Should Senior Members Enourage or Discourage Cadets from Entering Military?

[RADIOMAN015]

I'm not being judgemental on this, but should units allow military recruiters to make informational presentation to our cadets at a normal squadron scheduled meeting about their particular branch of the service

Is our CAP cadet program slanted more to the military as a career choice, versus the cadets continuing their education after high school to study aero/aerospace or other high tech related subjects    

As senior members should we be encouraging cadets to go into the military, especially since (in some circles of opinion) the  Afghanistan war has the potential of turning into another Viet Nam for our country?    OR should we be emphasizing for the cadets to go on to higher education (at least a two year college/technical school) before making that decision to enter the military?  OR should we be at least encouraging them to enter the military only if they can get certain career fields that have limited 'front line" battle potential

Is the poor economy resulting in many more of our cadets entering the military, because they can't get a job out of high school; and/or don't have the funds to attend college (since their parents have lost their jobs)
RM

[Eclipse]

As senior members should we be encouraging cadets to go into the military, especially since (in some circles of opinion) the  Afghanistan war has the potential of turning into another Viet Nam for our country? 

That sentence is the reason we should stay out of it in from the encouragement / discouragement aspect.  That is your opinion, to which you have a right, but it should not be included in the conversation with our cadets.

Our program, by its very nature, encourages military, public, and community service.  There's no reason we should be not allowing recruiters to come to meetings, etc., but beyond presenting factual information based on personal experience, including the "other side" of anything we say, making the case either way is dangerous.

[rjfoxx]

I think that the Cadets should offerred the choice of recruiters coming to unit meeting or not.  Senior members; especially those with prior military experience must be available to honestly answer questions about military service. Let the Cadets make up their own minds if military service is the correct route for them to follow.  My unit is a Cadet Squadron and many cadets have openly indicated their intention to enter the military; some right out of high school, others say that the will go to college first.  One of our cadets entered the AFA this fall.  She is the third from this squadron to be accepted to the AFA in the past 6 years.  Two other cadets will be applying to the Academys this year.

[RiverAux]

Of course we should allow recruiters to make presentations if they would like to come.  I'd say that the vast majority of cadets are interested in joining the military anyway. 

Although getting recruits is not an explicit goal of the CAP program, anyone that thinks that the AF supports it because they want to get kids interested in flying for Delta is very naive just as they would be naive to think that the AF supports AFRJOTC because it encouarges good citizenship. 

[Eclipse]

I think "interested" is the key word here. 

Allowing a young person to experience a taste of a paramilitary environment to find that its not for them is at least as important as encouraging them to join.

No military is better is far better on your permanent record than a dishonorable discharge.

[Hawk200]

I think we should encourage cadets to do whatever it is they want to do, as long as it's legal. If a cadet wants to be a drug dealer or gangbanger, then we should be actively discouraging that avenue.

I've had more than a few cadets that didn't have any interest in joining. I also made it a point of telling all the cadets that there is nothing wrong with that in any way, shape, or form.

Service in the military is not the be-all, end-all of supporting our country. Being a true patriot goes just as far.

I think actively discouraging military service due to your own political views is wrong. Show them the respect of a person and let them them make up their own minds. Answer any questions they have honestly, and if you don't know, tell them you don't know. Don't slant things because you disagree with the administrations' agenda.

[hatentx]

It is not hidden in my SQD that I am military.  I am comming in my Army Uniform to change or I have left meetings after changing to work the night shift.  The best thing I do with the cadets I feel is to be honest.  I tell them why I chose to join and what me experiance of that has been.  Some have talked to the recruiter and then come back and ask me how much of it is BS.  While I dont think our organisastion should seek out the recruiters to come and spend time with the cadet if they come to us and ask I see no issue.  They may not be a bad person to have in your back pocket when we need help with things either.  Recruiters have a lot of pull and  will do and get things if it gives them the opportunity to get thier numbers for the month. 

For those of you that have not served then I think your view is just as important to share as well. 

[Major Carrales]

My standard line is that Civil Air Patrol is about developing good citizens dedicated to service.  We are not a "funnel" into the military, however, all we will help and provide opportunities to those that want to go that way.

For some, due to health or other limitations, CAP will be their form of "service" to Community, State and Nation.

Thus, my role is to provide them with the best possible CAP Cadet experience that helps develop them in the areas of leadership, moral leadership, community service, Aerospace education and promote a degree of physical fitness.

[Short Field]

should units allow military recruiters to make informational presentation to our cadets at a normal squadron scheduled meeting about their particular branch of the service

Any organization which does not allow military recruiters to make presentations should be barred from receiving federal funds.  JMHO.

[Flying Pig]

I would allow any respectable professional career to make a presentation to my cadets as long as it fit into the schedule on a case by case basis.  I think however that the military is a natural partner.  I encourage cadets to explore the military and what it has to offer, but I also tell parents or prospective cadets that CAP offers leadership and character building skills regardless of what career path they choose.

[wuzafuzz]

should units allow military recruiters to make informational presentation to our cadets at a normal squadron scheduled meeting about their particular branch of the service

Any organization which does not allow military recruiters to make presentations should be barred from receiving federal funds.  JMHO.

That could get sticky.  Both my sons did Army JROTC and the Army Instructors prohibit recruiters from the JROTC classroom. 

Both instructors encourage contact with recruiters through the career center.  Obviously the retired First Sergeant and Colonel are not anti-military.  Plenty of their cadets do enter the military (including my oldest son, a brand new Marine).  Both instructors insist on "recruiter debrief" conversations with their cadets.

[lordmonar]

I think as the the Offical Auxilary to the USAF.......it would be kind of strange if we discouraged anyone from joing the organisation we are an axillary of!

[Eclipse]

should units allow military recruiters to make informational presentation to our cadets at a normal squadron scheduled meeting about their particular branch of the service

Any organization which does not allow military recruiters to make presentations should be barred from receiving federal funds.  JMHO.

Good luck these days with just about any school...

[LtCol057]

I know that in my squadron, we encourage the cadets to make their own decision.  The military isn't for everyone, and CAP isn't for everyone.  We tell them and the  parents that come to our meetings that we do NOT recruit for the military, and that membership in CAP does not require them to enter the military.  But it does give them a limited insight into if the military is a possibility for them. I think everyone should make an informed decision that works for themselves.

If a recruiter wants to come talk to the cadets, I don't have a problem with it, as long as we can work it into the schedule. But I won't say that one recruiter can, and the others can't.  If one comes, then all will be welcomed.

[SarDragon]

I think recruiter visits should be geared simply to offer career choices, and to neither specifically encourage nor discourage joining the military.

[Major Carrales]

I believe in being straight forward and honest with Cadets about as mush as possible.  One thing in particular about the military...it is as much a lifestyle choice as it is a career one.  That one will be called to defend their nation when the time comes.

