Online gun store gives Law Enforcment Discount to CAP members

[RNOfficer]

I found an online gun store that has low prices AND gives the LAW ENFORCEMENT discount to CAP members. Of course, the gun must be sent to your local FFL for paperwork and pickup. Takes credit cards and gives 3% discount for "cash" which includes money order and personal checks.

Price example Ruger LC9S 9MM 3.12 7RD BL $373 MINUS LEO discount. Ships free.

Message me for more info.

[thebeggerpie]

 I have a real fishy feeling about this...

[PHall]

How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

[Damron]

I have a real fishy feeling about this...

About as fishy as me handing you a coupon for a Big Mac.   Why do you say that?

[abdsp51]

How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

Yup.  Honestly I see an ethical issue here too.  We are not first responders by any means and I'd be wary of any onlinediscounts when it comes to firearms. 

Plus your local FFL shop fees would probably chew up anything saved by a discount anyway.

[Holding Pattern]

How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

Yup.  Honestly I see an ethical issue here too.  We are not first responders by any means and I'd be wary of any onlinediscounts when it comes to firearms. 

Plus your local FFL shop fees would probably chew up anything saved by a discount anyway.

I don't see the ethical issue. CAP isn't going to be taking these firearms and wouldn't be buying them or holding title.

[Damron]

How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

Yup.  Honestly I see an ethical issue here too.  We are not first responders by any means and I'd be wary of any onlinediscounts when it comes to firearms. 

Plus your local FFL shop fees would probably chew up anything saved by a discount anyway.

What's the ethical concern?  A retailer has chosen to extend a discount to CAP members. 

[abdsp51]

How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

Yup.  Honestly I see an ethical issue here too.  We are not first responders by any means and I'd be wary of any online discounts when it comes to firearms. 

Plus your local FFL shop fees would probably chew up anything saved by a discount anyway.

What's the ethical concern?  A retailer has chosen to extend a discount to CAP members.

They can offer a different type of discount.  Sorry but we are not LE in any shape or fashion and taking advantage of it cheapens it to those who perform that function.  I can tell you that if I was still wearing a badge and was doing business with this company I would no longer shop with them and advise my friends and family to do the same. 

The point of most LE discounts is to show gratitude and to lessen the cost of equipment since there are agencies across the country who do not issue firearms for their officers. 

I'm willing to bet this came about because someone hyped up what we do....

[RNOfficer]

How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

Yup.  Honestly I see an ethical issue here too.  We are not first responders by any means and I'd be wary of any online discounts when it comes to firearms. 

Plus your local FFL shop fees would probably chew up anything saved by a discount anyway.

What's the ethical concern?  A retailer has chosen to extend a discount to CAP members.

They can offer a different type of discount.  Sorry but we are not LE in any shape or fashion and taking advantage of it cheapens it to those who perform that function.  I can tell you that if I was still wearing a badge and was doing business with this company I would no longer shop with them and advise my friends and family to do the same. 

..

Sorry, I should have been clearer. This is a "professional discount" which is the same amount as a "law enforcement discount" Available to:

    Active or Retired Military personnel - all branches
    National Guard personnel - all branches
    Military Reserve personnel - all branches
    CAP - Civil Air Patrol

    Fire Fighters - including volunteers
    Paramedics and EMTs

    TSA Employees
    Commercial Pilots
    Federal Flight Deck Officers

    Court Judges
    District and Deputy District Attorneys

    All sworn or retired Law Enforcement Officers - city, county, state, and federal
    All Corrections Officers
    State Licensed Security Companies

[Damron]

How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

Yup.  Honestly I see an ethical issue here too.  We are not first responders by any means and I'd be wary of any online discounts when it comes to firearms. 

Plus your local FFL shop fees would probably chew up anything saved by a discount anyway.

What's the ethical concern?  A retailer has chosen to extend a discount to CAP members.

They can offer a different type of discount.  Sorry but we are not LE in any shape or fashion and taking advantage of it cheapens it to those who perform that function.  I can tell you that if I was still wearing a badge and was doing business with this company I would no longer shop with them and advise my friends and family to do the same. 

The point of most LE discounts is to show gratitude and to lessen the cost of equipment since there are agencies across the country who do not issue firearms for their officers. 

I'm willing to bet this came about because someone hyped up what we do....

It takes some mental gymnastics to find an ethical issue here.  Without any evidence, you are suggesting that a retailer must be ignorant of the nature of CAP because he might have tossed CAP in the LE or military category.

CAP has negotiated a number of discount for its members.  These discounts often show up as a "military discount".  Do you want to waste the time of the retail employee, explaining that the the discount should be placed in its own unique category?  They don't care, they are using the discount code they were told to use.

It's been 20 years since I've heard of a LE agency that requires an officer to purchase their primary firearm - and I know a bunch of cops and a bunch of gun retailers.

Do you chase down military personnel that saluted you by mistake in passing, explaining the nature and status of CAP, or do you just return the salute?   

By the way, the primary purpose of most discounts is to increase revenue through increased sales in a competitive environment.  Most companies that offer military discounts or LE discounts also offer discounts to senior citizens.  So, the respect towards LE and military isn't any greater than that directed towards old folks ... that might be horrible people.

[kwe1009]

Also, I highly doubt that CAP actually negotiated this.  The company simply chose to include CAP in a discount program they offer.  Many companies do this and I don't see any ethical issue or anything fishy about it.  I would have an issue if the company didn't specify CAP and a person was trying to convince them that CAP is part of the Air Force and should get their military discount.  This doesn't seem to be the case here.

