Upset by How People Treat Us

[2ltAlexD]

Hi there everyone. I have recently run into some really mean people online over the past few weeks. Tell me if you guys have had similar experiences. When I tell them about CAP and what we do, I have had some people call it the "fake military" or "boyscouts in the air" I feel this is just really sad. We serve our country just as much as anyone else does. It just really hurts.

[sarflyer]

It is sad but that's how they make themselves feel better.  By putting us down.  My response has always been "it too bad you feel that way".   Works almost every time.

[RiverAux]

Either they really feel that way in which case you aren't going to change their mind, or more likely, they're just trying to make you mad because they're trolls.  Either way, the best course is to just ignore them.

[flyerthom]

Some people are just that way. I do see it getting worse because of cultural "me first, I'm special" attitude. I remember a case running volunteer EMS. My partner and I went into an all night diner and some drunk shouted "here come the heroes!" He's was just being mean. People like that are the first to scream when they have to wait and scream louder when the bill arrives. In the grand scheme of things they can only hurt us if we let them.


(FWIW - my partner and I were seated just a couple a tables away from the drunk who continued to be loud and obnoxious. We started swapping war stories sort of loudly. Inside of 10 minutes he was outside reversing the path of his meal. Maybe we should not have described the open fracture so ah distinctly) 

[Smithsonia]

If they are just being provocative and snarky let it go. BUT, perhaps they don't know better. Perhaps they are just repeating what some one else told them. Perhaps this can be a teaching moment.

If you think this is the case; then respond in a professional and courteous manner. "How many people have you helped today?" We helped dozens! "How many lives have you saved?" We've saved thousands. How many people did you train to save lives? How much does your country count on you in times of need? Just like the Red Cross and Salvation Army our country calls on us to help Law enforcement, Fire Service, the National Guard, Border Patrol, State Police, and even the Boy Scouts.
Additionally you might ask them --Have you set an example for young men and women today? Have you done anything more than just say, "I'm believe in the military folks in the field... then the person goes on to say something derogatory about what a few of them did badly.

"What better way to spend the money than have highly qualified volunteers do what you can not, will not, and don't appreciate. "That said, one day, if you need us, we'll gladly save you too!"

Boy Scouts of the Air? -- I was a boy scout, and eagle scout, an open water rescue lifeguard and I think it was all good training for CAP.

We're not perfect... no institution our size is. Even when we don't find a lost party we can quickly tell others where they ain't -- so in this way we support other Search and Rescue teams so they can hone in on an intelligent area of possibility. We qualify, train, lead, and help anywhere our country thinks best.
I'm sorry that you didn't know this (Mr. Snarky commentator) I think that was our only great failing today. BUT, in this I hope I've been helpful to you. Is there anything else I can do for you?
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[Major Carrales]

Hi there everyone. I have recently run into some really mean people online over the past few weeks. Tell me if you guys have had similar experiences. When I tell them about CAP and what we do, I have had some people call it the "fake military" or "boyscouts in the air" I feel this is just really sad. We serve our country just as much as anyone else does. It just really hurts.

I cannot stand the mentality of those of which you write.  CAP is, and always will be, what it is... Citizen Volunteers working to preform Missions For America.  What we do has been in place since the 1940s and is one of the most pure forms of volunteerism around.

Those that choose to see us as the "fake military" or "boyscouts in the air" miss the point.  They likely have it out for the Salvation Army and the Red Cross Volunteers as well.

Simply put, when we do our job we are obligated to do it well.  When we do "do it well," then what these people write and say is pure drivel.

Be more proud of what we are than ashamed of what we are not...never allow yourself to be harmed by such talk.

By the way, I should like to get back into brass.  I took out a trumpet to do bugle calls for the cadets the other day and realized how out of shape I was.  20 years on a violin and trombone with limited practice on the trumpet or fluglehorn is showing through.  Any tips?  PM would probably make MIKE happy.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I very seldom get comments, because I look mean and perpetually angry.

But if I did, I'm afraid I would have to demonstrate how it is that I earned a Master of Arts degree in Smartassology.

Like the "Fake Military" comment... my answer would probably be:  "Fake military?  I wish!  I got drafted back in 1966, and nobody will tell me what form I need to fill out to go home!"

And the Boy Scouts of the Air comment...  "You got it wrong there, Buffalo Breath, Boy Scouts do GOOD deeds.  I'm just happy to be out of jail."

A few weeks ago, we stopped for pizza after a mission, and some mouthy jerk said to me "What's with you guys?  Couldn't you make it in the Real Air Force?"  I loudly said:  "Sure, I was making it just fine until that last incident.  I'm still not supposed to talk about it, but it was the one involving the bottle of Wesson Oil, the general's daughter, and a duck."

Mr. Bigmouth left the restaurant while everybody was laughing.  Not only the CAP guys but ALL the customers and staff.

[Turk]

Speaking for myself, I seldom encounter scorn about CAP... just mostly innocent ignorance. When asked about CAP, I try 'n win 'em over with words like "volunteers," "Katrina," and "nine-eleven." It generally works.

I also find that people who make remarks like "boy scouts of the air" (whether they're civilian or military) have never sat in the left seat. I still remember an F-15 hotshot who, far from sneering at me, said, "You're flying - I manage a weapons system." 

[2ltAlexD]

Yeah, alot of times it's ignorence. I was also told once that military Dress Blues look like bus driver's uniforms hahahaha! People just need to learn about what we do more.

[Turk]

Yeah, alot of times it's ignorence. I was also told once that military Dress Blues look like bus driver's uniforms hahahaha! People just need to learn about what we do more.