The military services should not be looked at exclusively as technical training, college financial aid or any other such thing.  It is a service where on may very well have to lay down their life in defense of their nation divorced from their personal views.

Many a classmate of mine from both High School and College were determined to have Uncle Sam pay for their schooling...serve a few years in Hawaii or Germany, then simply forget.  That, however, was 1994-1996.

When 2001 and 2003 came around, the number of annoyed "Financial Aid Soildiers" complained that they were being activated for service in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan.  I was quick to point out to them that their choice of military service was one of service and not "free money" via ROTC or GI Bill.

We have got to instill in those in CAP as Cadets that wish military service be given the fairest, most honest and least romanticized version of what that service means. 

I will never simply "funnel" cadets into the military...not for any agendistic purpose, but because we owe those cadets the truth.  And, contrary to Jack Nicholson's quote, the can handle it.

[Airrace]

I think we should provide the information but let them decide. No encouragement!

[flyguy06]

I absolutely encourage my cadets to go into military service.........but, I encourage them to go to college if they can and become officers. SOmeof my cadets will not go to college but I still encourage them to pursue what ever careers they have an interets in. I do push the military and I push aviation.

[DC]

I would certainly support any cadet that made an informed decision to join the military, but I don't think military service, or any other career field for that matter, should be actively encouraged or discouraged in CAP.

[Short Field]

If a high school kid had a plan for their future, then by all means support it.  However, I have seen far too many that didn't have a plan and four years after high school, they are scraping by going from one low-level job to another.  There is a lot to gain by serving a tour in the military.  It provides a "safe" and structured environment to mature and determine what you want to do with your life - and provides you the tools to achieve it.

Yea, there is a war going on but graveyards are full of 18-24 year olds who never went in the military.

[Major Carrales]

I would certainly support any cadet that made an informed decision to join the military, but I don't think military service, or any other career field for that matter, should be actively encouraged or discouraged in CAP.

I try to "find their grain" as to what they would like to do in life and open opportunities for them based on those finding using the unit as a medium.  Thus, if a Cadet wants to be a police officer, I solicit the help of local law enforcement to come in and make a presentation for their benefit.

The result is that the whole unit benefits from the exposure to the career and the one cadet originally targeted gets a good experience to see what his would-be field is all about.

[RiverAux]

I would certainly support any cadet that made an informed decision to join the military, but I don't think military service, or any other career field for that matter, should be actively encouraged or discouraged in CAP.

I'm wondering how we're supposed to conduct the CAP program in a manner such as that considering that one of our primary duties is to get them interested in aerospace while wearing a military uniform every week....

[AirAux]

I am having a hard believing what I am reading.  I believe everyone "owes" this country 2-6 years of service.  This may be military or civil, but everyone owes something.  Our program is "pro" military anyway you call it.  We are not the boy scouts or girl scouts.  The Air Force provides a great deal of our money and support.  There is an old saying that you should dance with the one that brung ya!  We spend half of our time arguing about throwing out members that don't meet military standards and can't wear the AF uniform.  We should "proudly" support the military.  Get over the political correctness.  Look at our heritage.  Encourage recruiters to attend your meetings.  Be proud of our military.. 

[Hawk200]

I believe everyone "owes" this country 2-6 years of service. 

I don't. And there are people I have served with that really shouldn't be wearing a uniform. Military service requires a certain dedication, and not everyone is as dedicated as they should be.

I believe that military service is more of a calling than something that someone owes.

[Major Carrales]

I am having a hard believing what I am reading.  I believe everyone "owes" this country 2-6 years of service.  This may be military or civil, but everyone owes something.  Our program is "pro" military anyway you call it.  We are not the boy scouts or girl scouts.  The Air Force provides a great deal of our money and support.  There is an old saying that you should dance with the one that brung ya!  We spend half of our time arguing about throwing out members that don't meet military standards and can't wear the AF uniform.  We should "proudly" support the military.  Get over the political correctness.  Look at our heritage.  Encourage recruiters to attend your meetings.  Be proud of our military..

Who's saying anything "anti-military" in any of the above.  The fact is that informed volunteers are the backbone and strength of our Military.   Having a Civil Air Patrol that promotes good citizenship, informed choice and service does a far greater service to the USAF than one that funnels what might be called "automatons" into the military.

That is what is being said above...that the keystone of any strong national defense is the creation of citizens willing to take up arms to defend their way of life.   That is also a lesson that we can learn from those that took up arms at Lexington and Concord in 1774. 

Today there is too much, so much, apathy and ignorance among our youth and young adult populace that simple citizenship issues and lessons are dismissed as "hokum."  What CAP teaches is real...serve your "Community, State and Nation" as best you can.

[SarDragon]

I believe everyone "owes" this country 2-6 years of service. 

I don't. And there are people I have served with that really shouldn't be wearing a uniform. Military service requires a certain dedication, and not everyone is as dedicated as they should be.

I believe that military service is more of a calling than something that someone owes.

+1000

I joined the Navy in 1969, as a draft-induced enlistment. At least 15% of the folks I served with had no business in the military, because of similar circumstances. I certainly wasn't a poster boy for the Navy, but I did my job, stayed out of trouble, and advanced in grade until I peaked at E-6.

The number of discipline problems went down dramatically after the last of the problematic  draft-induced enlistees finally left the Navy around 1975 or so.

It is encouraging that we are handling the current war situation with an all-volunteer force.

[billford1]

I was at a get together where there were some teenagers who were talking about joining the Military. They talked about what the recruiter had told them. I suggested that they take plenty of time to think about it, and that they should also talk to people who had served in the Military and get their perspective about Military life.

[AirAux]

I said military or civilian service.  If one isn't fit to be in the military there are still civilian service opportunities.  This country isn't here to serve us, we are here to serve our country.  Several of the above messages say in essence that we shouldn't "encourage" enlistment or military service.  Even a Democrat like Kennedy said "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."  Part of our problem today is the entitlement mentality of our younger generations.  Part of our job is to instill a sense of obligation and of true "Citizenship".  I am having a problem with any of our CAP leaders that are not pro America or pro military to the extent that they would not encourage recruiter participation in our program..

[RiverAux]

I am fully confident that if you find a squadron commander who refuses to allow a recruiter to give a presentation (in general, not just because the schedule was full on some particular night), that you will soon be looking at a former squadron commander. 

[flyguy06]

I said military or civilian service.  If one isn't fit to be in the military there are still civilian service opportunities.  This country isn't here to serve us, we are here to serve our country.  Several of the above messages say in essence that we shouldn't "encourage" enlistment or military service.  Even a Democrat like Kennedy said "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."  Part of our problem today is the entitlement mentality of our younger generations.  Part of our job is to instill a sense of obligation and of true "Citizenship".  I am having a problem with any of our CAP leaders that are not pro America or pro military to the extent that they would not encourage recruiter participation in our program.