[Damron]

Also, I highly doubt that CAP actually negotiated this.  The company simply chose to include CAP in a discount program they offer.  Many companies do this and I don't see any ethical issue or anything fishy about it.  I would have an issue if the company didn't specify CAP and a person was trying to convince them that CAP is part of the Air Force and should get their military discount.  This doesn't seem to be the case here.

I wasn't suggesting that CAP was involved.  I was pointing out that even when CAP is involved we end up in categories that are obviously inaccurate.

[abdsp51]

It takes some mental gymnastics to find an ethical issue here.  Without any evidence, you are suggesting that a retailer must be ignorant of the nature of CAP because he might have tossed CAP in the LE or military category.

CAP has negotiated a number of discount for its members.  These discounts often show up as a "military discount".  Do you want to waste the time of the employee explaining that the the discount should be placed in its own unique category?  They don't care, they are using the discount code they were told to use.

It's been 20 years since I've heard of a LE agency that requires an officer to purchase their primary firearm - and I know a bunch of cops and a bunch of gun retailers.

Do you chase down military personnel that saluted you by mistake in passing, explaining the nature and status of CAP, or do you just return the salute?   

By the way, the primary purpose of most discounts is to increase revenue through increased sales in a competitive environment.  Most companies that offer military discounts or LE discounts also offer discounts to senior citizens.  So, the respect towards LE and military isn't any greater than that directed towards old folks ... that might be horrible people.

CAP is not nor ever will be part of the military and therefore should not be lumped into the same category as the military for discounts. 

Most places may not care and are just doing what they are told but having CAP receive a military discount when it is not the military helps to keep the cycle going of what members think we are entitled to.

In the past 10-15 years when I was looking at agencies to apply for there were few that would have required me to buy my own equipment to include firearm. 

One I don't chase down anyone who salutes because for one it just doesn't happen and two if it did I just carry on. 

Most gun shops don't have a lot of competition when it comes to sales and we can hoot and holler all day long about different discounts the purpose etc.  Bottom line CAP is not the military and should not be asking for or taking advantage of military discounts.

[GroundHawg]

Buds has been giving this discount for YEARS....

I own a gun store and sell gear to CAP member at cost and have yet to have anyone complain.

This might be the first time I have ever heard of people complaining about a store that values their service so much that they offer them a discount. I swear everyday that I have seen it all and that nothing can surprise me. Yet everyday, I am shocked. Today it is this post. I cant even...

[Holding Pattern]

How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

Yup.  Honestly I see an ethical issue here too.  We are not first responders by any means

Please be sure to let the National First Responders Organization know: http://www.nfro.org/who.html

[abdsp51]

How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

Yup.  Honestly I see an ethical issue here too.  We are not first responders by any means

Please be sure to let the National First Responders Organization know: http://www.nfro.org/who.html

Got something better?  We are not first responders...

[Damron]

I'm thinking I need to cancel  my AF Association and NFRO memberships.  I don't think these associations have categorized CAP correctly.   To not cancel my memberships would be disrespectful to first responders and those that have served in the AF.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Only one word I have after this message.

Silly.

Another word.

Childish.

I should stop now or I am going to be banned from this site.

[PHall]

Only one word I have after this message.

Silly.

Another word.

Childish.

I should stop now or I am going to be banned from this site.

Luis, they would never ban you.  Give you detention maybe, but no ban!

[Damron]

Only one word I have after this message.

Silly.

Another word.

Childish.

I should stop now or I am going to be banned from this site.

Words have meaning. Identify the items you think are silly or childish.  At what point did you lose your confidence?

[Holding Pattern]

How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

Yup.  Honestly I see an ethical issue here too.  We are not first responders by any means

Please be sure to let the National First Responders Organization know: http://www.nfro.org/who.html

Got something better?  We are not first responders...

You should let them know. They think otherwise.

[abdsp51]

How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

Yup.  Honestly I see an ethical issue here too.  We are not first responders by any means

Please be sure to let the National First Responders Organization know: http://www.nfro.org/who.html

Got something better?  We are not first responders...

You should let them know. They think otherwise.

Webster disagrees...  PLus a good chunk of entities on that list are not first responders...


Definition of first responder

    :  a person (as a police officer or an EMT) who is among those responsible for going immediately to the scene of an accident or emergency to provide assistance

[Holding Pattern]

How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

Yup.  Honestly I see an ethical issue here too.  We are not first responders by any means

Please be sure to let the National First Responders Organization know: http://www.nfro.org/who.html

Got something better?  We are not first responders...

You should let them know. They think otherwise.

Webster disagrees...  PLus a good chunk of entities on that list are not first responders...


Definition of first responder

    :  a person (as a police officer or an EMT) who is among those responsible for going immediately to the scene of an accident or emergency to provide assistance

Again, you should let the national organization representing them know that they are wrong.

You should also take care of HSPD-8.

Section 2d.

(d) The term "first responder" refers to those individuals who in the early stages of an incident are
responsible for the protection and preservation of life, property, evidence, and the environment, including
emergency response providers as defined in section 2 of the Homeland Security Act of 2002 (6 U.S.C.
101), as well as emergency management, public health, clinical care, public works, and other skilled
support personnel (such as equipment operators) that provide immediate support services during
prevention, response, and recovery operations.