Bus drivah?!? You're a regular riot, Alice! 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Speaking for myself, I seldom encounter scorn about CAP... just mostly innocent ignorance. When asked about CAP, I try 'n win 'em over with words like "volunteers," "Katrina," and "nine-eleven." It generally works.

I also find that people who make remarks like "boy scouts of the air" (whether they're civilian or military) have never sat in the left seat. I still remember an F-15 hotshot who, far from sneering at me, said, "You're flying - I manage a weapons system." 

I had an Air Force recruiter say essentially the same thing.  We were at an Air Show, and the AF recruiting tent was across the ramp from our recruiting tent.  Some kid went up to the AF recruiter and said "Sign me up... I want to fly!"The AF sergeant said, "Then you better go across the way and join those guys, they do more flying than us, we're going to UAV's!"

[JohnKachenmeister]

Bus drivah?!? You're a regular riot, Alice! 

But... the guys who called the Air Force "Bus drivers" because of the look of their uniforms weren't ignorant civilians.  They were probably Marines or Army troopers.

[Smithsonia]

In my squadron we've got 12 military pilots. 6 or 7 flew in Vietnam... all over the North. One on the same mission that took down John McCain. Two of our military pilots have been to Iraq. One just got back. One flies Blackhawks and does National Guard Rescues. Two more of our pilots are seasoned Airline Captains. Two more did the same thing for a full airline career.

Boy Scouts of the Air... probably so... if the Boy Scouts were fire breathing armed and dangerous stone cold on target multiple tours over hostile territory under real life live fire and in a plane with no stealth, that now volunteer time to the country and fly all over Colorado's High Country in single engines and spent time looking for and helping with Steve Fosset/Katrina/Rita/Greensburgh, KS etc. in Cessnas... boy scouts. Yeah boy scouts. By the way, I'm not one of these guys. BUT, when they fly left seat I'm happy to climb on board as a scanner/observer/check pilot or paperwork assistant boy scout. I'll buy the pizza and beer after-hours just to listen to them talk, and I've got 3000 hours in Turbines and twins myself.

With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[SJFedor]

A few weeks ago, we stopped for pizza after a mission, and some mouthy jerk said to me "What's with you guys?  Couldn't you make it in the Real Air Force?"  I loudly said:  "Sure, I was making it just fine until that last incident.  I'm still not supposed to talk about it, but it was the one involving the bottle of Wesson Oil, the general's daughter, and a duck."

Mr. Bigmouth left the restaurant while everybody was laughing.  Not only the CAP guys but ALL the customers and staff.

OMG Kach, you just totally brightened up my day. I'm gonna hafta use that one at some point.

[Turk]

The Navy also calls the Coasties bus drivers. In the final analysis, it's really no big insult.

I'll say this - When in uniform I've had lots of strangers walk up and thank me.  I dunno if they know about CAP, and it really doesn't matter, either.  I also get polite nods from cops all the time, and even a salute now and then.

We serve.   

[♠SARKID♠]

Hi there everyone. I have recently run into some really mean people online over the past few weeks. Tell me if you guys have had similar experiences. When I tell them about CAP and what we do, I have had some people call it the "fake military" or "boyscouts in the air" I feel this is just really sad. We serve our country just as much as anyone else does. It just really hurts.

More than everybody else does

Fake Military - Its hard to say its fake when its an attachment of a military service.  If we weren't overseen by the AF, then yes they would have a valid insult.

Boy Scouts in the Air/Blue - We save somebody's life every three and a half days, provide relief for victims in the worst of disasters, and take millions of kilos drugs off the street that would otherwise ruin lives and communities.  Show me a Boy Scout that can say they that.

[lordmonar]

Who really care?

If the individuals don't like CAP....so fine....go away.

If the individual is someone we want to like us....say a County Sherrif, State OEM Director or someone we would want to/need to work with....then we need to find out why they don't like us and try to fix those issues.

Otherwise we will spend a lot of time and heart ache trying to make everyone to like us.....and that just ain't goinna happen.

Be professional.
Follow the rules.
Complete your assigned mission.

What Joe Blow and his freind at the local pub think of my organisation is no skin off my nose.

[wingnut]

When you are asked: " What is Civil Air Patrol?" I always begin with. . .

Our country was at WAR, the world was at War! and the good guys were loosing. Along came the volunteer Pilots, Mechanics, the Aviator Men and Women who flew against the German and Japanese (Yes Grass Hopper, Japanese). Men and Women who for the first days of WWII, flew their own planes, using their money for fuel, maintenance, food. CAP was born. The first Air Medals of WW2 then I morph into the 911 and who we are today, the Cadet Program, Homeland Security, etc, etc. Practice it ,I  can deliver it in a 3 minute lecture, and I mean Lecture. We are Moms Apple Pie, we are the American way, We are the Civil Air Patrol.

Excuse me while I stand up and salute!    :clap:

[cap235629]

More than everybody else does

Fake Military - Its hard to say its fake when its an attachment of a military service.  If we weren't overseen by the AF, then yes they would have a valid insult.

Be careful cadet when you make references to the attachment to the military.  CAP is NOT the military.  We are a CIVILIAN auxiliary to the United States Air Force.  Let's not assume an affiliation that is not there.  Outside of the cadet program most squadrons are at best "paramilitary" that is we are set up and organized along military lines but do not follow strict military protocol and regulations.  I am a 2LT GBD and on a SAR mission I would be the person in charge of the ground teams, not LTC Smith, Master pilot even though he "outranks" me.

I am also an honorably discharged active duty Army MP.  None of my CAP experiences even remotely compare to that experience.

