioned without a degree.  He told me that I was a hot item, and that I would make Lieutenant Colonel at warp speed, after which I would hit a wall whether I subsequently earned my degree or not.  I appreciate his candor, and I really enjoyed being an airline pilot.

[mikeylikey]

Don't you also have an education requirement?

To make 2d LT, you obviously need the Bachelors degree, but to make beyond Major, you need a graduate degree?

I think that varies with the time and service.  When I was a 2/Lt my Colonel called me in for a discussion of my career path.  I was a cadet and commissioned without a degree.  He told me that I was a hot item, and that I would make Lieutenant Colonel at warp speed, after which I would hit a wall whether I subsequently earned my degree or not.  I appreciate his candor, and I really enjoyed being an airline pilot.

??  How long ago were you Commissioned?  I think since 1951 every service says that all Officers no matter what commissioning source, a bachelors degree was required.  The services did allow up to a 2 year window to complete degree requirements for OCS/OTS and Reserve Officers coming from Military Junior Colleges.  I think that is still how it works today.

[Flying Pig]

I wasnt an officer, but enlisted is the same way.  In the Marines, you have 12 years to make E-6 SSgt...otherwise you packin your bags.

[Skyray]

??  How long ago were you Commissioned?  I think since 1951 every service says that all Officers no matter what commissioning source, a bachelors degree was required.  The services did allow up to a 2 year window to complete degree requirements for OCS/OTS and Reserve Officers coming from Military Junior Colleges.  I think that is still how it works today.

My date of rank as a Second Lieutenant was 17 October 1961.  And I was a long way from the last Aviation Cadet.  I am in regular communication with some who were commissioned in 1964 and 1965.  The Colonel was right, I was deep selected for Major at eight years.  I think that the service was in transition at that time, and the Colonel was mildly complaining about it.  Kind of like I hear post-doctoral students today talking about their SAT score--what difference does it make, what have you done with the opportunities since then.  There is actually a club at Southern Methodist where the criteria for admission is having a higher SAT score than George W. Bush.  It's not a very exclusive club, but most of them have not accomplished what he has, either.