Prank the new guy

[abdsp51]

Hazing is any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.

So, I have a question(s) for you then...

What do you tell a new airman at basic encampment when he does not want to make his bed BMT style because he believes it is demeaning and oppressive and humiliating?

What about the cadets assigned to KP for breakfast? I'm sure they think its all those things to wake up a before all the rest of the cadets to make food for them.

If hazing is any activity that the person THINKS its hazing...than we are in some serious trouble...

Hazing is not defined by the target, it is defined by the activity.  Getting up early for PT or for KP is not cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive or harmful...although I know my son disagrees that it isn't cruel.  Quite a few days, I agree with him.

So what do you do when the airman complains about it?  You give them feedback on it immediately and make sure they have ownership of the issue.  If they continue with the wrong behavior and it becomes a systemic issue, you continue to give them feedback about how it has become a systemic issue, including the possibility that it impacts future promotion events.  If it still continues, you note it for inclusion in future actions.  Are they ready to move up if they complain about serving others through KP?  How can they expect to be a leader when they don't even understand why things like being able to make a bunk properly are necessary.  Of course, if they don't understand, I'd call it a failure of leadership for not teaching, but the end result is the same - they are not prepared to lead.

Is it not clear?  You cannot control others.  All you can do is tell what the rules are, inform them when they excel or do not comply and note systemic actions on their part as a pattern of behavior that influences future decisions.  This works for both positive and negative actions - and you should concentrate on the positive ones.  Look for people to praise and praise them publicly.  Then promote them.  Those who care about recognition (and who doesn't like to be recognized) will react.

Spoken like a corporatist

[bflynn]

Spoken like a corporatist

Odd since I learned that from an Army officer...

This is not a civilian vs military thing.  It's a human interaction thing.   

[abdsp51]

Promote those deserving not based on capability of being praised. 

[Major Lord]

Stillamarine,

Its wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs man! No explanation will convert a sheep to a sheepdog, and to the sheep, the sheepdog looks an awful lot like the wolf, and the sheep is afraid. I find this both saddening and Joyful: none of us will ever to have place our lives in the hands of the sheep, and they can graze contentedly in the grassy meadows protected by the mantle of freedom built by the sheepdogs......

Major Lord

[bflynn]

Promote those deserving not based on capability of being praised.

I think you missed that the one who is deserving, the one you praise and the one you promote is the same person. 

In any case, you do not promote those who play pranks on others or those who haze others.  Unless you want that to be the culture that you have.  You have the culture that you reward.

I'll join others and echo that in my relatively short time here, I have not seen hazing or practical jokes going on, so I presume what I suggest is already done.

[abdsp51]

Promote those deserving not based on capability of being praised.

I think you missed that the one who is deserving, the one you praise and the one you promote is the same person. 

In any case, you do not promote those who play pranks on others or those who haze others.  Unless you want that to be the culture that you have.  You have the culture that you reward.

I'll join others and echo that in my relatively short time here, I have not seen hazing or practical jokes going on, so I presume what I suggest is already done.

Got it straight forward dictatorship enviroment with no humor allowed. And you promote based off the whole person not just those you praise.  I have a chief who has a sense of humoe but is straight forward so you going to say he's not a chief and just an e9

[NCRblues]

Hazing is any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful.

So, I have a question(s) for you then...

What do you tell a new airman at basic encampment when he does not want to make his bed BMT style because he believes it is demeaning and oppressive and humiliating?

What about the cadets assigned to KP for breakfast? I'm sure they think its all those things to wake up a before all the rest of the cadets to make food for them.

If hazing is any activity that the person THINKS its hazing...than we are in some serious trouble...

Hazing is not defined by the target, it is defined by the activity.  Getting up early for PT or for KP is not cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive or harmful...although I know my son disagrees that it isn't cruel.  Quite a few days, I agree with him.

So what do you do when the airman complains about it?  You give them feedback on it immediately and make sure they have ownership of the issue.  If they continue with the wrong behavior and it becomes a systemic issue, you continue to give them feedback about how it has become a systemic issue, including the possibility that it impacts future promotion events.  If it still continues, you note it for inclusion in future actions.  Are they ready to move up if they complain about serving others through KP?  How can they expect to be a leader when they don't even understand why things like being able to make a bunk properly are necessary.  Of course, if they don't understand, I'd call it a failure of leadership for not teaching, but the end result is the same - they are not prepared to lead.

Is it not clear?  You cannot control others.  All you can do is tell what the rules are, inform them when they excel or do not comply and note systemic actions on their part as a pattern of behavior that influences future decisions.  This works for both positive and negative actions - and you should concentrate on the positive ones.  Look for people to praise and praise them publicly.  Then promote them.  Those who care about recognition (and who doesn't like to be recognized) will react.

You are kidding me right? You want me to give 'feedback' to the cadet who does not want to follow lawful orders? Please, that cadet is either doing the things I order him to do or he is going home. I can control others; it's called the chain of command. You don't like it than you are free to leave, but while the cadets are at my activity they follow my rules and CAP regulations.

[bflynn]

You are kidding me right? You want me to give 'feedback' to the cadet who does not want to follow lawful orders? Please, that cadet is either doing the things I order him to do or he is going home. I can control others; it's called the chain of command. You don't like it than you are free to leave, but while the cadets are at my activity they follow my rules and CAP regulations.