Just a word of advice as to some of the factors that go into "How people treat us"

If we are looked upon in an unfavorable light, the first thing we must do is look in the mirror and be humble enough to acknowledge our own contributions to our image.  Walking around with an air of confidence is one thing, assuming the persona of a military member and equating our service to that of the armed forces of this great country is something else entirely.

I have a very good friend who I was in MCJROTC with while in high school.  VERY squared away cadet.  Top Gun of the rifle team, Captain of the Drill Team, Cadet Commander.  Went to Norwich and we thought he would be a general.  Reality, he dropped ROTC after sophomore year and never served a day in the military reserve or active duty.  He quickly realized that being a CADET was by no means close to the real thing.  I offer this to you as a teaching moment. 

How we present ourselves GREATLY impacts the perception people have of us.  Do not make the mistake of equating your experiences to that of our service members.  The public and more importantly VETERANS see right through it and it reflects horribly on our GREAT organization.



Flame away guys but I am only scratching the surface.

[♠SARKID♠]

Be careful cadet when you make references to the attachment to the military....Let's not assume an affiliation that is not there.

With all due respect sir, lets not flame other people's posts on frivolous semantics.

[cap235629]

--^^--

You missed the point entirely

[SarDragon]

With all due respect sir, lets not flame other people's posts on frivolous semantics.

You may see it as frivolous semantics, but the uneducated listener on the street may not, just like the folks who see us in our BDUs and think we are in the military. That's what this thread is all about - educating these people so they have the correct info about who we are and what we do.

[isuhawkeye]

People form opinions based upon experience.  I for one have lost a lot of respect for CAP over the past few years.  Recently on this thread the following guidance was made to CAP members. 

Be professional.
Follow the rules.
Complete your assigned mission.

Unfortunaitly many CAP members are not doing this.  In my recent experience, and on several discussions on this board CAP has continually shown that it is unwilling to follow theses simple guidelines. 

When a state's TAG asks to meet with The National commander before she makes a decision, and she tells him to mind his own business, that is unprofessional.

When a wing ES Point of contact takes two hours to respond to an ES request, that is unprofessional

When a squadron CC is not made aware that his aircraft is flying DR missions, that is unprofessional

When a wing wide training exercise is conducted with out a Mission number, that is unprofessional

When a state agency requests overflight imagery, and you deliver the pictures it to a field office 200 miles away, that is unprofessional.

With these few examples can you see why "professional" responders are hesitant to work with CAP, and why they may be hesitant to say nice things to you.

If the individuals don't like CAP....so fine....go away

I really don't want to go away, because I see so much potential within the organization.  CAP could truly be what so many of you claim it is.  Unfortunately today the organization is no where near its potential.

[2ltAlexD]

We are part of the military family however, and the day we are not the Air Force Auxiliary is the day I leave. What drew me to CAP is the fact that I could still serve this great nation even though I am totally blind. When we go on an Air Force rescue mition, we are part of the military. It makes me sad when people talk like we are totally separate. We should be like the Coast Guard Aux.

[MIKE]

Sorry guys, but from what I've seen of CAP... the people who make fun have a valid point... as unsettling to the membership as that may be.

[Major Carrales]

Sorry guys, but from what I've seen of CAP... the people who make fun have a valid point... as unsettling to the membership as that may be.

Well, I hope you doing more to stave that off that making this sort of comment.

Truth is, we make CAP what is it.  Each of us, individually, represents CAP. 

Some people seem to loath what CAP is and does. It would seem that many of them are in the membership itself.

[O-Rex]

Sorry guys, but from what I've seen of CAP... the people who make fun have a valid point... as unsettling to the membership as that may be.

Good point: I'm upset by how people treat us WITHIN the organization much less outsiders.

When I was AD, I had to give a dog & pony show to a bunch of CAP members, Seniors and Cadets.  Of course the Cadets were well-behaved, but the Seniors were obnoxious.
I had to do them preiodically, and cringed each time.  That stuck with me for years after I got out, until a fellow ex AD-type talked me into joining

Years later, I'm now a member, and little has changed: sure, there's the good-ones who help me keep my sanity (and my faith in the program) but there are alot of unprofessional members out there, as well as those who honestly don't have a clue, and aren't interested in finding one.

The recurring theme in CAP is that many of our wounds are self-inclucted......

[Major Carrales]

When I was AD, I had to give a dog & pony show to a bunch of CAP members, Seniors and Cadets.  Of course the Cadets were well-behaved, but the Seniors were obnoxious.
I had to do them preiodically, and cringed each time.  That stuck with me for years after I got out, until a fellow ex AD-type talked me into joining

...sure, there's the good-ones who help me keep my sanity (and my faith in the program) but there are alot of unprofessional members out there, as well as those who honestly don't have a clue, and aren't interested in finding one.

This is exactally what I have just tried to point out to MIKE.  We create our unit and set the tone for what they will be. Professionalism is the key.  Our aviators need to look professional in action as well as appearance.  This goes from stafety to how CAPF 104s are filled out.

It is up to us to turn this around.  Talking about it on formus like this alone will do nothing.

[MIKE]

You actaully thought you had to point that out to ME, Maj C? 

[Major Carrales]

You actaully thought you had to point that out to ME, Maj C? 

You were the target of opportunity.  

Fact is, until we can get this through to persons as part of the LEVEL I, these problems will presist.  Most Level I training I have observed out side of my unit run from the position of an "inferiority complex" to the USAF and other military. 

I cannot stress enough the comparasions of CAP to these military entries is a classic "apples/oranges" situation.

We are strong for what we are.  Until we embrace that mantra in CAP, that we are our own organization with ties of the USAF, then these will always be that interference.

