US Military facing Chaplain Crisis

[Brad]

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1551833830001/us-military-facing-chaplain-crisis/?playlist_id=86856

I wonder if the USAF has done any inquires to this. I know one of the stated missions of the CAP Chaplaincy program is to supplement active-duty Chaplains where needed.

[RADIOMAN015]

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1551833830001/us-military-facing-chaplain-crisis/?playlist_id=86856

I wonder if the USAF has done any inquires to this. I know one of the stated missions of the CAP Chaplaincy program is to supplement active-duty Chaplains where needed.

IF the chaplain in CAP already has a local congregation, he/she will likely NOT be able to support the USAF on any of these missions and may also have permission ONLY to provide support to the local CAP unit.
RM

[Eclipse]

If the chaplain in CAP already has a local congregation, he/she will likely NOT be able to support the USAF on any of these missions and may also have permission ONLY to provide support to the local CAP unit.

100% incorrect, and literally not the experience of CAP chaplains.

[RADIOMAN015]

If the chaplain in CAP already has a local congregation, he/she will likely NOT be able to support the USAF on any of these missions and may also have permission ONLY to provide support to the local CAP unit.

100% incorrect, and literally not the experience of CAP chaplains.

So you think the Catholic church that allows its' priest to join the local CAP unit to help out is going to let him go off for many weeks performing missions for the USAF    Now if the priest is retired and not affiliated than that might be possible.  They also could become civilian contractors for the USAF.  I know when I was in the AF we had some that filled in and got paid for it.   

We recently recruited a chaplain (not of Catholic denomination) and his bishop did clarify with the individual what he would be doing BEFORE he signed the permission, and it wasn't being deployed anywhere but to help the local unit.
RM 

[Eclipse]

If the chaplain in CAP already has a local congregation, he/she will likely NOT be able to support the USAF on any of these missions and may also have permission ONLY to provide support to the local CAP unit.

100% incorrect, and literally not the experience of CAP chaplains.

So you think the Catholic church that allows its' priest to join the local CAP unit to help out is going to let him go off for many weeks performing missions for the USAF

Yes.  And who said it would be "weeks"?

Most augnmentee service by CAP chaplains is local to fill in for deployed or otherwise busy military Chaplains - funerals, wedding, counseling, etc.
And just like any other CAP service, it is all voluntary.  If you're busy, you don't go.  Chaplains are no different..

You have one chaplain who's leaders want clarification on his commitment and that equals "no one can do it, anywhere"?

[RADIOMAN015]

If the chaplain in CAP already has a local congregation, he/she will likely NOT be able to support the USAF on any of these missions and may also have permission ONLY to provide support to the local CAP unit.

100% incorrect, and literally not the experience of CAP chaplains.

So you think the Catholic church that allows its' priest to join the local CAP unit to help out is going to let him go off for many weeks performing missions for the USAF

Yes.  And who said it would be "weeks"?

Most augnmentee service by CAP chaplains is local to fill in for deployed or otherwise busy military Chaplains - funerals, wedding, counseling, etc.
And just like any other CAP service, it is all voluntary.  If you're busy, you don't go.  Chaplains are no different..

You have one chaplain who's leaders want clarification on his commitment and that equals "no one can do it, anywhere"?

Well our volunteer chaplain is still active in the ministry with a congregation.  Likely most of CAP's chaplains are retired, and do "fill ins" with other congregations, and would likely have more flexibility in supporting AF missions.

For the active ministers and priests, that join CAP, their prime employer also has a chain of command and that organization (including even at the local church level) may very well have a large say in what a CAP chaplain can and can't do.  Most religions have services on specific days of the week, so if staffing is tight on the outside (e.g. Catholic priests), it's going to be a challenge to get temporary help to fill that (Mass) need on the specific day.    Personally, I would think on most local US bases, there's churches of just about every mainstream religious denomination just out the gate and the world won't end if a particular denomination isn't represented.    Surely what the original post/Fox News broadcast seems to focus more on overseas/war zones than in the US.

