Restoration of adult member NCO chevron ranks?

[hhbooker2]

Greetings & Salutations! Have heard over the many years that the Civil Air Patrol had considered restoration of adult member NCO chevrons ranks? Is it just scuttlebutt or a germ of truth squirreled away there, hopefully? Would be star of the USAF be replaced by the the three-blade propeller in the center, maybe? As I am a septuagenarian now, over age 70, do not cotton to the idea of being a Second Lieutenant. Alternative is Senior Member non-rank, yes? I was a Master Sergeant in the 1960s with the National Capitol Wing in Washington, D.C. (Bolling AFB), heard NCO rank could be reclaimed from C.A.P. or as an enlisted person in the regular U.S. Armed Forces, nope? It is also said one would be frozen in whatever NCO or Airman rank? I appear to have been the "post boy" for being an enlisted person in the C.A.P.? Saw only one other NCO, a woman of 19 who was a Technical Sergeant, maybe we were rare even back then? Any ideas, answers or comments? Thank you kindly! Herbert Booker of Palm Coast, Florida (Somewhere in Limbo)

[Eclipse]

Yes, it's been considered.  It isn't workable in CAP as the program exists today.

There's plenty of discussion on this in other threads.

[Storm Chaser]

As has been mentioned in other threads, you can come back to CAP as a MSgt as long as you have documentation that you were previously a MSgt in CAP or in the military. These ranks are approved locally and recorded at NHQ. Once the rank is approved, there is currently no way to get promoted to other NCO grades (unless you're still in the military, in which case you can promote in CAP as you promote in your service).

There has been many discussions about incorporating an NCO senior program in CAP. If that ever gets approved and implemented, then NCO members would be able to progress through their program and be promoted as their officer counterparts. But how long before such program is approved and implemented is still undetermined. My guess is that it will be several years, at best.

[arajca]

According to the last CSAG meeting minutes, the proposal has been presented to the AF and is being considered by them.

[Private Investigator]

... As I am a septuagenarian now, over age 70, do not cotton to the idea of being a Second Lieutenant. Alternative is Senior Member non-rank, yes? I was a Master Sergeant in the 1960s with the National Capitol Wing ...

Master Sergeant always sounds good. Second Lieutenant is ok at 21 and I see your point at 71. It just does not sound kosher.

Thanks for your service sir   :clap:

[jeders]

... As I am a septuagenarian now, over age 70, do not cotton to the idea of being a Second Lieutenant. Alternative is Senior Member non-rank, yes? I was a Master Sergeant in the 1960s with the National Capitol Wing ...

Master Sergeant always sounds good. Second Lieutenant is ok at 21 and I see your point at 71. It just does not sound kosher.

Thanks for your service sir   :clap:

That's interesting, at an SLS a couple of years ago we had a member who had served during WWII. He had joined CAP quite recently at that point and was proud to be a 2d Lt. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[hhbooker2]

Master Sergeant always sounds good. Second Lieutenant is ok at 21 and I see your point at 71. It just does not sound kosher.

Thanks for your service sir   :clap:
[/quote] You're quite welcome, actually served underage in the U.S.Army first in the 1950s, then the South Carolina Army National Guard and later the C.A.P.!

That's interesting, at an SLS a couple of years ago we had a member who had served during WWII. He had joined CAP quite recently at that point and was proud to be a 2d Lt. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
[/quote]  Saw a photograph of a gentleman in his 90s as a Second Lieutenant, that is okay if one elects to hold the rank, yes, different strokes I guess? Does a former warrant officer or commissioned officer in the State Guard (State Defense Forces, State Military Reserve, etc.) qualify to a higher rank that 2LT in the C.A.P.? We had a former C.A.P. Major who had a commission of same rank from the California Governor and the Adjutant General and he later was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel and the C.A.P. elevated him to that rank also, so we were told?  He is also a lawyer, maybe his position in civil life counts for it too? He acted as an unpaid lawyer for the California Army National Guard, many in SDF volunteer to do the work for free! I commend the older Second Lieutenant!  :clap:

[MSG Mac]

The grade must be "Federally Recognized", so Armed Forces or National Guard grades would transfer, but not State Guard.

[SARDOC]

The grade must be "Federally Recognized", so Armed Forces or National Guard grades would transfer, but not State Guard.