You say that as if to say the "narmal" Democrat is against thi philosophy. I love it when people that make those kinds of statements. Then I tell them that I am a card carrrying life time Democrat who has served his nation for 20 years. Most of that as a ground combat soldier, not some poag in the rear. Their mouths get closed at that point.

My best friend has never served inthe military. he has taught high school for 15 years. i believe he is seving his nation greatly. He molds the future of our nation. You dont have to be in the military to serve, everyone is not cut out to be in the military.

I am not old enought to have participated in Vietnam but as a current military member I wouldnt want someone fighting next to me that didnt want to be there.

I do agree with you that a lot of young people have a entitlement attitude. But idont think military service is a way to combat that.

[AirAux]

Flyguy, I believe it is common knowledge that in general Republicans support the military and that Democrats are less supportive usually.  During the times that Republicans are in power, the military gets more support and money and during times that Deocrats are in power, the military receives less support.  This isn't a slam at Democrats, it is what it is.  It is a political point of view that arises from the past actions pf the Democratic party.  And again, I stress that there is civilian service one can do if they aren't fit fot military duty.  As for the draft, if one were to study the situation, the draft brought educated, privileged people into the Army that would never have volunteered.  This exposed congressmen's sons to harm and in a small way leveled the risk among all Americans instead of the poor and uneducated.  If someone was drafted that was not fit for military duty, they had the distinct possibility of being discharged.  Believe it or not, but some of those draftees brought a lot of talent and served their country honorably.  The draft was not of itself a bad thing.  The way Viet Nam was handled by the politicians was a terrible thing.  As to your reference about your friend teaching, that is a very good thing, but does not equate to military service in my book.  JMHO..

[Major Carrales]

Flyguy, I believe it is common knowledge that in general Republicans support the military and that Democrats are less supportive usually.  During the times that Republicans are in power, the military gets more support and money and during times that Deocrats are in power, the military receives less support.  This isn't a slam at Democrats, it is what it is.  It is a political point of view that arises from the past actions pf the Democratic party.  And again, I stress that there is civilian service one can do if they aren't fit fot military duty.  As for the draft, if one were to study the situation, the draft brought educated, privileged people into the Army that would never have volunteered.  This exposed congressmen's sons to harm and in a small way leveled the risk among all Americans instead of the poor and uneducated.  If someone was drafted that was not fit for military duty, they had the distinct possibility of being discharged.  Believe it or not, but some of those draftees brought a lot of talent and served their country honorably.  The draft was not of itself a bad thing.  The way Viet Nam was handled by the politicians was a terrible thing.  As to your reference about your friend teaching, that is a very good thing, but does not equate to military service in my book.  JMHO..

Let's keep the DEMS and REPS out of the conversation.  I am often tempted to, when I see "D's" and "R's" next to people's name, imagine that the "D" and "R" Stands for "doing right," as in the "right and proper things to do."

Any other interpretation on this forum skirts on violating the Terms of Service.

[flyguy06]

You are right Major. i think its unfotunant that you cant even have a hint of mention of Dems or Repubs witout fear of being locked. But its not my site.

Air Aux, thats a stereotype that repubs support the military mre than dems. Ans I will leave it at that.

Again you have a right to your opinion about what is more honorbale to serve and what is not. But let me tell you something. Not to knock on my fellow service members but I was an Infantryman and my experience in Iraq was totally differnt than the supply folks and the food service folks.

Dont judge a person just becaue he or she weas a uniform. The military is jut as full of a variety of people as the civilian world. Everyone that dons a uniform isnt worthy of honor,

What makes military service so much more honorable? heck, half the people I went to war withwere thee to get money for college. they didnt have this all out desire to swrve their country. They wanted to get paid.

teaching is a very honorable profession as is public safety and anything dealing with helping and serving others. People want to put military folks onthis shelf. If they only knew the truth. I wish you guys could listen to a conversation in the barracks on a Friday night sometime. It would surprise you.

[davedove]

I see nothing wrong with allowing recruiters to speak to the cadets.  Military service is a valid option for them and they should be allowed to hear of it.

Now, military service is not for everyone.  It should be neither encouraged or disgouraged by the senior members.  The cadets should be free to make their own informed choices.  This is where senior members with military service can prove invaluable by giving the cadets an HONEST view of their experiences.  There are too many stories of both glory and fear out there; what the cadets need are honest facts.

[jimmydeanno]

I don't think it's my job in CAP to encourage or discourage a cadet from doing what they want to do.  I do think that it is my job to help them get where they want to go though.

I think that the CAP Cadet Program, by its nature, attracts kids that are interested in the military and military lifestyle.  It also attracts parents that are interested in trying to get their children into a structured program that can help instill discipline and good morals.

Our program does a lot of things that are "pro-military" but not everything.  We do tours of military facilities, talk to military members, fly in military aircraft.  Heck, we even meet on a military base.  All things that attract people interested in the military.

Does that mean that I schedule a recruiting appointment with every cadet that comes through the door?  Absolutely not.  Does that mean that I have the Air Guard recruiter standing outside our doorway at every meeting handing out flyers?  No.

In fact, despite being on a military base, we have not had a single recruiter come to our meeting.  However, I would say that 90% of the cadets that left our unit in the last 3 years have joined the military in some form or another - whether that be active duty enlisted, military academy, ROTC or traditional Guardsman.

I have a cadet in my unit who joined when she was 13.  She had her mind set on going to the Air Force Academy.  She gets outstanding grades in school (3rd in her class of 600), speaks latin, feeds the homeless, has tons of community service awards and recently earned her Earhart. 

She's a Senior now and is not going to the Air Force Academy.  She's decided that AFROTC is the route she wants to take.  She arrived at this decision through some conversations with my wife and I, talking to the AFROTC detachment commander and by attending a week long seminar/intro at the Air Force Academy.  She realized that it wasn't what she wanted for her college experience.  I didn't guide her to the ROTC decision, just provided her with some information that she asked for.

I have another [former] cadet who was facing some tough decisions coming out of High School because of a tough family situation.  He was going to graduate, move into an apartment with 6 of his friends and work at Chick-fil-A.  Good kid, tough situation.

His mother asked me to "intervene" and talk to him about some other options he had.  I started talking to him about going to a local community college, etc.  He didn't want to.  Eventually, he asked if I knew anything about what the Air Force had to offer.  So, it lead into a discussion about joining the Air Force as an enlisted person.  Heck, I even went with him to the recruiter (he asked me to).  Now, he's a comm troop stationed in Korea.  He told me that joining the Air Force was the best decision he had ever made - thanking me for helping him find his way.

I also have a cadet who applied to a fairly prestigious school who is pursuing an Aerospace Engineering Degree.  He has no interest in joining the military at all.  He is just fascinated with Aerospace. 