[MIKE]

We are strong for what we are.  Until we embrace that mantra in CAP, that we are our own organization with ties of the USAF, then these will always be that interference.

Now, this I disgree with.

[Major Carrales]

Now, this I disgree with.

How so?  CAP is the Civil Air Patrol, it has its strengths in being what it is, a group of Civilian Airmen (Minutemen of the Skies) that are called upon by the USAF, and other Government, to accomplish elements of the USAF domestic mission.

Wearing the Uniform is the best manifestation of that link.  However, the USAF does not regulate CAP in the necessary scope for CAP to be considered a "part of the USAF."  It is, the individual CAP officer's responsibility to maintain that professional appearance that will keep CAP a valuable part of the Air Force Team.

Thus, depending on the USAF to "save us" is crazy.  It is up to US to save US.

[Short Field]

CAP is the Civil Air Patrol, it has its strengths in being what it is, a group of Civilian Airmen (Minutemen of the Skies) that are called upon by the USAF, and other Government, to accomplish elements of the USAF domestic mission.

I totally agree with you.   And due to our civilian status, Congress has given us permission to accomplish missions that the miliatry is barred by law from accomplishing.

[O-Rex]

There was another thread in which a member was flamed by his colleagues for changing into his uniform before leaving work to attend a meeting, and what we got out of that thread was that folks who vehemently criticize CAP usually have an axe to grind, often 'sour grapes.'  Then there are others (like me for many years) just keep quiet and smirk.

Again, some of it is deserved, and some of it was what we used to call in the Army "flightsuit-envy."

There's an old saying: "Most of those who matter, don't mind, and most of those who do mind, don't matter."

Do the best you can, put your best foot forward, be humble and encourage others to do the same: regardless, not everyone is going to be a fan. . .

[Smithsonia]

The problem and the solution, as often is the case, exists right here in this thread. If you feel unable to professionally respond to "civilian, military" denigration of the CAP... then don't. Whatever you do, I suggest, don't go nuts, be professional, respectful, and courteous.

However, it is up to us (members of the Patrol) to sell, educate, recruit, straighten-out, engage, and define ourselves. If we don't, no one else will. Say "FEMA" and you think Katrina Failures. Say Homeland Security and you think taking off your shoes off at the airport, or color-coding, or some other vapid thing. However, if there is a responsible and educated reply... then when some one thinks CAP... they'll think of you. You'll be the image. You'll be the memory. You'll be the refined and dignified volunteer that the person that you're dealing with... will tell their friends about. You'll be the face associated with a changed mind. Don't let others identify you. You learn to do it. It's the way to go in every endeavor.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

[Short Field]

Big difference between how people you meet treat you and what someone on the internet says.   Way too many trolls, cyberbullies, and just plain dorks on the internet to ever worry about what they say or think.  

Present company excepted.....sometimes.

[Major Carrales]

Big difference between how people you meet treat you and what someone on the internet says.   Way too many trolls, cyberbullies, and just plain dorks on the internet to ever worry about what they say or think.  

Present company excepted.....sometimes.

The trolls and the like aren't the only problems here.  There are also those that, when people come here for "fellowship" or have legitimate questions to which they desire guidance, they are met with scorn and flipant replies.

I have always seen this as a place for the offering of help to fellow CAP officers and Cadets.  There is no reason anything otherwise.

On other sites where CAP is lambasted, I once got "affected" by the posted drivel against CAP.  However, after working with Cadets, giving an AE presentation to preschoolers and deploying in a real USAF Assigned mission I realized that some words types on the internet could not stand up to the feelings o fservice I felt.

Yes, CAP is not the US Military...but it is valuable service.  Once we all rememeber that, the slings and arrows of our detractors sting a lot less.

[JohnKachenmeister]

--^^--

You missed the point entirely

No, he didn't.

[JohnKachenmeister]

How so?  CAP is the Civil Air Patrol, it has its strengths in being what it is, a group of Civilian Airmen (Minutemen of the Skies) that are called upon by the USAF, and other Government, to accomplish elements of the USAF domestic mission.

Wearing the Uniform is the best manifestation of that link.  However, the USAF does not regulate CAP in the necessary scope for CAP to be considered a "part of the USAF."  It is, the individual CAP officer's responsibility to maintain that professional appearance that will keep CAP a valuable part of the Air Force Team.

Thus, depending on the USAF to "save us" is crazy.  It is up to US to save US.

Actually, Sparky, the AF does control CAP, through the BoG.  If you dont beleive me, ask "The Nameless One."  We are the only military auxiliary that saw combat action in WWII, and we were re-organized as a corporation in order to allow us to provide services  to agencies other than the AF... NOT to create some sort of separate corporate entity.

[Major Carrales]

Actually, Sparky, the AF does control CAP, through the BoG.  If you dont beleive me, ask "The Nameless One."  We are the only military auxiliary that saw combat action in WWII, and we were re-organized as a corporation in order to allow us to provide services  to agencies other than the AF... NOT to create some sort of separate corporate entity.

Yes, I know this...however, if we are expecting the USAF to "save us" or want them to somehow "take us over and amke us more professional" that is unrealistic.  The groups of people who will save us will come from each of us "having faith in CAP" and making it more professional.

We are not posers and pretenders, we are what we are and have been what we have been.

[2ltAlexD]

Yes, I just can't stand when people say we have nothing to do with the Air Force. I was raised in a military family, so I was taught how important auxiliarists are. My dad described us as those that aid the Air Force in things here at home when the combat Airmen are at war.