Kidding?  No, I'm not kidding, you cannot control them, you cannot force them to do anything.  You can order them and they voluntarily choose to follow the order or select consequences for not following it.  That's not a philisophical discussion point, the idea that you control anyone else is an illusion.  The sooner you accept the reality, the better leader you will become. 

If you fail to properly motivate members or you spend their energy on things that demotivate them or you create conditions that demotivate them, they do not follow you and you've failed as a leader.

Of course, we weren't originally talking about cadets, which changes the equation a little.

[abdsp51]

I guess you missed the part in the cadet oath that says "obey my officers"

[RRLE]

I guess you missed the part in the cadet oath that says "obey my officers"

Why should they? We have a current or former member of the RM bragging how he and his cohorts willingly and knowingly violated the order of their lawful superiors about hazing - because they think they know better.

He tried the lame excuse that 'everyone does it', ie break the law at some point. The RM has a code of honor. They have a higher standard then other people - yet they and a lot of you see no problem with them violating those orders because they 'know' better then their superiors. How do you think that sits with cadets? A civilain volunteer cadet is supposed to obey his civilian volunteer cadet and senior member officers but a member of the RM is applauded by some for publicly stating he and his unit violated ther orders. Strange organization - very strange.

[ol'fido]

Intra-unit humor is an important part of building unit cohesion and morale. A unit that does not allow a measure of good natured humor and some minor pranking but conforms to rampant political correctness in the name of some slanted version of professionalism is a soul dead place to work let alone volunteer your time. Might as well start a squadron with the members of the local ACLU. In any unit with good morale and unit cohesion, you will find a certain measure of good natured ribbing and good humor for all.

The key here is good natured,  but also measured, and situation appropriate. Taking these in reverse order, you do not want to be pulling a stunt worthy of "Animal House" while taking a base tour, during a eval, or heaven forbid, on an actual mission. There is a time and a place but these and certain other situations are not it. Leaders must also know when to step in a put a stop to or tone down some of the more ambitious pranks. This is what I mean by measured. There is a big difference between having somebody run over to the FBO to get a can of prop wash and shoving their head in a toilet and flushing it( the old swirlie). if you can't tell the difference, you don't need to be here anyway. Leaders must also be ready to put in check that one guy that never seems to know when to shut it off. You all know the type.

Finally, there is the nature of the pranking. When it becomes personal or malicious, it is time for leaders to bring it to a screeching halt. You don''t make fun of somebody's religion, sex, race, sexuality, handicaps, etc. You don't do something to someone because "they did it to me when I was....". That seems to be the excuse I hear a lot when we try to tell cadets not to do something because it drifts in to the area of hazing at encampment.

Every year I work with a great bunch of people, cadet and senior, at the summer encampment. If front of the cadets we are correct and professional. Behind closed doors we have a lot of fun ribbing each other, playing the minor prank, making the odd joke. It's a bonding experience for us. You would be hard pressed to find another group that shows that much camaraderie from year to year. It is the main reason I go back to encampment year after year to work along with seeing 4 foot high cadet basics grow into outstanding young leaders and human beings. I suppose that's what it boils down to; the Lord(not the Major either) gave us a sense of humor so we could enjoy life. Go forth, prank nicely, and enjoy life.

[abdsp51]

RM must mean either Real Marines or Real Military so I am going to say it means Real Military.  The military has a code of honor yes, has traditions yes, some of said traditions can/are viewed as hazing.  A lot of said traditions are considered a right of passage for people involved.  Going by the definition of hazing many agencies and organizations would be in trouble for it.  Examples;

Fini Flights spraying someone with water from either a fire extinguisher or the fir dept upon completion of a aircrew members final flight.  This can be considered hazing due to the time of year, time of day etc by the definition of hazing itself. Yet is common place AF wide. 

Yelling during BMT, BCT and Boot Camp can be considered hazing as it can cause an individual to feel embarrassed, especially if they are constantly being yelled at.

Hell week for BUD/s, Ranger School,  PJ/CCT training, SERE etc can be hazing as they use sleep deprivation, physical exertion, muscle failure, etc as part of their curriculum. 

Any comedy show that involves audience participation especially if it uses "adult" humor can be considered hazing. 

Not all orders are followed to the letter in the military and there are some that are so far out there it takes a lot of folks to make heads or tails of it, and some flat out put people at risk. 

And ol'fido +1.

[AngelWings]

I guess you missed the part in the cadet oath that says "obey my officers"

Why should they? We have a current or former member of the RM bragging how he and his cohorts willingly and knowingly violated the order of their lawful superiors about hazing - because they think they know better.

He tried the lame excuse that 'everyone does it', ie break the law at some point. The RM has a code of honor. They have a higher standard then other people - yet they and a lot of you see no problem with them violating those orders because they 'know' better then their superiors. How do you think that sits with cadets? A civilain volunteer cadet is supposed to obey his civilian volunteer cadet and senior member officers but a member of the RM is applauded by some for publicly stating he and his unit violated ther orders. Strange organization - very strange.

First off, you make it sounds like disobeying orders is a great thing. Most of the time, from my knowledge through hours of studying military history, not following orders cause bad things. If it was alright, or applaudable, for people to blatantly not follow orders, than I bet a lot of people would head home from Afghanistan. The rare instances where not following orders gets things done and is considered good are mostly in the direct line of fire of an enemy or orders that are done to save a few lives.

Secondly, RM is not an abbreviation you want to use...