So, while we have plenty of cadets who choose to join the military on their own, we probably have just as many deciding not to.  That isn't a bad thing. I will continue to write letters of recommendation for my cadets who want to go to college, or want to get a job somewhere - because it is what they want to do, not what I want them to do.

My role is to help them along their path, not choose it for them.

[RiverAux]

In fact, despite being on a military base, we have not had a single recruiter come to our meeting. 

Although my unit isn't on a base, it is in a fairly good sized city with recruiters from every service, and with the exception of the local AF Academy recruiter, I don't recall any of them ever asking to come to the squadron, though since I'm not terribly well linked in with our cadet program, I could have missed some visits over the years. 

I wonder why that is?  A CAP squadron is generally going to be a very receptive audience to their message.  Is it that the other services assume that CAP cadets won't be interested in anything but the Air Force?  Is it that they assume the CAP cadets are probably going to be more focused on going on to college and going in through ROTC or one of the Academies? 

I think they would be very wrong to make those assumptions.  I'd say a good proportion of CAP cadets that enter the military, do so as enlisted and many choose other services. 

[jimmydeanno]

I wonder why that is?  A CAP squadron is generally going to be a very receptive audience to their message.  Is it that the other services assume that CAP cadets won't be interested in anything but the Air Force?  Is it that they assume the CAP cadets are probably going to be more focused on going on to college and going in through ROTC or one of the Academies? 

I think they would be very wrong to make those assumptions.  I'd say a good proportion of CAP cadets that enter the military, do so as enlisted and many choose other services.

In our case, we just haven't done an invite.  We have recruiting materials and business cards available at our sign-in desk for those interested, but we don't push it.

I'm not an expert on military recruiting, but it seems that if I were one, I'd be going to the places that I wasn't already getting people from - increasing my area of influence.

A CAP cadet squadron already has kids that are interested (and most definitely) going to join the military in some way or another.  If you know that next year you're going to have 4-5 of those cadets walk through your doors whether you go and talk to them or not, would you put the effort in?

The other branches get their share of our cadets as well.  Last year we had one cadet go to West Point and two others join the Army enlisted.  We had 1 cadet go to the USAFA and 1 join the Air Force enlisted.  Currently, we have 3 younger cadets who want to join the Marines and two who are interested in the Navy.

I could be way off base, but were I recruiting, I wouldn't "waste my time" with the sure things.

[EMT-83]

Don't recruiters have numbers to meet? Quota probably isn't right term.

I'd think that a sure thing would be a good thing.

[Rotorhead]

I am having a problem with any of our CAP leaders that are not pro America or pro military to the extent that they would not encourage recruiter participation in our program..

I am having a problem with people who say that those who don't think everyone belongs in military service are somehow"not pro-America."

[AirAux]

And I have problems with people who believe they can be pro-America and not support our military.  I didn't say everyone belonged in the military.  I said recruiter participation should be encouraged.  If you read the whole series, you would see that I feel there should be some government service required of our young people for the privilege of living in this great country.  That could consist of military or civilian service.  Why would one join CAP if one was not pro-military?  We are the auxilary of the Air Force.  We are not the Salvation Army, Peace Corps, or Boy Scouts.  We wear uniforms, we take oaths, we use military courtesies, we have military structure, we have military rank.  This should be a no brainer.  It's no wonder the Air Force doesn't know what to do with us.  We don't even know who or what we are ourselves. 

[jimmydeanno]

I am having a hard believing what I am reading.  I believe everyone "owes" this country 2-6 years of service.  This may be military or civil, but everyone owes something.

Where is it written in the Constitution, in what article or section is it contained, that you may take children from their parents, and parents from their children, and compel them to fight the battles of any war, in which the folly or the wickedness of Government may engage it?"

Said during the war of 1812, a war which was fought and won without the use of a single conscript.

And to quote Ayn Rand,

"Of all the statist violations of individual rights in a mixed economy, the military draft is the worst. It is an abrogation of rights. It negates man's fundamental right--the right to life--and establishes the fundamental principle of statism: that a man's life belongs to the state, and the state may claim it by compelling him to sacrifice it in battle. If the state may force a man to risk death or hideous maiming and crippling, in a war declared at the state's discretion, for a cause he may neither approve of nor even understand, if his consent is not required to send him into unspeakable martyrdom--then, in principle, all rights are negated in that state, and its government is not man's protector any longer. What is there left to protect?"

The same can be said about obligatory civil service.

[Ned]

Don't recruiters have numbers to meet? Quota probably isn't right term.

Recruiters are under a lot of pressure to meet their productivity goals, usually expressed as their "mission".  (E.g., "My mission is two enlistments a month.")

Which is a bit of a problem from the CAP squadron perspective.  Our median age for cadets is below what recruiters are interested in.  Due to pressure to produce, recruiters have a very short range focus - who can I enlist this month? - or at least while I am on this tour?.  A 15 year old CAP cadet can't even sign papers until they are 17, and by then the individual recruiter will have moved on.

So talking to CAP units is usually not very high on their priority list.  Some will do it, or course, but most recuriters feel like they are up to their tails in alligators meeting their current mission and feel like talking to "non-productive" groups takes time away from meeting mission.

I think it is always appropriate to have senior ROTC/Academy folks come out since it serves the double purpose of encouraging college and exposing cadets to options concerning an officer career.

[Rotorhead]

And I have problems with people who believe they can be pro-America and not support our military.

Well, then it is lucky that I am not one of those people.

[Hawk200]

...you would see that I feel there should be some government service required of our young people for the privilege of living in this great country.  That could consist of military or civilian service. 

Service to the country can start and remain in the local community. One doesn't have to be a Federal employee or military member to be serving the public. I think the example of a person being a teacher is an excellent one. That's building the next generation of our citizens.

A paramedic is serving every one of the folks he saves. A LEO is protecting the public. So is a firefighter. Doctors are contributing to the health of the public. There are companies that make a point of bringing jobs into communities and providing useful products to those communities. As long as they're not doing it to "just make a buck", they're working for that community.

It is impossible for everyone to work military or government service. The simple numbers don't allow for it. Budgets don't allow for it. It's just not doable.

AirAux, I've looked back at all the posts you've made, and I really haven't seen anything to show military or government service. What is the nature of your government service?

[AirAux]

For what it's worth, I am prior service active duty Army,  My Dad was Career Air Force, My oldest was Army Reserve/National Guard, my second oldest was AFA graduate and I have over 30 in CAP.  When I said military or civilian service, I didn't necessarily mean government service, although I do have 12 years civil service.  I feel that all should give back something to this great country.  In one of the above messages, someone cited Ayn Ryan, an extreme individualist.  She came from Russia as an immigrant and liked this country so much she wouldn't leave.  She immediately decided she could improve the American way of life by promoting self-service and individual rights.  While an interesting concept,  at some point, one needs to give something back to the good of the system in some fashion.  At this point, I am sorry I even entered an opinion in any of this as I had no idea as to the lack of military support of my fellow CAP'ers.  Perhaps I have become an old dog and should just fade away.     