BTW, my military experience was that most local military bases usually get augmented via the local religious organizations and not Civil Air Patrol.   Never heard of CAP providing any support at any of the 9 US bases I was stationed at during my active duty career.
RM             

[Ed Bos]

^ That's a very scientific study ... N = 1.

Your experience is YOURS. Go ask around with the subject matter experts before you assert this nonsense publicly.

[RADIOMAN015]

^ That's a very scientific study ... N = 1.

Your experience is YOURS. Go ask around with the subject matter experts before you assert this nonsense publicly.

What's is your heartburn about?   Surely CAP "retired" chaplains likely do continue to provide a service, BUT I've never personally seen that -- I've seen local priests (on an ever changing schedule of different ones)  utilized as auxiliary chaplains.    Regarding military chaplains, I think other than overseas/war zone, and perhaps some training bases state side, they have much less impact today since many military members and their families live off base and make use of community religious resources where they live.    Hey I went to confession once and I think the penance was being placed on the base Catholic Chaplain's Financial Committee (at the time the AF did not fund for any religious specific items, they are bought from funds collected from the parishoners). :angel:   

My guess is CAP really doesn't have that many Catholic chaplains in its' ranks anyways.  If they can help the AF out, that would be great and I salute them for their service :clap:
RM     

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

As someone who gave serious thought to going to seminary (Lutheran) and who has known several CAP chaplains, my experience with them is not like RM's, at least not across-the-board.

I think it has a LOT to do with how their church denomination is governed as to how much freedom they have to minister in non-standard ways.

The Roman Catholic Church is probably THE most top-down branch of Christendom in the world...everything flows from the Vatican...although Eastern Orthodox and some of the more conservative Anglicans come close.  If the Bishop/Archbishop/Cardinal/Pope says you can, you can, if they say you can't, you can't.

Methodists and some Lutherans have a similar structure, though usually not as rigid.

Presbyterians, Congregationalists and especially Baptists tend to be a lot more congregational (especially Baptists) and thus have more leeway.  One squadron I served in had a Chaplain who was an Independent Baptist minister and it was a pain getting ecclesiastical endorsement for him because his denomination has very little in the way of higher structure.

We later had a Presbyterian chaplain who was in the process of getting approval to augment a nearby Air National Guard wing, but then he got a call to a congregation in another state.

As far as other faiths (Jewish, Muslim), I know little to nothing about how they're governed.

[Major Lord]

Some priests are "owned" by an order, and can go and do pretty much only what their order allows them to do. There are Diocesan Priests who are more "free agents" , as well as semi-retired or fully retired priests who do fill-in work for vacations, sick priests, etc. Most of these guys are on pretty minimal incomes, and it would be a real hardship for a lot of priests to do much more than the occasional service. One of our locals, a retired full Bird Colonel of the USAF Chaplaincy, fill in at Travis on a regular basis. I have tried to recruit him to CAP many times, but his order won't let him "freelance". Another factor could well be that the President has pretty much  declared war on the Roman Catholic Church, and priests are not exactly feeling the love from Uncle Sam right now.

Major Lord

[Chappie]

For the record .... only CAP Chaplains who meet the academic requirements of an active duty/reserve/guard chaplain (72 hour graduate degree in theology or pastoral care from an accredited institution) can serve as a "force multiplier".  While that is simply volunteer, these chaplains fill in on week-ends or during the week when they are available at the request of a base/wing chaplain in the case of their chaplains being deployed.  These "force multipliers" fill the pulpit, counsel, officiate marriages or funerals, flight-line ministries, etc.  Strictly volunteer...nothing is mandated.  On the other hand, there are a great number of CAP chaplains who are waivered (that is -- they have an accredited Bachelors but no 72 hour graduate degree; however, they have 5 or more years of experience as a pastor, priest, rabbi, iman, etc).  I am one of those waivered chaplains and am content to carry out my responsibilities as a CAP chaplain.  A vast majority of our CAP chaplains do not live near an active USAF (reserve or ANG) base (which is our primary "client" -- there are a few that assist  Army/National Guard/State Reserve units...but they need to meet the same stated requirements above pertaining to education).

[Chappie]

I think it has a LOT to do with how their church denomination is governed as to how much freedom they have to minister in non-standard ways.