[♠SARKID♠]

Yes, I just can't stand when people say we have nothing to do with the Air Force. I was raised in a military family, so I was taught how important auxiliarists are. My dad described us as those that aid the Air Force in things here at home when the combat Airmen are at war.

I've always said that we do many of the Air Force's humanitarian missions.

[jpnelson82]

When you are asked: " What is Civil Air Patrol?" I always begin with. . .

Our country was at WAR, the world was at War! and the good guys were loosing. Along came the volunteer Pilots, Mechanics, the Aviator Men and Women who flew against the German and Japanese (Yes Grass Hopper, Japanese). Men and Women who for the first days of WWII, flew their own planes, using their money for fuel, maintenance, food. CAP was born. The first Air Medals of WW2 then I morph into the 911 and who we are today, the Cadet Program, Homeland Security, etc, etc. Practice it ,I  can deliver it in a 3 minute lecture, and I mean Lecture. We are Moms Apple Pie, we are the American way, We are the Civil Air Patrol.

Excuse me while I stand up and salute!    :clap:

you don't mind if I give this to my Sqdn's  PAO, do you? that's a better speech than our USAF auxiliary, 95% of inland search and rescue schpiel. That last bit might look nice on a t-shirt........

[BuckeyeDEJ]

A few weeks ago, we stopped for pizza after a mission, and some mouthy jerk said to me "What's with you guys?  Couldn't you make it in the Real Air Force?"  I loudly said:  "Sure, I was making it just fine until that last incident.  I'm still not supposed to talk about it, but it was the one involving the bottle of Wesson Oil, the general's daughter, and a duck."

Mr. Bigmouth left the restaurant while everybody was laughing.  Not only the CAP guys but ALL the customers and staff.

You owe me a keyboard, pal. 

[proveritas]

"Sure, I was making it just fine until that last incident.  I'm still not supposed to talk about it, but it was the one involving the bottle of Wesson Oil, the general's daughter, and a duck."

That one got me a dirty look from the librarian...

Bit of a thread drift here, but what's everyone's favorite line when you get those "huh?" looks? I usually mumble something like "We're a volunteer auxiliary of the Air Force..." and the official SAR pablum, but my inner salesman rebels. 

[mikeylikey]

[quoteBit of a thread drift here, but what's everyone's favorite line when you get those "huh?" looks?

Usually I say "Sorry buddy, I'm married".  OR for the ladies, "yes I am sexier than your boyfriend".   

[JohnKachenmeister]

That's my point.  We don't have to take a back seat to anybody.  We do MORE missions and MORE flying than most AF types, and I'm real sure we do more than reservists.

I think it is time we met attitude with attitude.  You crack on me and the uniform I'm wearing, stand by!  You just challenged me to a battle of wits, and you're only half prepared!

"What... do have every ribbon they issue?"

"Every one except the Good Conduct Medal!"

[flyerthom]

That's my point.  We don't have to take a back seat to anybody.  We do MORE missions and MORE flying than most AF types, and I'm real sure we do more than reservists.

I think it is time we met attitude with attitude.  You crack on me and the uniform I'm wearing, stand by!  You just challenged me to a battle of wits, and you're only half prepared!

"What... do have every ribbon they issue?"

"Every one except the Good Conduct Medal!"

I was at a wilderness medicine seminar. An instructor explained the difference between a search dog and a police dog  is; a search dog is find 'em and lick 'em, a police dog is find them and bite 'em!  Same team different roles.

CAP = find 'em and lick 'em, AF = find 'em and bomb 'em. S same team different roles.

[addo1]

  My experiences with this is that most people are, like said above, just have to look down on others to look higher themselves.  This usually happens when I might wear my uniform to school.  The first time I ever did it a while back they did just about all the above things mentioned.  I wore it last month, and I could see a big differencesince the first time. Their scorn had actually turned to respect after hearing more about what we really do.  When I am out in my uniform, it tend to get more people coming up to me and "thanking me for my service." I respond to that telling them about what we do in CAP, and as Recruiter, give them an invite to come and experience it for themselves.

[JayT]

  My experiences with this is that most people are, like said above, just have to look down on others to look higher themselves.  This usually happens when I might wear my uniform to school.  The first time I ever did it a while back they did just about all the above things mentioned.  I wore it last month, and I could see a big differencesince the first time. Their scorn had actually turned to respect after hearing more about what we really do.  When I am out in my uniform, it tend to get more people coming up to me and "thanking me for my service." I respond to that telling them about what we do in CAP, and as Recruiter, give them an invite to come and experience it for themselves.

Why were you at school in uniform?

[addo1]

  I knew this question would come up.  I DO NOT do it as a regular thing, but I do it once a year, as the Cadet Recruiter.  I had permission from my commander and from my school authorities as well.. Does that answer your question? 

[PhoenixRisen]

Was it an officially-organized recruiting event, or were you simply walking around school hoping people would question the uniform? 

If the latter - it's still not "official" and the uniform shouldn't be worn, even if a commander gives the OK.

[addo1]

  It was the first one...  We do a lot of recruiting.

[mikeylikey]

  I knew this question would come up.  I DO NOT do it as a regular thing, but I do it once a year, as the Cadet Recruiter.  I had permission from my commander and from my school authorities as well.. Does that answer your question? 

School said Ok, CAP said OK. 

Was it an officially-organized recruiting event, or were you simply walking around school hoping people would question the uniform? 

If the latter - it's still not "official" and the uniform shouldn't be worn, even if a commander gives the OK.

Sounds Official to me.

Get off his case.