[flyguy06]

Don't recruiters have numbers to meet? Quota probably isn't right term.

Recruiters are under a lot of pressure to meet their productivity goals, usually expressed as their "mission".  (E.g., "My mission is two enlistments a month.")

Which is a bit of a problem from the CAP squadron perspective.  Our median age for cadets is below what recruiters are interested in.  Due to pressure to produce, recruiters have a very short range focus - who can I enlist this month? - or at least while I am on this tour?.  A 15 year old CAP cadet can't even sign papers until they are 17, and by then the individual recruiter will have moved on.

So talking to CAP units is usually not very high on their priority list.  Some will do it, or course, but most recuriters feel like they are up to their tails in alligators meeting their current mission and feel like talking to "non-productive" groups takes time away from meeting mission.

I think it is always appropriate to have senior ROTC/Academy folks come out since it serves the double purpose of encouraging college and exposing cadets to options concerning an officer career.

I agree. In fact, I know a cadet who just graduated from High schol and is a freshman in college and is in Army ROTC and he loves it. he comes back to the squadron and talks to the cadets about it all the time

[flyguy06]

For what it's worth, I am prior service active duty Army,  My Dad was Career Air Force, My oldest was Army Reserve/National Guard, my second oldest was AFA graduate and I have over 30 in CAP.  When I said military or civilian service, I didn't necessarily mean government service, although I do have 12 years civil service.  I feel that all should give back something to this great country.  In one of the above messages, someone cited Ayn Ryan, an extreme individualist.  She came from Russia as an immigrant and liked this country so much she wouldn't leave.  She immediately decided she could improve the American way of life by promoting self-service and individual rights.  While an interesting concept,  at some point, one needs to give something back to the good of the system in some fashion.  At this point, I am sorry I even entered an opinion in any of this as I had no idea as to the lack of military support of my fellow CAP'ers.  Perhaps I have become an old dog and should just fade away.   

hold on dude. Just because people dont think it should be mandatory to serve in the military doesnt mean they dont support the military.

Freedom is not free. It comes with aprice. But Freedom to think and express yourself is golden and should never be taken away.

[jimmydeanno]

...She came from Russia as an immigrant and liked this country so much she wouldn't leave.  She immediately decided she could improve the American way of life by promoting self-service and individual rights.

Coming from one of America's "sworn enemies," a place where individual rights don't exist and conscription is mandatory.  A communist country.  Communism, which overtly robs people of their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, all in favor of state ownership of everything.

I can see why she didn't want to leave and would promote that people here take advantage of their individual rights and liberties, after all, the country was founded on the principles of freedom from government oppression.

EDIT:

Rand's political views, reflected in both her fiction and her theoretical work, emphasize individual rights (including property rights) and laissez-faire capitalism, enforced by a constitutionally-limited government. She was a fierce opponent of all forms of collectivism and statism,[3][4] including fascism, communism, and the welfare state,

If that is an "extremist" then I am one too...

While an interesting concept,  at some point, one needs to give something back to the good of the system in some fashion.

Anyone who works "gives back."  Teachers, firefighters, even the fry guy at McDonald's is aiding this country.

I don't think anyone here is saying that they "hate America" or that they don't support our military/country - but there is a difference in showing support for them and acting as a recruiting service for "mandatory" government service.

CAP expects that its cadets do everything they can to be the best citizens they can.  "Prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation."  What else can you ask for?

[Hawk200]

For what it's worth, I am prior service active duty Army,

Commendable. And it's obvious that you have instilled a desire to serve others in your children.

When I said military or civilian service, I didn't necessarily mean government service, although I do have 12 years civil service. 

OK, now we're seeing a little more to your thought pattern.

I feel that all should give back something to this great country.

I agree, but I have to also put forth that military or government service is not the only way to do so. I don't recall who said it, but a statement was made in the past concerning the old Air Warning Service personnel. The statement was "They also serve, those who stand and watch." They didn't get paid, and probably weren't on any of what most people would consider "government rolls".

At this point, I am sorry I even entered an opinion in any of this as I had no idea as to the lack of military support of my fellow CAP'ers.

I think you have a misimpression of what constitutes "lack of support". If a cadet is choosing to go to the military, we should encourage that. If someone has a goal of being a doctor, we should encourage that. If someone wants to be a police officer, we should provide encouragement there too.

But if someone wants to be a firefighter in their local town, then we shouldn't be telling them "Hey, you can be a firefighter in the military." I feel that is wrong. The choice of their own path is their own. I think it shows great disrespect to a person of any age to attempt to relive our own lives through them. Their life, their choices, their path.

When it comes to recruiters, I don't have a problem with them overall. But if your cadet meeting schedule is the Air Force recruiter this week for an hour, and  the Army recruiter next week, and the Navy recruiter the week after that, then there is a problem. Our program has specific things we're supposed to be teaching, and if that time is always being taken up by a recruiter, then we're doing our cadets a disservice. They didn't join simply to allow recruiters to have access to them.

Now, an occasional meeting where all the recruiters come in on one night, give presentations on what the military has available, and field questions probably isn't a bad idea at. But that should be an occasional activity, not an often one.

[flyguy06]

I thought about having a meeting where I would have pilots from each military branch speak.

One thing about me though and I will probably get a lot of flack about. I encourage officership over enlisting. SO i probably wouldnt invite recruters to speak but I would definantly invite military officers  from each branch to speak. I want to encourage education and going to college after high school. i know everyone wont go to college but if you shoot for the stars you never know what you may get.

[jimmydeanno]

So, I probably wouldn't invite recruters to speak. But, I would definitely invite military officers from each branch to speak.

There are recruiters that are for recruiting Officers too.  When my wife was initially interested in ROTC, she went and talked to the one in our area.  There was only 1 in our whole state for the Air Force, but he was very helpful.

My wife got his contact information from the enlisted recruiter and had to make an appointment.  I don't see any reason that they wouldn't come out and talk - except that it isn't the target audience at 15...

[DogCollar]

Another way of "giving back" is what we do with our time, talents and treasure in a voluntary capacity.  In that way, I believe that being active in CAP is a way of serving the nation and community.  So is volunteering in a homeless shelter or hospital.  So is picking up trash along the highway and being a mentor/tutor to a child having a difficult time learning to read.

I fully support the men and women who serve in the military and I truly believe that 99% of CAP members feel the same way.  If a cadet is inclined and has the aptitude to serve in the military, I will assist and support in anyway possible.  I would also help the cadet that wants to be a part of the Peace Corps or UNICEF or the Red Cross.

[Hawk200]

I encourage officership over enlisting. SO i probably wouldnt invite recruters to speak but I would definantly invite military officers  from each branch to speak.