That is true....I have had my share of trying to assist chaplain applicants with their ecclesiatical endorsements.  Often it involves simply describing what the duties/responsibilities would be.  Sad to say I have encountered a couple of groups that were so territoritorial or not in the "out of the box" thinking when it comes to allowing its ministers to participate in CAP chaplaincy.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

For the record .... only CAP Chaplains who meet the academic requirements of an active duty/reserve/guard chaplain (72 hour graduate degree in theology or pastoral care from an accredited institution) can serve as a "force multiplier". 

Sir, isn't that what most major denominations require for ordination?

I am a Lutheran (Missouri Synod) and every pastor I have ever known has had at least an M.Div.  The Presbyterian chaplain I mentioned was working on his Th.D. (I think) when he got the call to another state.

I have no idea what the credentials of our Independent Baptist chaplain were.

I think that being clergy in one of the more small-e episcopally-governed denominations (RCC, Orthodox, Episcopal/Anglican, Methodist) might be hard to make a commitment to CAP, since they can get moved around almost at the will of their bishop/archbishop/superintendent.  A Methodist minister (and Army vet) once told me "it's almost like I'm still in the Army...I have to go where the bishop sends me, sometimes with very little notice."

[Sleepwalker]

A few years back, a CAP Chaplain (Catholic) held the regular Sunday services on the local base (Army), and performed other services (weddings, funerals, etc.) covering for the regular Priest who was deployed to Iraq with his troops.  So it must happen at least some of the time.     

[AngelWings]

Problem solver: Signing bonuses. 'Nuff said. I know many people, no matter what social status (high class to lower class) who'll sign away 4 years just because some extra money is on the table. I don't mean to sound young or stupid, but I've seen it with my own two eyes.

[RADIOMAN015]

Problem solver: Signing bonuses. 'Nuff said. I know many people, no matter what social status (high class to lower class) who'll sign away 4 years just because some extra money is on the table. I don't mean to sound young or stupid, but I've seen it with my own two eyes.

Actually if you read the initial article, the DOD is now paying part of the tuition for schooling for catholic priests, with the expectation of some required military active duty (as is the same with physicians), so there is a plan.

Also remember that depending upon the religion/ order branch, that so called "chain of command" also may have a say regarding IF a priest can stay in for a long period of time in order to make retirement in the military.   Should be interesting to see what the future brings with this staffing issue
RM 

[Eclipse]

Chaplains join CAP, they volunteer when they can, just like every other member.

Any drama on the side of their denomination is between them and their church, just like any other employer.

If you can go, great, if you can't , no problem.

Next pretend issue...

[abdsp51]

 There are also many other ordained ministers in the chaplain's corp.  The clipped focused on one faith in particular and not the overall numbers for the corp.

[RADIOMAN015]

Chaplains join CAP, they volunteer when they can, just like every other member.

Any drama on the side of their denomination is between them and their church, just like any other employer.

If you can go, great, if you can't , no problem.

Next pretend issue...

To the military this is not a pretend issue.

To the CAP Chaplain Corps, surely they would like to help IF THEY CAN.   The point is that even when serving as a volunteer in CAP they may have restrictions placed on them, which may be greater than what the average non chaplain member has to deal with.     Many if not most 'civilian" members when off from scheduled work can do what they please.   With clergy it is likely a 24 hour a day commitment to their congregation.
RM     

[Eclipse]

No, the issue is you want to try and turn any story you can into an indictment of the volunteer paradigm unless it matches the view outside of your window.

Not everyone is on the edge of being fired, works 24x7 with the risk of being fired if he wants a day off, or worse, expects support from his employer to serve the community, and not everyone in CAP pinches nickels like they were white gloved cells.

[Private Investigator]

BTW

Happy Easter   

[Chappie]

For the record .... only CAP Chaplains who meet the academic requirements of an active duty/reserve/guard chaplain (72 hour graduate degree in theology or pastoral care from an accredited institution) can serve as a "force multiplier". 

Sir, isn't that what most major denominations require for ordination?