Not all National Guard grades are federally recognized.  I've seen guys graduate State OCS with 90 college credits (ie. No Bachelor's degree) and Commissioned a Second Lieutenants, but their grade wasn't recognized with an actual commission until after their bachelor's degree was completed.

[TankerT]

The grade must be "Federally Recognized", so Armed Forces or National Guard grades would transfer, but not State Guard.

Not all National Guard grades are federally recognized.  I've seen guys graduate State OCS with 90 college credits (ie. No Bachelor's degree) and Commissioned a Second Lieutenants, but their grade wasn't recognized with an actual commission until after their bachelor's degree was completed.

I think you're information is a little off.  National Guard Officers with 90 credits from college receive a commission that is federally recognized.  There are some cases where the federal recognition is delayed for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes self-imposed.  In the past (not sure about the last 10 years) some states would let you put off your federal commission (or state commission) so you could finish your degree.  This had nothing to do with the credits, but allowed people to continue to get some education benefits only available to them as enlisted personnel.

Edit: Note - you can have your federally recognized rank be different than your state rank though.  I.E. a very common instance is that some Adjutant Generals are not federally recognized as Generals, but wear General grade insignia  in their state.

[Private Investigator]

The grade must be "Federally Recognized", so Armed Forces or National Guard grades would transfer, but not State Guard.

Not all National Guard grades are federally recognized.  I've seen guys graduate State OCS with 90 college credits (ie. No Bachelor's degree) and Commissioned a Second Lieutenants, but their grade wasn't recognized with an actual commission until after their bachelor's degree was completed.

I think you're information is a little off.  National Guard Officers with 90 credits from college receive a commission that is federally recognized.  There are some cases where the federal recognition is delayed for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes self-imposed.  In the past (not sure about the last 10 years) some states would let you put off your federal commission (or state commission) so you could finish your degree.  This had nothing to do with the credits, but allowed people to continue to get some education benefits only available to them as enlisted personnel.

Edit: Note - you can have your federally recognized rank be different than your state rank though.  I.E. a very common instance is that some Adjutant Generals are not federally recognized as Generals, but wear General grade insignia  in their state.

Correctomundo. A few years back a female was selected as the Adjutant General of VT and was promoted to MG while in the Army she was only a LTC.   

[Flying Pig]

Sounds like something CAP would do

[SARDOC]

The grade must be "Federally Recognized", so Armed Forces or National Guard grades would transfer, but not State Guard.

Not all National Guard grades are federally recognized.  I've seen guys graduate State OCS with 90 college credits (ie. No Bachelor's degree) and Commissioned a Second Lieutenants, but their grade wasn't recognized with an actual commission until after their bachelor's degree was completed.

I think you're information is a little off.  National Guard Officers with 90 credits from college receive a commission that is federally recognized.  There are some cases where the federal recognition is delayed for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes self-imposed.  In the past (not sure about the last 10 years) some states would let you put off your federal commission (or state commission) so you could finish your degree.  This had nothing to do with the credits, but allowed people to continue to get some education benefits only available to them as enlisted personnel.

Edit: Note - you can have your federally recognized rank be different than your state rank though.  I.E. a very common instance is that some Adjutant Generals are not federally recognized as Generals, but wear General grade insignia  in their state.

Thanks.  I don't see where my one example is debunked though.  My information is correct just not as complete.  You've just really solidified my point.

I did not know that the TAG's weren't federally recognized.  I just thought the National Guard seemed very flag heavy.

[jimmydeanno]

The grade must be "Federally Recognized", so Armed Forces or National Guard grades would transfer, but not State Guard.

Not all National Guard grades are federally recognized.  I've seen guys graduate State OCS with 90 college credits (ie. No Bachelor's degree) and Commissioned a Second Lieutenants, but their grade wasn't recognized with an actual commission until after their bachelor's degree was completed.

I think you're information is a little off.  National Guard Officers with 90 credits from college receive a commission that is federally recognized.  There are some cases where the federal recognition is delayed for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes self-imposed.  In the past (not sure about the last 10 years) some states would let you put off your federal commission (or state commission) so you could finish your degree.  This had nothing to do with the credits, but allowed people to continue to get some education benefits only available to them as enlisted personnel.