6 U.S.C. § 101 - Definitions

(6) The term emergency response providers includes Federal, State, and local governmental and nongovernmental emergency public safety, fire, law enforcement, emergency response, emergency medical (including hospital emergency facilities), and related personnel, agencies, and authorities.

Note NGO emergency response qualifies.

[Luis R. Ramos]

...cancel  my AF Association and NFRO memberships. 

Silly!

I don't think these associations have categorized CAP correctly.

Childish. Unprofessional.

   To not cancel my memberships would be disrespectful to first responders and those that have served in the AF.

I worked for three years as an orderly at a hospital. Saw or had to deal at least with 10 bodies. Lots of spontaneous abortions. Had 3 years as an EMT, worked about 4 to 5 years with two volunteer ambulance corps. Have about 17 years as a CAP member, participated in about 5 missions.

I acknowledge that my experience is not as widespread nor as intense as others in this board. But I do feel if another association, entity, person, etc. wants to honor what we do, why do we question it?

Did you ever listen to the training we give? We may not want to salute a man military officer because we do not like him/her, but we do have to salute him/her anyway for what they represent???

Did you ever think that we may not necessarily agree with the President's policies and party, but we do salute him as the leader of the organization?

Did you ever think that Civil Air Patrol has as members:
1. Law enforcement (First Responders!)
2. Military (First Responders!)
3. Others also recognized as First Responders...
4. Many, many others that died working as First Responders...

When you post a message like you did on number 16 you insult all those members. And you insulted me.

[Damron]

Are you retarded or have a problem identifying sarcasm when you see it?  You might consider reading a thread further before you post.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Unfortunately digital written media does not has a sarcasm filter.

Face-to-face communications have other means where we are given clues to note when someone is using sarcasm.

Several other posters also answered your post. I guess they, with more or less experience on this board than I have, also could not detect your sarcasm...

What other insult will you have for them?

[Damron]

Now you are just full of it.  You didn't read the thread before posting.  If you had, we wouldn't have been victims to your word soup of a post. 

[KASSRCrashResearch]

Sorry but we are not LE in any shape or fashion and taking advantage of it cheapens it to those who perform that function.  I can tell you that if I was still wearing a badge and was doing business with this company I would no longer shop with them and advise my friends and family to do the same

Meh....as someone who thinks this thread is kind of hilarious  most "law enforcement" discounts are put towards anyone in a public service role.  I've had restaurants and the like try to give me their advertised "law enforcement" or "firefighter" discounts when I was wearing a shirt from an agency or unit that is neither of those.  I don't class CAP ES as anything other than first responders.  There may be a really, really long response time most of the time but anyone sticking their neck out to help anyone else in the initial stage of an emergency is a first responder.  It doesn't make me- or anyone else who is acting like anything other than a petulant child- feel like less of provider to get the airborne and ground pounder SAR guys lumped in. 

CAP has lost several crews in the line of duty and to claim that CAP members (when in ES mode) are any less than first responders disparages their memories.   Brothers and sisters are brothers and sisters regardless of the uniform, the patch on the sleeve or the rank involved.  We may make fun of one another in a lot of circumstances but we're all still family.

That said, since I don't have any desire to own a weapon and generally refuse to take a discount for my service in any capacity (said as someone who has served through affiliation with the military, fire, EMS and a coroner's office), this doesn't matter much to me.

I worked for three years as an orderly at a hospital. Saw or had to deal at least with 10 bodies.

You probably don't want to open the "Who's seen more bodies than whom" can of worms.  I can tell you flat out that you're going to lose that one.  LOL

Damron, that said, even if he missed the sarcasm it is not carte blanche to lose your professionalism.  Even if it's the internet, remember that you're not only representing yourself here but also the organization and your unit.  If you wouldn't say it in front of your commander, don't post it on here.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Kassr, on the same message you quoted from, I stated the following:

I acknowledge that my experience is not as widespread nor as intense as others in this board.

What did you think I meant by that? Or did you not read that far??? I am surprised!

That others have worked with 5, 10 times or more what I dealt with!!!

How do you read messages? Scan them so you do not understand the entire message???

[SarDragon]

Luis, Crash - knock it off. This isn't a urinating competition. Or take it to PM and let the rest of us move on.

[Fubar]

I think it is important that our membership fully understands that we are not first responders. To think otherwise gets us into trouble when members recklessly exceed the speed limit in POVs and (gasp) COVs because "I'm on a mission!" or other such nonsense.

The practical definition of a first responder is the group of folks you call first when there is an emergency. That's not CAP. Unless there's someone plugged in with a PSAP that I've never heard about, CAP isn't getting the tones in the middle of the night to change pajamas and jump into an airplane.

In fact, any organization that takes 2-3 hours to get crews to an aircraft shouldn't consider itself anywhere near a first responding agency.

This doesn't diminish what CAP does nor should we lose a sense of urgency when on a search. We just need to acknowledge where our cog fits in this wheel.

[DakRadz]

Is everyone missing the whole list that was posted?

Properly, it is a "professional" discount. Usually CAP is included, in my experience, because the owner is rather familiar with the program.

And since they also list TSA and commercial pilots, I don't think CAP is being thrown into something that doesn't already have non-LEO/non-FR groups included. I mean, TSA. Really?

[Luis R. Ramos]

I believe people here in the majority do not take the time to read entire messages, they just scan the first two or three lines and post. Missing the focus of the message.