Not all major denominations require a Masters/MDiv for ordination.  Several denominations have their own schools where Theological/Pastoral ministries are offered in the Bachelors program (I am one of those guys).   That is one of the reasons for the waiver clause for CAP Chaplains...an accredited Bachelors plus 5 years of full-time pastoral ministry.

[Chappie]

Just some additional info on the Chaplain Crisis:  http://www.stripes.com/news/troops-loss-will-be-felt-when-air-force-cuts-chaplain-corps-by-15-percent-1.102746

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/11/air-force-to-cut-chaplains-112710w/

[CAPSGT]

So I know I'm a little late joining this thread, but I thought it was interesting to point out that one of the Army Chaplains in that video (the CPT at 54 seconds in and again towards the end) is coincidentally a CAP Lt Col. 

[lordmonar]

I don't really understand the problem.

When the USAF needs MQ-1 maintainers....they hire them.
When the USAF needs security police for their bases....they hire them.

If the USAF needs preists......hire them.

[PHall]

I don't really understand the problem.

When the USAF needs MQ-1 maintainers....they hire them.
When the USAF needs security police for their bases....they hire them.

If the USAF needs preists......hire them.

The repeal of DADT hasn't helped either.

[FARRIER]

I don't really understand the problem.

When the USAF needs MQ-1 maintainers....they hire them.
When the USAF needs security police for their bases....they hire them.

If the USAF needs preists......hire them.

That makes sense, that isn't allowed! : - )

[bflynn]

If the USAF needs preists......hire them.

I know in the case of the Catholic Church, they are also short on priests, so Bishops are ordering priests to leave the military to serve in local parishes.

This has been a developing problem for a long time, it isn't about any recent changes.

[lordmonar]

If the USAF needs preists......hire them.

I know in the case of the Catholic Church, they are also short on priests, so Bishops are ordering priests to leave the military to serve in local parishes.

This has been a developing problem for a long time, it isn't about any recent changes.

So the real problem is not that the military is facing a chaplain crisis....but the Catholic Church is suffering a preist crisis.....

[bflynn]

Yes, the RCC is short of priests too.

But the issue isn't limited to just priests, it's across the board.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

bflynn is right.

It's not just the RCC.  My own church, the Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod) has a profound clergy shortage.  I think all the historical "mainline" denominations are.

PHall:  What does the repeal of DADT have to do with this specific issue?

[MSG Mac]

PHall:  What does the repeal of DADT have to do with this specific issue?

He's implying that clergy in general and the Catholic priesthood in particular are homosexual.

[johnnyb47]

PHall:  What does the repeal of DADT have to do with this specific issue?

He's implying that clergy in general and the Catholic priesthood in particular are homosexual.

Or perhaps that repealing DADT has created an unattractive environment in which a person who believes homosexuality is a sin would have to work? Thereby making it that much more difficult to recruit both locally AND from the top down of a religious organization with those beliefs.
Not that I do or do not believe this myself.... just saying his comment may have been a LITTLE less sinister than what you were thinking.

[bflynn]

Or perhaps that repealing DADT has created an unattractive environment in which a person who believes homosexuality is a sin would have to work? Thereby making it that much more difficult to recruit both locally AND from the top down of a religious organization with those beliefs.

That's the way I read it.  However, the decline has been happening for over 10 years, so the statement isn't supported by the data.  At best you might make a claim that since the repeal of DADT, there as been an acceleration of the decline, but I have no data for that.

Perhaps a general decline in the interest in religion in our country?  I do find it worrying that service members would not have sufficient chaplains.  It's never been an easy job.

[Chappie]

PHall:  What does the repeal of DADT have to do with this specific issue?

He's implying that clergy in general and the Catholic priesthood in particular are homosexual.

Or perhaps that repealing DADT has created an unattractive environment in which a person who believes homosexuality is a sin would have to work? Thereby making it that much more difficult to recruit both locally AND from the top down of a religious organization with those beliefs.
Not that I do or do not believe this myself.... just saying his comment may have been a LITTLE less sinister than what you were thinking.