[Major Carrales]

At the School where I teach  (we have a Flight of cadets that meets after school on Tuesdays and Thursdays during the school year) the Principal and School Officials have approved the CAP uniform on these days (Service Dress on Tuesdays and BDUs on Thursdays).

The participating Cadets 1) Post the Colors in the Gym in the morning, 2) provide services to the School, like help in the Library, office or attendance (after completing in class assignments and home work) and 3) display a need element of "pride" that a well worn uniform instills.

Additionally, they also (twice this last year) were given permission to walk to a neighboring elementary school and give an AE presentation to the Kinder there.

I was with them, since I work there and am driving the program (eventually hoping for a school unit)  School said OK and the SQUADRON COMMANDER said OK, it is a CAP activity that have paid in spades on numerous levels.

Got a problem with that?

[mikeylikey]

^ I have no problem at all with that.  I support things like what you detailed. 

I wish more units would get active in the schools.

[addo1]

At the School where I teach  (we have a Flight of cadets that meets after school on Tuesdays and Thursdays during the school year) the Principal and School Officials have approved the CAP uniform on these days (Service Dress on Tuesdays and BDUs on Thursdays).

The participating Cadets 1) Post the Colors in the Gym in the morning, 2) provide services to the School, like help in the Library, office or attendance (after completing in class assignments and home work) and 3) display a need element of "pride" that a well worn uniform instills.

Additionally, they also (twice this last year) were given permission to walk to a neighboring elementary school and give an AE presentation to the Kinder there.

I was with them, since I work there and am driving the program (eventually hoping for a school unit)  School said OK and the SQUADRON COMMANDER said OK, it is a CAP activity that have paid in spades on numerous levels.

Got a problem with that?

I really like that, Major.  That is a neat idea.  Yes, being the cadet recruiter, I have several cadets in my school who are in CAP.  My father is also a Lt. in CAP and is involved with the district.  I, like you mentioned, have been asked to come and do an AE presentation at the middle school next year, with the Lt., so I probably will. 

[Major Carrales]

^ I have no problem at all with that.  I support things like what you detailed. 

I wish more units would get active in the schools.

Thank you, I agree that CAP needs to be involved in Schools.  It has really paid off and offered cadets opportunities that, if otherwise, woudl have been missed in favor of more hours of "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City" or worse, the real thing.

[Major Carrales]

At the School where I teach  (we have a Flight of cadets that meets after school on Tuesdays and Thursdays during the school year) the Principal and School Officials have approved the CAP uniform on these days (Service Dress on Tuesdays and BDUs on Thursdays).

The participating Cadets 1) Post the Colors in the Gym in the morning, 2) provide services to the School, like help in the Library, office or attendance (after completing in class assignments and home work) and 3) display a need element of "pride" that a well worn uniform instills.

Additionally, they also (twice this last year) were given permission to walk to a neighboring elementary school and give an AE presentation to the Kinder there.

I was with them, since I work there and am driving the program (eventually hoping for a school unit)  School said OK and the SQUADRON COMMANDER said OK, it is a CAP activity that have paid in spades on numerous levels.

Got a problem with that?

I really like that, Major.  That is a neat idea.  Yes, being the cadet recruiter, I have several cadets in my school who are in CAP.  My father is also a Lt. in CAP and is involved with the district.  I, like you mentioned, have been asked to come and do an AE presentation at the middle school next year, with the Lt., so I probably will. 

If you had a teacher in place interested in doing CAP "of their own free time" as an after school program and then develop towards a SCHOOOL UNIT it can have great results.  I have taken it slowly, but with good result.

[PhoenixRisen]

Got a problem with that?

I guess it's the way I've been indoctrinated taught by my former squadron commander.   

Almost everything (if not everything) we ask to do it turned into non-CAP activites, and thus, uniforms can't be worn.  I said what I said because doing such has been asked numerous times (in my squadron), and it's always gotten the same response.  "It's not an official CAP activity.  No uniforms."

We've passed up a ton of outstanding recruiting events because my squadron commander didn't deem it appropriate enough to be a "CAP activity" (and there was nothing wrong with these places in which we'd ask to recruit - most of which included schools).

Sorry if I came across with an attitude (or anything else), I was simply expressing what I was indoctrinated taught.

[mikeylikey]

^ Ya.....your SQD Commander obviously feels that your SQD already has enough members.   

Ask him or her to show you what regulations say you can't wear your uniform to recruiting events.  Also look at the beginning of 39-1, Schools are not listed as prohibited places where you should not wear your uniform.

[Major Carrales]

Got a problem with that?

I guess it's the way I've been indoctrinated taught by my former squadron commander.   

Almost everything (if not everything) we ask to do it turned into non-CAP activites, and thus, uniforms can't be worn.  I said what I said because doing such has been asked numerous times (in my squadron), and it's always gotten the same response.  "It's not an official CAP activity.  No uniforms."

We've passed up a ton of outstanding recruiting events because my squadron commander didn't deem it appropriate enough to be a "CAP activity" (and there was nothing wrong with these places in which we'd ask to recruit - most of which included schools).

Sorry if I came across with an attitude (or anything else), I was simply expressing what I was indoctrinated taught.

No problem.  The thing is the Squadron Command varies.  I believe in a very "open" form of CAP.  I call it the "WHOLE CAP" Approach.  An approach where we embrace the ideals, Missions and Core Values of CAP and move them into the realm of the community.  Your former commander must hold an opposite view.

We are the Communities we Serve and those Communities are us.  All CAP is LOCAL.  I believe you have to be there at activities "as CAP" in order for the community to know what it, CAP, is.

This has been our major problem, the idea that CAP is some sort "of secret."