[lordmonar]

This is why we can't have nice stuff.

[KASSRCrashResearch]

Kassr, on the same message you quoted from, I stated the following:

I acknowledge that my experience is not as widespread nor as intense as others in this board.

What did you think I meant by that? Or did you not read that far??? I am surprised!

That others have worked with 5, 10 times or more what I dealt with!!!

How do you read messages? Scan them so you do not understand the entire message???

I was trying to avoid you giving Damron anything further to go after because it seemed like you were opening up your flank to an attack there.  I could care less who has seen the most bodies , who has been a CAP member longer than whom, etc.  Anyone who judges based solely on the "numbers" is probably going about it the wrong way.

I believe people here in the majority do not take the time to read entire messages, they just scan the first two or three lines and post. Missing the focus of the message.

As opposed to you who seemed to have missed the entire last half of my message where I was telling Damron to stop acting like a petulant child?  No one here has anyone claim to be above a simple mistake.  Not myself, not you, not anyone else.

Now, how about everyone take a deep breath and we just continue this discussion in person over beers some time?

[KASSRCrashResearch]

In fact, any organization that takes 2-3 hours to get crews to an aircraft shouldn't consider itself anywhere near a first responding agency.

So....I'm guessing that you believe that the USAR teams, many HAZMAT crews (at the technician level in rural areas), etc aren't first responders either? Wildland firefighters?  DMORT? Non-CAP ground SAR teams?  All of these can take hours to days to get on-site let alone doing anything useful.   

[kwe1009]

Back to the original intent of this post, the OP stated that he called the discount by the incorrect name and that it is actually called a "professional" discount by the company.  Even if the company wanted to call it a "first responder" discount, it is their choice to decide who to include in that group and not ours.  If they choose to include CAP then great.  I have been to places that offer a "first responder" discount but not a military discount and they rightfully don't include the military as a first responder.  No skin off of my back.  It is their choice who to offer a discount to.  I've had one try to give me their first responder discount even though it was for fire, law enforcement and EMS.  I politely declined and thanked them for giving a discount to those organizations.

In fact, any organization that takes 2-3 hours to get crews to an aircraft shouldn't consider itself anywhere near a first responding agency.

So....I'm guessing that you believe that the USAR teams, many HAZMAT crews (at the technician level in rural areas), etc aren't first responders either? Wildland firefighters?  DMORT? Non-CAP ground SAR teams?  All of these can take hours to days to get on-site let alone doing anything useful.

None of those organizations that you mentioned are first responders and neither is CAP.  An example of a  first responder is an organization that the 911 operator would engage to respond to a call like the police, fire and EMS.  By definition a "first responder" is someone who gets the call first and CAP and none of the organizations you mentioned rarely if ever get the call first.  They all usually are contacted by local authorities who are already on the scene.

[KASSRCrashResearch]

An example of a  first responder is an organization that the 911 operator would engage to respond to a call like the police, fire and EMS.  By definition a "first responder" is someone who gets the call first and CAP and none of the organizations you mentioned rarely if ever get the call first.  They all usually are contacted by local authorities who are already on the scene.

You don't understand how ground SAR often works outside of the CAP system do you?  All of the ones I am familiar with are dispatched through the 911 system.  It might be a phone tree triggered by a call to the duty officer from the 911 EOC but it's still probably going to happen fairly quickly in an actual backwoods "Hey X is missing out there somewhere".  It's less quick in cases where the subject is likely in a confined area (escaped Alzheimer's patient or a child who wanders off from an urban setting for example) but the notice will still get put out as an initial resource.   The same applies to wildland fire crews which- when on seasonal alert- are often given marching orders as an initial resource based on 911 calls (or so I have been told....Indiana isn't wildland fire territory).  What gets tagged as an initial resource is going to be largely dependent upon the nature of the event.  If you have an airliner punch a hole in a corn field, yeah....the first on scene is probably going to be a bunch of local fire, EMS and police.  But I can tell you based on my day job that within the hour (or sooner if the team commander sees it on the news beforehand), a call has gone out to the state mortuary response team and the regional DMORT team has been put on alert.

By definition a "first responder" is someone who gets the call first

By YOUR definition.  The actual definition is:

The term "first responder" refers to those individuals who in the early stages of an incident are responsible for the protection and preservation of life, property, evidence, and the environment, including emergency response providers as defined in section 2 of the Homeland Security Act of 2002 (6 U.S.C. 101), as well as emergency management, public health, clinical care, public works, and other skilled support personnel (such as equipment operators) that provide immediate support services during prevention, response, and recovery operations."  (HSPD-8 section 2(d))

And just to be thorough here's the pertinent bit of the aforementioned HSA of 2002:

(6) The term ''emergency response providers'' includes Federal, State, and local emergency public safety, law enforcement, emergency response, emergency medical (including hospital
emergency facilities), and related personnel, agencies, and authorities.

Emphasis above is my own for purposes of clarity.