^^ Spot on remark. ^^  Remember that chaplains are endorsed by the faith group/denomination.  One is ordained by the faith group/denomination and must maintain their loyalty to the tenets of belief of said group.  The ordained minister is endorsed by (approved) by his/her faith group to serve as an AD/reserve/guard and CAP Chaplain.   Many chaplains in both the military and CAP have expressed concern about the government mandating how the chaplain responds to the repeal of DADT policy (i.e."Are we mandated to perform same-sex marriages as Chaplains if our faith group/denomination disapproves of the practive?").   Given the choice -- it is much easier to serve in the confines of your local parish setting than it would be to serve as a chaplain in military or in CAP.   The repeal of the DADT has definitely  raised questions when trying to recruit chaplains -- which was already a chore.   

[Chappie]

I don't really understand the problem.

When the USAF needs MQ-1 maintainers....they hire them.
When the USAF needs security police for their bases....they hire them.

If the USAF needs preists......hire them.

^^Perzactly.^^  The budget cutbacks facing the USAF Chaplain Corps hasn't helped the shortage of Chaplains.   The CAP Chaplain Corps was impacted in 2001 when the USAF eliminated the National Staff Chaplain assigned to CAP-USAF at the NHQ.  At first the CAP Corporation hired a Director for the Chaplain Corps to handle the day to day...week in/week out administration of the program.  In 2005, the position was eliminated in favor of letting the volunteer side of the house administer the program with a paid NHQ employee in the office.  The CAP Chief of Chaplains was/is responsible for what the corporate director duties.   An overwhelming task to say the least.  While some of our CAP Chaplains serve as "force multipliers"....bless them for that, I am very content to fulfill my primary appointment as a CAP Chaplain.  We have nearly 50% (49.8%) of our squadrons that do not have either a Chaplain or Character Development Instructor.  It is that shortage that I am trying to address on the left coast as I work with Wing Chaplains and Wing Commanders

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would imagine that the Navy would really have chaplain shortages.  After all, their "skypilots" have to provide chaplaincy to the Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard (and USPHS and NOAA Corps?).

I did know that chaplains cannot be made to break their ordination vows/denominational rules.  In my church we practice "close(d) communion" and a LC-MS chaplain cannot be ordered to go against that.  The same would go for a same-gender blessing, I would think.

It's actually becoming a little bit of a problem for Lutheran chaplains specifically, since doctrinally the Evangelical Lutheran Church In America (ELCA; the nation's largest Lutheran denomination) have gone ahead with openly gay pastors and blessing same-gender marriages (since 2009).  Recently the LC-MS (reluctantly) ended the long-standing agreement with the ELCA about assisting one another with military chaplaincy issues because of that.  The smaller Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod does not permit its clergy to be chaplains because of "fellowship" issues.

Are there Unitarian chaplains in the Armed Forces?  They cover such a wide spectrum of belief (from atheistic to Wiccan practitioners to relatively few traditional Christians) that I don't know where they'd fit on the spectrum.

Also, what about Eastern Orthodox?  I had a professor in college who was from the former USSR.  He was Russian Orthodox and they followed a slightly different calendar.

[Chaplaindon]

As a now-retired CAP Chaplain, I offer to this discussion an additional reason why Chaplaincy numbers (as well as clergy in general) have been declining for some time now.

An increasing number of clergy candidates, those entering the process for "ordination" (or whatever it is called in a particular faith tradition) are older, so-called second career. In other words they have been in a secular career field for some time prior to answering their call to the ministry. Average ages for entering seminary students likewise are rising each year. At the seminary I attended, the year I entered the average age was 39.5.

This fact can have at least two -obvious- impacts on the military chaplaincy.

1.  As with me, by the time a candidate andswers her/his call, they may be too old to enter the military as a chaplain. I know that at various times branch services have raised the age limit to as high as 60 (maybe higher) for Roman Catholic chaplain candidates. Nevertheless, there is a smaller population of available candidates, especially younger first career ones. Fewer age-acceptable candidates, fewer chaplains.

2.  As the entry age for a chaplain (or a civilian cleric) goes up the potential career length necessarily decreases. Whereas a 25 year old, new seminary grad, might have a potential of 35 years prior to age 60, a 42 year old, as I was when I completed my MDiv, will have a much shorter potential career. Shorter careers increases the need for clergy.

