Arizona senator has lofty plans for Civil Air Patrol

[Lancer]

I won't post the entire article, but I will snip out the most interesting bit.

In Harper's grand plan, the National Guard would train the civilian militia, the Air National Guard would train the Civil Air Patrol, and the entire effort would be paid for by the state.

http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2010/11/24/harper-proposes-state-sanctioned-militia-to-patrol-border/

I would HIGHLY doubt this would ever happen, with CAP anyways...and even starting up a new state based civilian militia would be a stretch. They'd have every gun toting nut job coming to Arizona hoping for an open season on border crossing illegals.

[Flying Pig]

CAP already does it in CA.

[Major Carrales]

You know, the Bill of Rights already provides for "well regulated militias,"  it seems to me that having the State create an organized Citizen's Militia, as opposed to the unorganized ones you allude to with the phrase "every gun toting nut job coming to Arizona hoping for an open season on border crossing illegals" would be a better definition.

In any case, historically, citizen's militias have existed to answer local emergencies and the like.

Other than the politically charged last statement you made, I see no problem with this.

[lordmonar]

As far a what AZ wants to do as a state.....I won't comment.

But CAP flying for the state would have to be an AFAM.....and Posse Commutatis would kick in.

[ZigZag911]

As far a what AZ wants to do as a state.....I won't comment.

But CAP flying for the state would have to be an AFAM.....and Posse Commutatis would kick in.

Unless it was considered in the same light as CD missions; we report objectively what we see (or fly LEO personnel), the 'customer' determines the nature of the activity observed.

As long as CAP is not involved in 'hot pursuit' there might be a window here (without getting into the pros & cons of AZ approach as a state).

[RiverAux]

There are some stupid legislators in Arizona -- none have apparently bothered to read the laws of the state which already authorize the creation of a State Defense Force.  Not too long ago they tried passing a law creating a quasi-SDF but it got vetoed. 

As to whether its a good idea to use a SDF or a "civilian militia" (which seems to be as illogical a term as I could think of) is another story, but the mechanisms to do it are already in place.  Their SDF could even have an air arm so there would be no need to bring CAP into it. 

I think Pineda testified before Congress at some point talking about the role CAP was playing along the border.  I thought I'd saved a copy of his testimony, but can't find it. 

[Flying Pig]

Did I mention CAP already patrols the border?

[JeffDG]

People who talk about "creating" the militia don't understand the concept very well...

Here's the definition of the militia from 10 USC § 311 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/usc_sec_10_00000311----000-.html

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

[RiverAux]

Yes, but CAP rarely says anything about that mission in public.  Pineda's testimony is one of the few examples of times where we have highlighted this activity. 

[Eclipse]

But CAP flying for the state would have to be an AFAM.....and Posse Commutatis would kick in.

CAP's PC-Status does not begin and end with the mission symbol, either it applies or it doesn't.

With that said, why would these need to be AFAM's?  We fly self-funded and locally-funded missions all the time under
corporate symbols.  The only issue/difference is FECA coverage.

[RiverAux]

Lots of law enforcement support flying done as corporate missions. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

River Aux is correct.

A side effect of the 2000 legislation making CAP an auxiliary of the USAF only when performing AF missions is that we are NOT a military auxiliary when flying missions for other than federal agencies.

As such, when flying under contract to a state govt., we are not covered by Posse Comitatus,. 

Law Enforcement missions must be approved by the NOC, but that is our internal regs, not a statute.

[JohnKachenmeister]

This is mere political posturing.  The Gov. of Arizona has the authority to call up the National Guard already, and post them on the border or anywhere else in Arizona for as long as she wants to pay them.

She also has the authority to create a non-federal State Defense Force simply by directing the Adjutant General to do so.  The AG has the power to contract CAP to fly patrols for them anytime they want to pay the freight.

I'm pretty sure AZ doesn't have the $$, or they would have done this already, probably after the first rancher was murdered by the Mexicans.

Of course Napolitano vetoed the bill... she wants as many Mexicans in America as she can get so they can be turned into Democrat voters when amnesty is granted.

[RiverAux]

Lots of law enforcement support flying done as corporate missions.

Well, maybe not "lots" except maybe in certain places.  We probably could be doing more, but just like we could be doing more ground SAR, it takes a lot of time to lay the groundwork with all the local and state agencies that aren't used to working with us in that capacity.

[RiverAux]

Of course Napolitano vetoed the bill... she wants as many Mexicans in America as she can get so they can be turned into Democrat voters when amnesty is granted.

Actually she vetoed it for the same reasons that you just agreed with -- the authority to form a state militia already exists in AZ state law so it wasn't necessary and would cause confusion with current law.  Also, I don't know if you looked much at that specific bill, but it was very unworkable and it deserved being vetoed (and I'm a strong supporter of having SDFs in every state). 

[JohnKachenmeister]

No, I did not see the specific bill, but Napolitano declared me a "Threat to National Security" because I am a veteran who disagrees with Obama.  She's also the one who said "The system worked" after the Christmas Bomber was stopped in Detroit.  Apparently, the "System" is to have an alert Dutchman on every flight.

Somehow, these cognitions do not generate an abundance of trust.

[flyboy53]

Don't forget that most every state in our nation has had an organized SDF or State Guard functioning as a Reserve of the National Guard in one manner or another, expecially when the times Guard is federalized.

I'm not sure how many still exist. Big ones that were in effect during World War II included PA, IN, CA, OH, and NY. PA's was deactivated after WWII. I'm not sure what exists in AZ. I do know, however, that NY has a State Guard that did active service during Sept. 11 and, at one point, could field a force of 9,000 men and women. NY also is organized so that there is a State Guard component of the Air National Guard.

Also, most CAP Wings have active MOUs that allow CAP to assist state government agencies as necessary --as evidenced by county Emergency Management who can request CAP assistance through their state agencies and the Counter Drug Program, which usually requires a local law enforcement sponsor who requests the missions. Besides, CAP did a similar mission in WWII along the border. Wasn't that what Southern Liaison Patrol was all about?

As far as Posse Commutatis, how does that apply when the CAP would only be performing an aerial mission similar to Counter Drug. It isn't CAP's role to arrest anyone in that mission, only to observe and report, why wouldn't border patrol be any different?

[RiverAux]

About half the states currently have an SDF today including TX, CA, and NM. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

To my understanding, CAP does not have a delineated state role, and we would need to avoid anything that would conflict with Posse Comitatus.

Therefore, something like this would best be done by an SDF with aviation assets.

I think South Carolina's SDF has some, based on Army Aviation, and Texas' SG has an Air Wing.  New York and Indiana used to have Air sections in their SDF's but not anymore.

l wonder what Arizona Sen. John McCain, long a foe of CAP, thinks...

[RiverAux]

Well, I think we can assume that the guy who proposed this has no real clue as to the procedures necessary to request CAP to participate in a state mission but as has been said CAP provides law enforcement support to local and state agencies without causing PCA conflicts. 

The only SDFs with actual flying assets are Alaska (state owned planes) and Virginia (use private planes owned by members).  Several other SDFs have elements that provide support to the Air NG, but only on the ground.