But whatever....you're entitled to your opinion even if almost every other definition, including the legal definition of first responders in most cases, includes those groups.  It's just like how I don't really consider myself a veteran since I was never in harm's way (which is a personal opinion since it's not even a standard that I apply to anyone else) and got slammed for stating that on here.   You're entitled to believe whatever you want but that doesn't make you correct or free from having the disparity between the commonly accepted definition and the one you use.  Props for sticking to an unpopular opinion though!  :clap:

I will point out that in many cases of missing aircraft or people, the first people on the scene (or overhead) will be a CAP crew.  So....it doesn't matter if the local yokel volunteer fire department and sheriff's office gets the call first, they aren't the first there.   In the case of a serious HAZMAT incident, chances are good that those "first responders by Kwe1009's definition" may well get the call first but they are staging a mile or more with their backs to the wind waiting on the glow worms (techs from the local HazMat team) to show up and actually do something useful.  The locals might have responded first, but unless they are violating the basic safety rules and common sense, they aren't the first to actually get into the scene.

That's said as someone who has met your definition of first responder via several other means.  All these petty distinctions only seek to drive a wedge between what needs to be a cohesive and at least somewhat unified team. 

[SkywalkerRA]

We're all on the same team ... right? Sometimes, I wonder.

Friends, there is a discount out there for CAP members. If you want it, take advantage it...if you don't feel comfortable taking it, don't take it. If you think of CAP as a "first responder" agency, then fine. If you don't, then fine. Does it change the essentials of what you do and how you do it? Does how someone else thinks on this forum change what you do and how you do it in CAP.

We're all going to have different perspectives and opinions on things-arguing about it rarely changes anyone's mind and just motivates people to dig in deeper to their own positions. If someone feels differently than you do, thank him or her for sharing her opinion and we can move on and solve the bigger problems of the world like the transition to the ABU....

Okay, I've said my peace.

[Luis R. Ramos]

...like the transition to the ABU....

About time this thread became an uniform thread!

[SkywalkerRA]

...like the transition to the ABU....

About time this thread became an uniform thread!

What's funny about uniform discussions is...I am the PAO of my squadron and do a weekly blog. One of the most popular blog posts by far was one on uniforms! We had more shares and likes on Facebook for that post lots than for much our other content. I was surprised, but I probably shouldn't have been.

[kwe1009]

You don't understand how ground SAR often works outside of the CAP system do you? All of the ones I am familiar with are dispatched through the 911 system. 

That is pretty cool.  I always thought law enforcement and/or Fire/EMS were the first ones to respond to a missing person or downed aircraft.  My bad I guess.

[RNOfficer]

Are you retarded or have a problem identifying sarcasm when you see it?  You might consider reading a thread further before you post.

The Internet provides access to almost all human knowledge. What people really use it for are:

1. porn
2. watching cats play the piano
3. fights with strangers

[Luis R. Ramos]

Sooo,

Do you categorize use people give to CAPTalk as...

3. Fights with strangers?!!

[KASSRCrashResearch]

You don't understand how ground SAR often works outside of the CAP system do you? All of the ones I am familiar with are dispatched through the 911 system. 

That is pretty cool.  I always thought law enforcement and/or Fire/EMS were the first ones to respond to a missing person or downed aircraft.  My bad I guess.

They do respond if there's a known location.  But look at it like this:  if it's the common "We have a plane missing between Fort Wayne and Indianapolis" which is about 85 miles as the crow flies how do you chose which one of the 30-40+ jurisdictions it could be in would you send out?

Even if you have a fixed area, it doesn't mean they will be the first people on scene.  For my day job, I work with crash investigation reports (from both the NTSB and the local authorities with the latter, sadly, often being much more detailed).  You'd be amazed how many will make the observation that despite a search of the area by LEOs and the local FD after there was a report of the crash, it was either a civilian or a CAP unit that located the crash site several hours later.

If the locals were always first on the scene or able to handle a large scale search....CAP would lose on its main tangible contribution to society.

[abdsp51]

They do respond if there's a known location.  But look at it like this:  if it's the common "We have a plane missing between Fort Wayne and Indianapolis" which is about 85 miles as the crow flies how do you chose which one of the 30-40+ jurisdictions it could be in would you send out?

Even if you have a fixed area, it doesn't mean they will be the first people on scene.  For my day job, I work with crash investigation reports (from both the NTSB and the local authorities with the latter, sadly, often being much more detailed).  You'd be amazed how many will make the observation that despite a search of the area by LEOs and the local FD after there was a report of the crash, it was either a civilian or a CAP unit that located the crash site several hours later.

If the locals were always first on the scene or able to handle a large scale search....CAP would lose on its main tangible contribution to society.

No we wouldn't because we have other missions to perform.  Sorry but CAP is npot some elite ES/SAR squad alot of people to include membership think it is.

[Holding Pattern]

Sorry but CAP is npot some elite ES/SAR squad alot of people to include membership think it is.

Who here said it was?

[KASSRCrashResearch]

Sorry but CAP is npot some elite ES/SAR squad alot of people to include membership think it is.

Who here said it was?

Exactly.  That's not what I said.  I just said that the main public benefit CAP provides is the ES mission. 

If you ask the average person "What does the Civil Air Patrol do?" odds are they will have no clue or will go "Don't they fly search missions?".  As much as the aerospace education and all the nifty little drill competitions get touted as being the heart of what CAP does...they are largely unheard of outside of the organization and even if they are, they are hard to quantify in terms of tangible outcomes.  Hence why I said "main tangible contribution to society". 

[Fubar]

In fact, any organization that takes 2-3 hours to get crews to an aircraft shouldn't consider itself anywhere near a first responding agency.