Encouragement is one thing, but only inviting officers looks like it might be serving your own agenda. Officership and education are not inclusive.

When I was in an artillery unit, I was a bit surprised to find that a lot of the guys on the gun crews had some pretty high education backgrounds. One crew alone had about half of the crew with bachelors degrees, a couple with masters, and one guy working on his doctorate. I asked them why they didn't go officer, as most of the gun crew MOS's were pretty short schools. One guy told me that that was exactly why he went with the short school, it gave him time to go to college. A few of them were actively considering commisions once their degrees were completed.

Enlisted service gives people people the opportunity to start their military careers, and pursue education while doing so. GI bill helps a good bit too. As to how GI Bill applies to officers, I don't know, you'd have to ask an officer that's used it.

[jimmydeanno]

As to how GI Bill applies to officers, I don't know, you'd have to ask an officer that's used it.

My wife is a prior enlisted, soon to be 2d Lt in the USAF.  She did 4 years, got her GI Bill, then went and did ROTC.

She was able to draw on her GI Bill while in ROTC, but could not accept an ROTC scholarship.

It worked out pretty well, because she transferred into the Air Guard, who has a tuition waiver if you go to a state school, got a kicker on her GI Bill and was able to draw her GI Bill at the same time.

So essentially, she was being paid ~$1,600/month cash to go to school.

[flyguy06]

I encourage officership over enlisting. SO i probably wouldnt invite recruters to speak but I would definantly invite military officers  from each branch to speak.

Encouragement is one thing, but only inviting officers looks like it might be serving your own agenda. Officership and education are not inclusive.

When I was in an artillery unit, I was a bit surprised to find that a lot of the guys on the gun crews had some pretty high education backgrounds. One crew alone had about half of the crew with bachelors degrees, a couple with masters, and one guy working on his doctorate. I asked them why they didn't go officer, as most of the gun crew MOS's were pretty short schools. One guy told me that that was exactly why he went with the short school, it gave him time to go to college. A few of them were actively considering commisions once their degrees were completed.

Enlisted service gives people people the opportunity to start their military careers, and pursue education while doing so. GI bill helps a good bit too. As to how GI Bill applies to officers, I don't know, you'd have to ask an officer that's used it.

I didnt say I discouraged enlisting and you are right. There are benefits to enlisting. I am not opposed to cadets talking to recruitiers. But A lot of my cadets want to be pilots and they dont realize that in order to be a pilot you must first be an officer so  they think they can just go to a recrutier and join up and be a pilot. I tell them that recruiters just want to enlist you. They dont care about your career goals and they will enlist you and tell you that you can become an officer later(MI speak because it happened to me). What happens from what I have seen is that when these kids do finally enlist, they become so disenchanted with the military because its not what they thought it was going to be they get out after their intial enlistment and never go back. Therefore never realizing the dream of becomming a military pilot.  They didnty even have to go through all of that. So I try and tell them they dont even have to go that step. being an officer is toatally different than being enlisted (I speak from experience since I have been both).

So, if I know that their goal is to be a pilot I tell them dont go to a recrutier but instead talk to a USAFA Liasion Officer or an ROTC instructor.

But yes, if a cadet is dead set on enlisting I will be the first to introduce him or her to a recruiter. But Ihave noticed in society that we ware encouraging kinds to enlist more than we are encouraging them to go to college andbecome officers. There is a stigma in society that says that you dont need an educastion to be successfull. Its taboo to sayyou are educated because people will theink that you think you are better than they are. SO people dont promote education like they used to.

[Al Sayre]

I would hazard a guess that the main reason we don't get much support from recruiters is; on average our cadets are below their target age group.  Sure, we generally have 1 or 2  >16 yr old Cadet Officers, but the median age of my 25 +/-  cadets is somewhere around 14 yrs old.  Most of our top performers already have their future plans made and are talking to College/ROTC/Academy recruiters. So all in all, we aren't exactly fertile ground for the local enlisted recruiter... JMHO

[flyguy06]

I would hazard a guess that the main reason we don't get much support from recruiters is; on average our cadets are below their target age group.  Sure, we generally have 1 or 2  >16 yr old Cadet Officers, but the median age of my 25 +/-  cadets is somewhere around 14 yrs old.  Most of our top performers already have their future plans made and are talking to College/ROTC/Academy recruiters. So all in all, we aren't exactly fertile ground for the local enlisted recruiter... JMHO

Thats true. thats another thing I have noticed in CAP. we are bringing in a lot of 12-14 years olds. When I was a cadet we had alot more 16-18 year olds.

[SarDragon]

I don't think it's my job in CAP to encourage or discourage a cadet from doing what they want to do.  I do think that it is my job to help them get where they want to go though.

+1000

I had a cadet in my unit in Maine who asked me for some advice when he was a senior in HS. I refused, stating that I would not make suggestions on how to plan his life.

His particular dilemma was concerning college choice - AFA or USNA against a full ride ROTC scholarship at Cornell. I presented the choices as I saw them, and the pros and cons of each.

After getting his Spaatz, he went to Cornell on his full ride (USN), got a Double E, went to Cal Tech for his masters degree, and spent his five years in the Navy working for Rickover in the nuke program. After leaving the Navy, he went to work for TRW designing VLSI microcircuits.

Bottom line, it was all about choices, not advice. I think the same thing applies to recruiters. We present options, and let them decide.

[flyguy06]

I see my job as  a cadet programs officer as a mentor. Someone who has lived life. WHo has been where the cadet wants to go. SO yes, I do give advice. The cadet isnt obligated to take it but I feel I need to at least present it.

If a cadet comes to me with a question wheather or not to go to college or to get a job. I am going to advise him to go to college.

[SarDragon]

But what if college isn't right for someone? Would you have them waste the time and money figuring that out? That's why I offer choices, and pros and cons, and let them make the decision. I give them a road map and let them pick which fork in the road to follow, without any influence in any specific direction.

[Johnny Yuma]

Face it, the cadets aren't volunteering to be in CAP, donning USAF type uniforms, learning military drill and doing what we do if there wasn't an interest in military life to some degree.

I've seen cadets who were high speed, low drag members of the cadet program that simply weren't cut out for military service. At the same time I know of one former cadet, never made it out of the cadet NCO ranks, who's well into a long Army career of flying Chinooks as a warrant officer.

I'd never discourage any cadet from doing anything short of being immoral, illegal or incredibly stupid.

[flyguy06]

So, I probably wouldn't invite recruters to speak. But, I would definitely invite military officers from each branch to speak.

There are recruiters that are for recruiting Officers too.  When my wife was initially interested in ROTC, she went and talked to the one in our area.  There was only 1 in our whole state for the Air Force, but he was very helpful.