Fact is our Avition Branches (whatever you choose to call them) should strive to be the nucleus of the local General Aviation community, holding and fostering activities that benefit all the area aviators.  The Cadet Program should be one of service to "Community, State and Nation" as the oath says, working with Scouts and JROTC (not against it, in rivalry with or in a vacuum from) and free from that ever so evident "inferiority complex" that keeps us cowering the the shadows instead of illumanating the value of CAP to our communities.

Your recruiting has to be "visible."  Uniforms have that fact.  That is why there are many "Squadron Approved" functions where permission is asked for and given, some times even from higher levels, for these activities to show "CAP as CAP at its best."

Now, that is my vision for command in my sphere of influence.  Others may disagree, however a well regulated use of the CAP uniform does not mean we never wear it for "CAP activities," it means that we do so with pride, honor and the diginity that comes with the proper ware of said uniform.

[PhoenixRisen]

^ Ya.....your SQD Commander obviously feels that your SQD already has enough members.   

Ask him or her to show you what regulations say you can't wear your uniform to recruiting events.  Also look at the beginning of 39-1, Schools are not listed as prohibited places where you should not wear your uniform.

Many a person has tried (including parents).  This is one of the reasons why I got the idea to set-up a new squadron.  I can happily say that I know for a fact I won't have these problems with my school squadron.

My commander (also my teacher) wants us to be the most visible thing in the city.  He's more hyped about the squadron than I am (and I didn't think that was possible).  He jumps at the idea of any activity, be it an activity that gives Cadets a learning opportunity, a recruiting opportunity or it just plain fun.  (And our squadron's not even official, yet!)

Like it was said previously - I guess it depends on the specific commander's approach on the subject.

[Major Carrales]

My commander (also my teacher) wants us to be the most visible thing in the city.  He's more hyped about the squadron than I am (and I didn't think that was possible).  He jumps at the idea of any activity, be it an activity that gives Cadets a learning opportunity, a recruiting opportunity or it just plain fun.  (And our squadron's not even official, yet!)

Like it was said previously - I guess it depends on the specific commander's approach on the subject.

Marching in "squares and circles" only goes so far as part of service to "Community, State and Nation."  Yes, Drill and other "pure cadet" stuff does loads in teaching Cadets how to lead and follow; however we have got to, and I mean GOT TO, help cadets grow by giving them opportunities to use those lesson and apply what they have learned.  If not, the "LEADERSHIP" is empty rethoric. 

I believe that, when given a well regulated supervised chance, at all cadets should be given a leadership.  We should be giving them the opportunity to grow as citizens via service as citizens.

[PhoenixRisen]

Marching in "squares and circles" only goes so far as part of service to "Community, State and Nation."

And this is exactly one of the complaints I hear a good amount of the time (and one of the reasons why most of our Cadets leave after a year or so).  I'll tell ya, though - it's not only the recruiting events that we've asked for that were shot down.  We've talked to (and even organized) a good amount of events, but they never make it farther than the squadron commander.  (Mind you, these were reasonabe events for which we had the resources and the people, which is why I'm constantly curious as to why they never get approval.)

[Major Carrales]

Marching in "squares and circles" only goes so far as part of service to "Community, State and Nation."

And this is exactly one of the complaints I hear a good amount of the time (and one of the reasons why most of our Cadets leave after a year or so).  I'll tell ya, though - it's not only the recruiting events that we've asked for that were shot down.  We've talked to (and even organized) a good amount of events, but they never make it farther than the squadron commander.  (Mind you, these were reasonabe events for which we had the resources and the people, which is why I'm constantly curious as to why they never get approval.)

I'm trying to look into why you commander would behave in such a way.

Most of the time those sorts of events are kaboshed because of lack of personnel.  There needs to be significant CAP Officer supervision...many time not just one CAP Officer. Some commanders see these events as "ho-hum, more stuff for me to do."  This is when the improtance of a set of staff officers is important.  Takes the  edge off of Command.

Have a project officer assigned that can lead up the effort.

[addo1]

Marching in "squares and circles" only goes so far as part of service to "Community, State and Nation."

And this is exactly one of the complaints I hear a good amount of the time (and one of the reasons why most of our Cadets leave after a year or so).  I'll tell ya, though - it's not only the recruiting events that we've asked for that were shot down.  We've talked to (and even organized) a good amount of events, but they never make it farther than the squadron commander.  (Mind you, these were reasonable events for which we had the resources and the people, which is why I'm constantly curious as to why they never get approval.)

  I understand you there... I, as recruiter, have had a lot of events we could have stuff at, but they never turn out.. Sort of disappointing.

[proveritas]

Well, you have to try to look at it from the adults' position too. If they see recruiting drives as just a way to get more "kids", they just may not be interested if they aren't directly involved with the cadet program. Are your recruiting efforts directed mainly toward potenial cadets or both cadets and seniors?

[addo1]

Well, you have to try to look at it from the adults' position too. If they see recruiting drives as just a way to get more "kids", they just may not be interested if they aren't directly involved with the cadet program. Are your recruiting efforts directed mainly toward potenial cadets or both cadets and seniors?

I recruit both.  They both are needed to have a succesfull squadron. 

Well, you have to try to look at it from the adults' position too. If they see recruiting drives as just a way to get more "kids", they just may not be interested if they aren't directly involved with the cadet program. Are your recruiting efforts directed mainly toward potenial cadets or both cadets and seniors?

  Also, Major is a adult as well, lol... 

[Major Carrales]

Well, you have to try to look at it from the adults' position too. If they see recruiting drives as just a way to get more "kids", they just may not be interested if they aren't directly involved with the cadet program. Are your recruiting efforts directed mainly toward potenial cadets or both cadets and seniors?