So....I'm guessing that you believe that the USAR teams, many HAZMAT crews (at the technician level in rural areas), etc aren't first responders either? Wildland firefighters?  DMORT? Non-CAP ground SAR teams?  All of these can take hours to days to get on-site let alone doing anything useful.

Yes, that's correct. When someone notices there is a bunch of trees on fire, do they call the wildland firefighters immediately, or do they call the local fire department? The first responders arrive, determine holy crap, we need some help, and they request the big boys with the big boys to come in to assist.

So are they a first responder? No. Emergency responder? I'd say a huge fire is an emergency that requires their response. First responders are the guys and gals that head your way immediately upon the first notification of the emergency. That's not CAP, and that's not any other federal resource that takes hours, days, or weeks to spool up. Does that make them unimportant? Gosh no, especially if your life/loved one/property they are responding to help find or save.

It's important that CAP members understand we're not first responders only in that it will keep us out of trouble with those that are. I think we've all known a guy or two that we've had to politely take aside and remind them we're not driving police cars or fire trucks because by the time we're involved, the emergent aspect of the emergency is likely over.

Now, if someone wants to give CAP members a discount and group us in with first responders, well heck, I'm a cheap guy and I'll take any discount you give me. I don't care how they classify us as it doesn't affect us at all. It's that we properly understand our role in an emergency response is what's important.

[Holding Pattern]

In fact, any organization that takes 2-3 hours to get crews to an aircraft shouldn't consider itself anywhere near a first responding agency.

So....I'm guessing that you believe that the USAR teams, many HAZMAT crews (at the technician level in rural areas), etc aren't first responders either? Wildland firefighters?  DMORT? Non-CAP ground SAR teams?  All of these can take hours to days to get on-site let alone doing anything useful.

Yes, that's correct. When someone notices there is a bunch of trees on fire, do they call the wildland firefighters immediately, or do they call the local fire department? The first responders arrive, determine holy crap, we need some help, and they request the big boys with the big boys to come in to assist.

So are they a first responder? No. Emergency responder? I'd say a huge fire is an emergency that requires their response.

US law classifies emergency responders as first responders.

And they (and we) can all get training at... firstrespondertraining.gov

And no, this doesn't mean that we are better or worse than anyone else, or that we are equal to anyone else. But this forum has a tendency to focus on what we aren't to the point of self-denigration.

[Slim]

Jesus Jumpin' Christ folks.

Is it really that hard?  Here's a businessman who was kind enough to offer CAP members the same professional discount he offers to cops, firemen, medics, commercial pilots, TSA, etc.    It's no different than going into the local choke and puke in uniform and getting a discount.

You have two choices.  Smile, say thank you, and throw an extra buck or two into the tip jar.  Or, stand up, make a big scene, and nobly declare that you're no one important, you don't rate or deserve any kind of discount, and you'll be paying full price.  One isn't necessarily the end of the world, and leaves someone with a warm and fuzzy feeling that  they did something nice for someone who goes out of their way to do whatever it is you do.  The other does nothing more than make a big scene and make someone (other than you) look stupid.

It's really simple.  Want to take advantage of the discount?  Take it, and show your appreciation for it.  Don't want it?  Don't mention your affiliation with said group, pay the price, and drive the hell on.

I honestly don't understand why it is that every stinkin' time the topic of a CAP discount comes up, some are so ready and willing to grab the torches and pitchforks, then go after the business and/or anyone who even thinks about using it? 

[Al Sayre]

^^ :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Storm Chaser]

I want to say I'm surprised by this argument, but unfortunately I'm not. These are the kind of things that make CAP members look like amateurs, instead of the professionals we ought to be.

CAP members are not first responders as police, fire fighters, and EMS personnel are. That's not our role and there's nothing wrong with that. According to CAPR 60-3, Para. 1-4, our priority "is [to support] first, the Air Force, then other DoD departments and agencies, other federal departments and agencies, state civil agencies, and finally, local agencies." The majority of Air Force personnel are not considered first responders either.

Regardless of the definition of what and who a first responder is and whether we fall in that category or not, the discount mentioned by the OP has nothing to to with that. It's just a discount. As a CAP member, you can accept gracefully, benefit from the discount, and be grateful for it. Or, you can choose not to accept the discount, pay full price, or even take your business elsewhere. It's your choice, but it's not a matter of debate.

We do what we do in CAP because we care and believe in the mission. We volunteer because we want to give back to our communities, state, and nation. We're not entitled to special treatment or benefits, but if someone wants to give us a discount to show their appreciation, then there's nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong in accepting.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

How big is this "Law Enforcement Discount"? May not be worth the trouble.

A couple years ago I purchased an FN PS-90 Carbine from an online gun store that offered an LEO Discount.  Cost of the Carbine $890.  FFL Processing fee at the local range $25.  Same carbine of the shelf at the local gun store $1400.  Prices at the gun show;  1300-1500.

LEO Discounts allow me to buy ammo at $14.00/box while to local stores are selling at 24.00 per box.

My wife's Kimber:  MSRP 1200.00, local prices 900.00  LEO Discount $750.00.

These discounts are well worth it. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

You got the Stargate gun...and at a great price. Nice.

[abdsp51]

You got the Stargate gun...and at a great price. Nice.

Stargate gun is the sub-gun variant not the carbine.  The Stargate variant variant here in the states is a Class III firearm.

[Holding Pattern]

You got the Stargate gun...and at a great price. Nice.

Stargate gun is the sub-gun variant not the carbine.  The Stargate variant variant here in the states is a Class III firearm.