My wife got his contact information from the enlisted recruiter and had to make an appointment.  I don't see any reason that they wouldn't come out and talk - except that it isn't the target audience at 15...

Your wife probablt already had her degree. The only way a recrutier can recruti officers is if they already have a degree.

[Cecil DP]

Every citizen and resident of this country owes a debt to their nation. How they do it is up to them, but we as leaders in this organization should be helping them in finding a way to make that repayment. Too many people in the 18-22 age group don't have a clue as to what they are doing or where they'll be in 5 years. If they choose a military career, help them make that decision, by answering questions, and making sure that they ask the right ones when they meet a recruiter. If they decide to further their education make sure that they are aware that the average student changes major 3 times before graduation and to be flexible in their goals.
The objection to recruiters coming in to the squadron, but allowing Academy spokesmen to come in is strange because the academy people are recruiters also, even though they are called liasons.

[Spike]

As a Squadron Commander, I allow recruiters to make presentations 1 hour before we start the meeting.  We tell the Cadets in advance that if they are interested to be there 1 hour before.  PERIOD.  We have limited amount of time each week and have many things to accomplish.

I want to expose my Cadets to the military, and offer that opportunity.  I do invite military members to give presentations on military life, duties, jobs, careers and activities they are involved with during CAP meetings but before hand tell them they are not there to recruit, just inform.

It works out perfect.  I have a great relationship with the Academy Liaison Officers, ROTC folks, and recruiters from all branches.  We jointly offer shadowing to all Cadets, and other opportunities that these Cadets would not get anywhere else. 

PLUS I have so many boxes of recruiting junk (pens, water bottles, notepads and shirts it is ridiculous!!)   

[flyguy06]

Every citizen and resident of this country owes a debt to their nation. How they do it is up to them, but we as leaders in this organization should be helping them in finding a way to make that repayment. Too many people in the 18-22 age group don't have a clue as to what they are doing or where they'll be in 5 years. If they choose a military career, help them make that decision, by answering questions, and making sure that they ask the right ones when they meet a recruiter. If they decide to further their education make sure that they are aware that the average student changes major 3 times before graduation and to be flexible in their goals.
The objection to recruiters coming in to the squadron, but allowing Academy spokesmen to come in is strange because the academy people are recruiters also, even though they are called liasons.

You are getting posts mixed up. I fully support recruiters. I said I try and promote officer programs over enlisting.


There are a lot of retired Vietnam era vets on here arent there?

[JK657]

Reading this post has me all riled up!

The question is should senior members encourage or discourage cadets from entering the military, not about recruiters. While programs like CAP, AFJROTC,etc are geared towards making and educating better citizens an implied goal is the possible recruitment of dedicated young people into service of the nation. If senior members have some issue with cadets entering the military they probably should start looking for another place to donate their time other than the Official Auxiliary to the US Air Force. I'm sure there are plenty of Sheriff's Posses or SAR teams that would love their experience.

I'm just sayin......

[Spike]

^ You are 100% WRONG.  We are not recruiting for the Military.  Have you forgotten that the Cadet Program (although huge) is only one (1) of Three CAP Programs.  Nowhere does it say CAP's mission (implied or otherwise) is to provide men and women for the Military Services. 

Your response reinforces the image some Mothers have brought to me.  The "I want little Billy or Suzie to Join CAP, but I am scared they will be sent to Iraq".

My Job is to provide a good solid education to Cadets based in military traditions, provide means of response to my local community, and educate my members and the general public about Aerospace. 

If they added the "provide x amount of raw recruits for military service", I would quit.  I say that, and I am in the Military.

Just because an organization uses military customs, terminology and appears to be military, DOES NOT mean it is.

For you to say "go join another organization is both arrogant and ignorant and downright disrespectful to those of us doing the best we can.  If you brought your attitude to my unit, you would not last very long.   

[AirAux]

Spike, I think you need to reread his post.  If anybody is coming off as arrogant and egotistical, it is you.  Lighten up.  Your attitude wouldn't last in my squadron at all.

[JK657]

Despite the tone of Spikes post I will try to reply as professionally as possible:

^ You are 100% WRONG.  We are not recruiting for the Military.  Have you forgotten that the Cadet Program (although huge) is only one (1) of Three CAP Programs.  Nowhere does it say CAP's mission (implied or otherwise) is to provide men and women for the Military Services."

Response: I understand CAPs three missions. What I said in my post is that an IMPLIED goal would be the POSSIBLE encouragement of cadets to serve our nation in one of the armed forces. If the Air Force wasn't interested in CAP cadets why would they offer increased rank for the completion of certain cadet achievements.

Your response reinforces the image some Mothers have brought to me.  The "I want little Billy or Suzie to Join CAP, but I am scared they will be sent to Iraq".

Response: If there are parents out there who somehow think their 14 year old kid is going to be sent to Iraq due to membership in CAP we need to educate them about CAP and its role in our nation.

My Job is to provide a good solid education to Cadets based in military traditions, provide means of response to my local community, and educate my members and the general public about Aerospace.  If they added the "provide x amount of raw recruits for military service", I would quit.  I say that, and I am in the Military.

Response: Holy Cow, no one is saying that all of a sudden CAP senior members are now recruiters and have to sign up recruits to make mission.

Just because an organization uses military customs, terminology and appears to be military, DOES NOT mean it is.

For you to say "go join another organization is both arrogant and ignorant and downright disrespectful to those of us doing the best we can.  If you brought your attitude to my unit, you would not last very long.

Response: We all know that CAP is not the military. It is the Official Auxiliary to the US Air Force, nothing more, nothing less.  My recommendation that people leave and join another group is aimed at those who DISCOURAGE cadets from joining the armed forces. As a senior member you are not obligated to recruit, encourage, solicit, or in any way persuade a cadet to join the military BUT if a cadet was interested in joining you shouldn't DISCOURAGE them from joining. If a senior member were so against joining the military as to encourage a cadet not to join, maybe they should look for another group to participate in.

If you'd like to discuss this further I'm happy to take it to PM... or if you are close to CA maybe we can have a drink and talk it over, I'll buy the first round. 

[EMT-83]

From an email received yesterday from the mother of one of our cadets...

"I truly believe that his experiences with CAP better prepared him for Norwich, and the Air Force ROTC, than anything else. I appreciate your work with the squadron and hope you continue your good work that benefits our next generation of leaders."

Just though it was worth sharing.

[flyguy06]

Reading this post has me all riled up!

The question is should senior members encourage or discourage cadets from entering the military, not about recruiters. While programs like CAP, AFJROTC,etc are geared towards making and educating better citizens an implied goal is the possible recruitment of dedicated young people into service of the nation. If senior members have some issue with cadets entering the military they probably should start looking for another place to donate their time other than the Official Auxiliary to the US Air Force. I'm sure there are plenty of Sheriff's Posses or SAR teams that would love their experience.