I really doubt that DADT has, or will have, as substantive effect on the size of the military chaplaincy, since no chaplain is required to subordinate the teachings of her/his ecclesiatical endorser (the denomination) as a condition of their chaplaincy appointment. Rather it is the opposite. One is granted the privilege of serving as a chaplain (CAP chaplaincy included) BY their denomination or faith group.

For example, as a United Methodist elder, even while serving as a CAP Chaplain (or hypothetically as a military chaplain), I'd be contrained to follow the rules of the UMC. For example, UMC clergy are forbidden to conduct same-sex marriages (regardless of their own personal beliefs on the matter). A UMC military chaplain therefore could not be forced to conduct such a wedding in a military capacity either. The rules of their endorsing agency will prevail, or else they lose that endorsement and have to leave the service.

I hope/pray that the chaplain shortages are resolved. This is a unique and needed ministry that cannot be permitted to wither away.

[Major Lord]

I would imagine that the Navy would really have chaplain shortages.  After all, their "skypilots" have to provide chaplaincy to the Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard (and USPHS and NOAA Corps?).

I did know that chaplains cannot be made to break their ordination vows/denominational rules.  In my church we practice "close(d) communion" and a LC-MS chaplain cannot be ordered to go against that.  The same would go for a same-gender blessing, I would think.

It's actually becoming a little bit of a problem for Lutheran chaplains specifically, since doctrinally the Evangelical Lutheran Church In America (ELCA; the nation's largest Lutheran denomination) have gone ahead with openly gay pastors and blessing same-gender marriages (since 2009).  Recently the LC-MS (reluctantly) ended the long-standing agreement with the ELCA about assisting one another with military chaplaincy issues because of that.  The smaller Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod does not permit its clergy to be chaplains because of "fellowship" issues.

Are there Unitarian chaplains in the Armed Forces?  They cover such a wide spectrum of belief (from atheistic to Wiccan practitioners to relatively few traditional Christians) that I don't know where they'd fit on the spectrum.

Also, what about Eastern Orthodox?  I had a professor in college who was from the former USSR.  He was Russian Orthodox and they followed a slightly different calendar.

Eastern Orthodox  and a number of other "rites" (Byzantine, Coptic, etc.) are considered by Roman Catholics to have valid and licit priests, who are deemed acceptable to consecrate the species in a Mass. (give communion) Roman Catholics are not permitted by canon law from participating in church services where some form of communion is carried out with bread and wine ( or fruit juice) . They can of course attend non-denominational services, but technically, their participation has limitations. This puts Catholics in a pickle, since the central practice of their religion requires participation in a mass, no non-priest can serve as an alternative, whereas, most other religions are fine with "outsiders" participating. Non-Catholics ( or the nearest metric equivalent) are not permitted to receive communion. And to address Phil's bi-curious interests, a priest cannot technically give communion to an unrepentant, practicing homosexual , so the repeal of DADT creates a bit of a problem. The RCC in America is getting a lot of its priests from South America and Africa, and in many cases, paying for their education in their home country, where its usually a lot less expensive. I don't think non-citizen chaplains are going to happen, unless perhaps they work as civilian contractors ( Blackwater Chaplains? A new marketing opportunity!)

Major Lord

[bflynn]

the repeal of DADT creates a bit of a problem.

It does, but that isn't the reason for the decline in military chaplains.  The number of chaplains has been declining for over 10 years.

[PHall]

PHall:  What does the repeal of DADT have to do with this specific issue?

He's implying that clergy in general and the Catholic priesthood in particular are homosexual.

Or perhaps that repealing DADT has created an unattractive environment in which a person who believes homosexuality is a sin would have to work? Thereby making it that much more difficult to recruit both locally AND from the top down of a religious organization with those beliefs.
Not that I do or do not believe this myself.... just saying his comment may have been a LITTLE less sinister than what you were thinking.

You can always depend on some folks here seeing shadows that don't exist.

When DADT was in the process of being repealed there was a number of military chaplains who said that they could not continue to serve the military  because the repeal of DADT went against their beliefs and the beliefs of their denomination.