It's a Title II firearm that can be only sold via a Class III SOT FFL to LE agencies.

That being said, my airsoft p90 is a great anti-pest bird control tool.

[Майор Хаткевич]

You got the Stargate gun...and at a great price. Nice.

Stargate gun is the sub-gun variant not the carbine.  The Stargate variant variant here in the states is a Class III firearm.

Aware of the differences...still one of the most interesting looking firearms out there.

[LTC Don]

Jesus Jumpin' Christ folks.

Is it really that hard?  Here's a businessman who was kind enough to offer CAP members the same professional discount he offers to cops, firemen, medics, commercial pilots, TSA, etc.    It's no different than going into the local choke and puke in uniform and getting a discount.

You have two choices.  Smile, say thank you, and throw an extra buck or two into the tip jar.  Or, stand up, make a big scene, and nobly declare that you're no one important, you don't rate or deserve any kind of discount, and you'll be paying full price.  One isn't necessarily the end of the world, and leaves someone with a warm and fuzzy feeling that  they did something nice for someone who goes out of their way to do whatever it is you do.  The other does nothing more than make a big scene and make someone (other than you) look stupid.

It's really simple.  Want to take advantage of the discount?  Take it, and show your appreciation for it.  Don't want it?  Don't mention your affiliation with said group, pay the price, and drive the hell on.

I honestly don't understand why it is that every stinkin' time the topic of a CAP discount comes up, some are so ready and willing to grab the torches and pitchforks, then go after the business and/or anyone who even thinks about using it?

Quoted for truth. 

[RNOfficer]

I have a real fishy feeling about this...

Not a scam. Info sent to anyone who requested it.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

The PS-90 is the Over the Counter Civilian gun while the P-90 is the Military/Law Enforcement Personal Defense Weapon.  Differences are the PS-90 comes stock with a 16 inch barrel although with proper documentation it can be cut down to 10.4 inches same as for the P-90.  Also, the PS-90 is Semi-Auto only where the P-90 is Selective Fire (900 rpm).  The P-90 comes with a 10 round magazine for CA and NY, 30 rd  mags for everywhere else and 50 rd mags are an available option.  (takes 10 minutes to convert a 30 rd magazine to 50 rounds.) 
  Not only Stargate, but the P-90/PS-90 was also used in the TV Series 'A' Team, and the Hunger Games Movies.

[Chica]

So....

[Chica]

I don't get the point....................

[stillamarine]

The PS-90 is the Over the Counter Civilian gun while the P-90 is the Military/Law Enforcement Personal Defense Weapon.  Differences are the PS-90 comes stock with a 16 inch barrel although with proper documentation it can be cut down to 10.4 inches same as for the P-90.  Also, the PS-90 is Semi-Auto only where the P-90 is Selective Fire (900 rpm).  The P-90 comes with a 10 round magazine for CA and NY, 30 rd  mags for everywhere else and 50 rd mags are an available option.  (takes 10 minutes to convert a 30 rd magazine to 50 rounds.) 
  Not only Stargate, but the P-90/PS-90 was also used in the TV Series 'A' Team, and the Hunger Games Movies.

Our SWAT carry the P90 as well as the 5.7 pistol. I think it's dumb but hey that's what they wanted.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The PS-90 is the Over the Counter Civilian gun while the P-90 is the Military/Law Enforcement Personal Defense Weapon.  Differences are the PS-90 comes stock with a 16 inch barrel although with proper documentation it can be cut down to 10.4 inches same as for the P-90.  Also, the PS-90 is Semi-Auto only where the P-90 is Selective Fire (900 rpm).  The P-90 comes with a 10 round magazine for CA and NY, 30 rd  mags for everywhere else and 50 rd mags are an available option.  (takes 10 minutes to convert a 30 rd magazine to 50 rounds.) 
  Not only Stargate, but the P-90/PS-90 was also used in the TV Series 'A' Team, and the Hunger Games Movies.

Our SWAT carry the P90 as well as the 5.7 pistol. I think it's dumb but hey that's what they wanted.

I remember reading an article by one of the earlier SWAT commanders on the versatility of the P90 for the types of missions swat does.

[stillamarine]

The PS-90 is the Over the Counter Civilian gun while the P-90 is the Military/Law Enforcement Personal Defense Weapon.  Differences are the PS-90 comes stock with a 16 inch barrel although with proper documentation it can be cut down to 10.4 inches same as for the P-90.  Also, the PS-90 is Semi-Auto only where the P-90 is Selective Fire (900 rpm).  The P-90 comes with a 10 round magazine for CA and NY, 30 rd  mags for everywhere else and 50 rd mags are an available option.  (takes 10 minutes to convert a 30 rd magazine to 50 rounds.) 
  Not only Stargate, but the P-90/PS-90 was also used in the TV Series 'A' Team, and the Hunger Games Movies.

Our SWAT carry the P90 as well as the 5.7 pistol. I think it's dumb but hey that's what they wanted.

I remember reading an article by one of the earlier SWAT commanders on the versatility of the P90 for the types of missions swat does.