Edit: Note - you can have your federally recognized rank be different than your state rank though.  I.E. a very common instance is that some Adjutant Generals are not federally recognized as Generals, but wear General grade insignia  in their state.

Thanks.  I don't see where my one example is debunked though.  My information is correct just not as complete.  You've just really solidified my point.

I did not know that the TAG's weren't federally recognized.  I just thought the National Guard seemed very flag heavy.

The current GA Adjudant General left Active Duty as a Captain.  The feds recognize him as a Major and in state he is a Major General.

[MSG Mac]

State AG's are frocked as MG's upon appointment. But must meet Federal Requirements for recognition. Most usually do get BG and later MG. Some don't. I recall meeting a Colonel, who had been the AG for Massachusetts, but didn't meet the federal requirements for recognition. MG within the Commonwealth, COL when traveling.

[MHC5096]

In many states, the position of Adjutant General is a political appointment by the government or the legislature.

The Adjutant General for Vermont that Private Investigator mentioned is Major General Martha Rainville. She was a Lieutenant Colonel in the Vermont Air National Guard. When she was appointed to TAG, she was wore the insignia of Major General (state recognized) while her federally recognized grade was Lieutenant Colonel. However, she was federally recognized as a Major General by the time she resigned from the position to run for elected office.

When I left the VTANG in 2009, there was an appointed Assistant Adjutant General (Brigadier General) who only had prior enlisted military service. When conducting business in the state of Vermont he would wear an Army BG uniform, but outside the state he would wear a civilian suit. In Vermont an individual can actually be placed into a flag rank position with no prior military service at all.

[PHall]

The grade must be "Federally Recognized", so Armed Forces or National Guard grades would transfer, but not State Guard.

Not all National Guard grades are federally recognized.  I've seen guys graduate State OCS with 90 college credits (ie. No Bachelor's degree) and Commissioned a Second Lieutenants, but their grade wasn't recognized with an actual commission until after their bachelor's degree was completed.

I think you're information is a little off.  National Guard Officers with 90 credits from college receive a commission that is federally recognized.  There are some cases where the federal recognition is delayed for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes self-imposed.  In the past (not sure about the last 10 years) some states would let you put off your federal commission (or state commission) so you could finish your degree.  This had nothing to do with the credits, but allowed people to continue to get some education benefits only available to them as enlisted personnel.

Edit: Note - you can have your federally recognized rank be different than your state rank though.  I.E. a very common instance is that some Adjutant Generals are not federally recognized as Generals, but wear General grade insignia  in their state.

Correctomundo. A few years back a female was selected as the Adjutant General of VT and was promoted to MG while in the Army she was only a LTC.   

Same thing happened in California back in the 80's when Jerry Brown was Governor the first time.
Friend of his who was an Active Duty Army LTC was appointed as the AG by Governor Brown. It was almost three years before he was Federally recognized as a General Officer.

[commando1]

Going back to the OP, what happens when the SM is active duty? Do they still promote as their military rank? Or are they locked in under the rank they joined as? I'm a former Mitchell cadet, current FO and active duty U.S Marine.

Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni

[jeders]

Going back to the OP, what happens when the SM is active duty? Do they still promote as their military rank? Or are they locked in under the rank they joined as? I'm a former Mitchell cadet, current FO and active duty U.S Marine.

Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni

If you rise in your active duty NCO grade, then you submit the proper CAP paperwork for the higher CAP enlisted rank. Promoting while active duty is the only way currently for CAP NCOs to promote without becoming officers.

[Private Investigator]

In many states, the position of Adjutant General is a political appointment by the government or the legislature.

The Adjutant General for Vermont that Private Investigator mentioned is Major General Martha Rainville. She was a Lieutenant Colonel in the Vermont Air National Guard. When she was appointed to TAG, she was wore the insignia of Major General (state recognized) while her federally recognized grade was Lieutenant Colonel. However, she was federally recognized as a Major General by the time she resigned from the position to run for elected office.

When I left the VTANG in 2009, there was an appointed Assistant Adjutant General (Brigadier General) who only had prior enlisted military service. When conducting business in the state of Vermont he would wear an Army BG uniform, but outside the state he would wear a civilian suit. In Vermont an individual can actually be placed into a flag rank position with no prior military service at all.

Thank you sir for the update. I guess it is all fair since all you need to know, is how to fried chicken to be a Colonel in Kentucky.