My recruiting efforts are gears to those that wish to serve CAP as CAP Officer and Cadets.  Being that ours is a Composite Squadron we cherish both.

[proveritas]

Also, Major is a adult as well, lol... 

Reading usernames might be a good idea before posting. 

Other than staff shortage, why would a cmdr keep shooting down recruiting ideas?  I'm not asking about YOUR squadron specifically, just in a general sense, but provided you had the staff, it seems a no-brainer to go out and sell your squadron.

[jimmydeanno]

^Doesn't sound like that problem will be fixed soon.

"Ladies and Gentlemen, we have just been offered a chance to do some recruiting.  However, we don't have enough people so I declined the offer."

Sometimes you need to put things on the back burner to fill some seats.

[LtCol Hooligan]

I know as a commander, I am trying to get my members to put a strategy behind recruiting.  Recently I have seen a lot of shoot by the hip recruiting drives with creative ways to bring in new members.  I almost never tell the members no, don't do that, but I am trying to tell them to develop a strategy around recruiting so it returns the most bang for the buck.  Perhaps your commander wants to see a strategy as well so there are not a bunch of one off recruiting events that burn people out when it's time for the big one.  It might be worth forming a committee to look at all the recruiting options over the next 6 months or year and put a strategy behind the effort.  If it was me, I would start with a list of all the activities and then list pros and cons about each one.  Rank them in order of which ones come first and turn your proposal in.  I also like the idea of having a project officer assigned to each event.  I believe this should be a cadet and an officer so both sides of the camp have a stake in the recruiting activities you choose.  Just my 2 cents.

[♠SARKID♠]

^Doesn't sound like that problem will be fixed soon.

"Ladies and Gentlemen, we have just been offered a chance to do some recruiting.  However, we don't have enough people so I declined the offer."

Sometimes you need to put things on the back burner to fill some seats.

Sounds like a Catch-22 if I ever heard one

[proveritas]

^ Yeah. But how many people does it really take to set up *a* table at an event and stand there handing out promo stuff and talking to people?

[MIKE]

Drifiting...

[a2capt]

...well, the opposite happened to me a couple weeks ago. Usually it's snide remarks about Boy Scouts or such, but in one case, a sentry thanked us for the service we give to the youth, upon letting us pass, entering on base.

Totally unexpected.

[gistek]

I've run into a lot of uninformed and misinformed people.

Here are some of my stock responses:

"...Fake Military"
As I pinch myself I say, "Nope, I'm real. And CAP is the Civilian Auxilliary of the U.S. Airforce." Then I hand them my CAP business card. (Actually it has my CAP info on one side and my work info on the other.)

"Boy Scouts in the Air"
"That's just one of the activities our Venture Scout unit gets to do."

"What's the difference between CAP and the Boy Scouts?"
"For the Boy Scouts, 'Be Prepared' is a motto. For CAP Emergency Services, it's a lifestyle."
This usually results in a question about what emergency services we do.

"Doesn't the Air Force do the search and rescue missions?"
"Yeah. Right. I can see it now." /Hand motion of a fast moving jet about shoulder level/ "Air Force Jet 'You see anything down there, Joe?' 'Nope, I don't see anything, Harry' Cap Single Engine Cessna," /hand motion of a slow moving plane with "put put" noises/ "'Hey Charlie, whats that down their?' 'Looks like a washing machine.'" (maybe some time I'll film this one and put it on YouTube)

"Just what does CAP do?"
"Got an hour?"
or
"Besides giving teens a sense of confidence, respect and responsibility?"
or
"You wouldn't beleive me," I hand 'em a business card, "But come on out to a meeting and talk with a few of our members."
or my favorite
"Well, I've seen a CAP unit change a 12-year-old, loud-mouthed practical joker into a responsible and respectful leader in less than two years."


On recruiting.

I find that parents are often the deciding factor for their child's participation. When that happens (and sometimes even before it comes up) I tell them that, "Unlike Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, not all adult CAP members are in leadership positions." Then I mention some of our unit's specific needs.

One cadet really didn't want his mom to join until I pointed out to him that we had a lot of jobs available where they wouldn't be working together, and it really wasn't fair to ask her to sit around with nothingto do. (They lived far enough away that it wan't worth driving home during a meeting.)

[md132]

Never had a problem with anyone here.  If I have to be on base in uniform I always get saluted by any enlisted, including the CSM of the base, which is rare.  If I'm off base I get people thanking me for my service.  Where I'm at they are extremely military friendly.

[a2capt]

We've passed up a ton of outstanding recruiting events because my squadron commander didn't deem it appropriate enough to be a "CAP activity" (and there was nothing wrong with these places in which we'd ask to recruit - most of which included schools).

Thats an interesting viewpoint .. but there's a flipside to that too.

Air show after air show .. and weekend after weekend .. some of these activities that may just seem like a simple event are far from it. Very far from it, and I'm pretty sure that most cadets have not realized this yet, at just how much time that unit CC gives to make that unit function.

Think about it, most CC's step up to the plate to keep it going because the previous one suddenly had to move on, in the way of employment, the W.A.R. Dept, Chief of Staff, etc..

It's really easy to get upset the way people treat 'us' too, from even inside the organization.

This isn't the volunteer fire dept., it may be similar, but if they would look at it a little different.. everything you do is less they have to do, even if it's a little bit. 10 people doing each a little bit in the end is a a lot someone else doesn't have to do..

Likewise, when the CC's says yes to every single event and finds themselves towing the slack most if not all the time, they tend to figure out that saying yes isn't always beneficial ..