Meh. I shot it and I'm not impressed really. That's what they chose. We have one of the oldest units in the country but lately they've kinda gone downhill

[Cliff_Chambliss]

I enjoy shooting the PS-90, it's a fun gun and considering everything very accurate.  As a household protection gun it is better than most other carbines/rifles, but not as good as a handgun.  Also, for general plinking ammunition is rather expensive so an average day at the range will only see 50-75 rounds downrange.  I really don't know why I bought it other than I have several other FN weapons (SAFN 49, FAL, Hi-Power) and they are excellent guns.  Often at the middle of the week my wife and I discuss selling the PS-90 but then Sunday afternoon we are at the range and rediscover just how much fun it is to shoot the little gun.  But for general plinking it is still very hard to beat the Ruger 10/22.

[AirAux]

I have an FFL and will give discounts to all CAP members also.  $10.00 over wholesale price and whatever it costs to send to your local FFL dealer. 

[Storm Chaser]

I have an FFL and will give discounts to all CAP members also.  $10.00 over wholesale price and whatever it costs to send to your local FFL dealer.

Do you have a website?

[AirAux]

No, hit me with a PM and I will provide you with contact info.  I can order almost anything you want/need.  I do this because the ATF told me several years ago that I wasn't moving enough guns and they were going to try to take my license.  Good luck with that.  However, around that time, they picked up the license of around 750,000 FFL holders.  Most waived their rights..

[Storm Chaser]

Great! Thank you. PM sent.

[Mustang]

If it's from the place I think it is (a certain outfit in Kentucky), it's absolutely a legit deal and we're lucky to have it. I've bought two firearms from this dealer, got the "qualified professional" discount on the second one (about 1/3 off MSRP).   They are great to deal with, completely hassle-free transactions both times.

[Mustang]

I have an FFL and will give discounts to all CAP members also.  $10.00 over wholesale price and whatever it costs to send to your local FFL dealer.

Wow! That's a very generous offer!  Thank you!


This is one of the things I love about CAP....great people willing to bend over backwards for their fellow volunteers.

[Damron]

I have an FFL and will give discounts to all CAP members also.  $10.00 over wholesale price and whatever it costs to send to your local FFL dealer.

I have a real fishy feeling about this...

[Майор Хаткевич]

I have an FFL and will give discounts to all CAP members also.  $10.00 over wholesale price and whatever it costs to send to your local FFL dealer.

I have a real fishy feeling about this...

Why?

[Damron]

I have an FFL and will give discounts to all CAP members also.  $10.00 over wholesale price and whatever it costs to send to your local FFL dealer.

I have a real fishy feeling about this...

Why?

I'm joking.  Somebody previously posted the same thing and this thread got nutty.

[Garibaldi]

Wait, we can purchase guns for CAP now?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Where did you see, in this discussion, in the regs, or elsewhere that anyone has stated we can purchase guns for CAP?!!!!!!!! No one has stated so, and going from no guns to guns because a third party is giving a discount, is a stretch...

[grunt82abn]

Where did you see, in this discussion, in the regs, or elsewhere that anyone has stated we can purchase guns for CAP?!!!!!!!! No one has stated so, and going from no guns to guns because a third party is giving a discount, is a stretch...

Laughed at this so hard, I fell out of my bunk :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Luis R. Ramos]

Who is going to change this thread into an uniform thread, since that seems to be the end of all our postings?

Maybe someone wants to ask "will we wear our ABUs for purchasing these discounted guns?"

[stillamarine]

Who is going to change this thread into an uniform thread, since that seems to be the end of all our postings?

Maybe someone wants to ask "will we wear our ABUs for purchasing these discounted guns?"

Or will said guns be hydrodipped in ABU

[Luis R. Ramos]

And to continue the uniform thread, the bullets for that gun will be special purchase.

The shell will come painted Dark Navy. The bullet will be Silver to match the tapes! There will be a special holster as well. It will be Green Suede!

Magazines will be black, so everyone is satisfied...

[Al Sayre]

I don't like the 9mm, can I haz the .45?

[Holding Pattern]

I don't like the 9mm, can I haz the .45?

ORM requires we use a 9mm so we don't actually hurt anyone.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I don't like the 9mm, can I haz the .45?

ORM requires we use a .22 so we don't actually hurt anyone.

Fixed

[Al Sayre]

If you shoot someone with a .22 or .25 and they find out about it, they're really going to be mad...

[SarDragon]

If you shoot someone with a .22 or .25 and they find out about it, they're really going to be mad...

OTOH, a .223 might ruin their whole weekend. 

[Cliff_Chambliss]

If you shoot someone with a .22 or .25 and they find out about it, they're really going to be mad...

OTOH, a .223 might ruin their whole weekend. 

But when pointed between your eyes there really does not seem to be that much difference between the apparent barrel diameter of a .22 single shot pistol and a 12 ga shotgun.  Both spell bad news enroute. 

My wife started with a .25 as her training gun.  learning the grip, stance, getting used to recoil, smell, and sound.  After several visits to the range she upgraded a bit to a .380.  She still likes her .380's and now has three (Sig P238, Kimber Micro, Remington RM-380) she shoots on a regular basis.  However on our last range outing she was shooting my Walther CCP 9mm and my new Ruger New American Pistol 9mm.  She still thinks my Browning Hi-Power is too big and heavy though.

[Al Sayre]

I have an FFL and will give discounts to all CAP members also.  $10.00 over wholesale price and whatever it costs to send to your local FFL dealer.

Check your PM's

[Holding Pattern]

I don't like the 9mm, can I haz the .45?

ORM requires we use a .22 so we don't actually hurt anyone.

Fixed

No, I had it right the first time.