I'm just sayin......

I think you're right JK. CAP is a military program althought we dont require military service. The reality is most young people join CAP because of the military aspect of it. Not all though. I have met a few cadets that have no desire to go into the military and that is ok. But I do believ ethe majority join because of the military part. A lot of seniors these days well thats another story. 

[Nathan]

I have no problem with military recruiters or seniors talking about the military. Almost nobody joins CAP as a cadet without some desire to at least explore the military route.

That being said, I would not tolerate (and have shut down) senior members who spout off either radical anti-military or pro-military views. There is a fine line between explaining the realities of the job and making politics.

I would expand to say, however, that I would not have a problem with a Peace Corps recruiter coming in. Or a recruiter for Delta. Or a medical school recruiter. Or whatever. The idea is to present jobs to the cadets that not only are interesting possibilities for them, but also ones that would take advantage of most cadets' inherent enthusiasm and drive to succeed.

The military is one path of obvious interest to many, if not most cadets. So we would be lax in our job of helping the cadets become model citizens and set their life path out if we didn't offer people who can talk honestly about the military. On the same hand, we obviously need to be careful to ensure that the cadets are being given the ability to think critically about what they're being told. I'm certainly not expecting the recruiters to downplay their own branch, but if I were to start hearing things that were a little too targeted, then I would probably pull the plug.

[kd8gua]

Should seniors encourage or discourage? No, they shouldn't do either. I feel that letting enlisted or officers come in to talk is a great thing though. However, it shouldn't be a "Hoo-rah! Go Army! Go Marines!" propaganda fest. The last thing a CAP meeting needs is a recruiter coming in and talking about how cool one brach is over another. By its own uniformed nature, the CAP cadet program is a quasi- USAF recruitment tool. No, I'm not specifically saying that all cadets are going to join the USAF at 18, but a lot of them are slanted to the USAF.

Back in my cadet days, my cousin came to a squadron meeting to talk about the importance of education, physical fitness, and deciding what you want to do. My cousin is a MSgt in the US Army Special Forces. He could have easily come in, dusted off his Class A's with all of his decorations and everything else, and talked about a career in the Army and Army Ranger school, but he chose to keep things simple. He shared some stories about training and deciding on the military.

CAP, even with some of the problems that I faced (including leaving my squadron at a point in which there were 7 cadets, including all cadet staff), was one of the best things I could have done in high school. I had never heard of CAP until a friend told my family about it. While I was in, my fellow cadets were all looking at various options. Some wanted to join the military out of high school, some wanted to go to a service academy, others ROTC. No one was discouraged, but everyone was encouraged to follow what they wanted to do. I wanted to go into Aviation and do ROTC. My senior year of high school I decided against ROTC, and was instead opting for OTS after college. Then I had a change of heart and wanted to major in Music Education instead of Aviation. At that point I left all of the decisions of USAF careers in the past. Currently I'm not taking classes, because music didn't feel like a calling to me either. Right now I drive buses on a college campus. It's a full time job that feels rewarding. I feel like I'm doing something by doing it.

So pushing cadets to either do military service, or NOT do military service, isn't a good idea. Neither is pushing cadets to go to college or work right out of high school. Trust me, it took me 3 1/2 years to realize I was wasting time and money in college, not really sure what I wanted to do. I plan to get a degree in something down the road, just to show that I can accomplish it. But right now, I have a job that I enjoy. I'm in the process of getting my files together to come back to CAP, and I hope that somehow I can give back to the organization that helped me out.

As a side note, a lot of my friends from CAP are in completely different things than what they hoped. Two cadets enlisted into the USAF. Two identical twin cadets enlisted into the USCG. Others went into the Army, and one of my friends went into AFROTC only to realize it wasn't what she wanted. A good number of the rest of the cadets are just college students or employed members of society. One cadet in particular left CAP, but came back and entered the Flight Officer program and is flying missions now.

CAP is an auxiliary of the USAF, and will always be. But look at our logo. The blue circle with the white triangle and red prop. We are the only organization built out of the US Civil Defense program that still uses its CD style logo. Civil Defense is just that, civilians volunteering to defend our country. Granted we aren't having 12 year old cadets do border patrols, but we are still doing things, both as cadets and seniors, in a voluntary capacity, to make this country something great.

Emergency Services, Aerospace Education, and Cadet Programs are the three programs we are all responsible for on some level. Yes, some members may focus on one program more than the others, but all of these things work hand in hand to make this organization what it is. Take away one, and it turns into co-ed Boy Scouts (not that they aren't useful in developing leaders themselves). Take away another, and CAP is just a military costume party for people 12 and up to play Air Force.

At any rate, seniors, as well as cadet officers, should encourage individual cadets to follow their dreams. If cadets have tough decisions, then it is no one's responsibility to encourage the cadet to pick one. The cadet should be presented all sides of the decision, all possible outcomes, and the cadet should decide on their own which way they want to go. This shouldn't just stop at school or military decisions. Don't forget about the moral leadership lessons and just general life skills that are developed in a squadron meeting.

[Stonewall]

So in a nutshell, you only suggest that we encourage cadets to follow their dreams?  Interesting.

So your dream was to be a campus bus driver?  What happened here is you settled.  You settled for something other than your original goal(s) and now you're trying to convince yourself, and us, that you have a rewarding job driving a bus on a school campus.  Good, real good.

There is nothing wrong with being a campus bus driver; nor is there anything wrong with being a $12 hr security officer.  But who grows up, especially in middle/high school (i.e. cadet age) with aspirations to be an hourly security officer?  I have security officers that work for me made up of all different types.  A couple are using the position as a means to an end; they're in college or using it as a temporary gig and are reaching towards higher goals.  I love these guys!!! Remind me of me.  Then I have the retired guys who spent their lives as police officers or career military NCOs.  These guys are reliable, competent and not easily persuaded to look the other way.  I love these guys too.  Then I have 2 guys in their early 30s with zero aspirations or goals.  They've told me so.  Zero college and no military background.  This is not a temporary job; this is their only job. 


So please, when you do come back into CAP as a senior member, don't work with cadets.  As a 20+ year veteran of CAP, and former cadet, I have strongly suggested the military as a viable option.  Likewise, I have encouraged post-high school studies and public safety (fire dept, law enforcement) .  I have former cadets who are PJs, cops, public school teachers, military officers, paramedics, cops,and civil engineers.  Pretty much all of them had an idea of what they wanted to accomplish in their lives or what job they wanted after high school.  If one of them said they wanted to be a security officer or a bus driver, you better believe I would have steered them away from that "goal" and pushed the military option strong and hard.

[MSgt Van]

I have an obligation to making sure cadets have the facts before jumping into the military.  I make sure there's a reliable B.S. filter available when they start talking with a recruiter (although this isn't a problem with the recruiters in this area). Some cadets are a natural fit for military duty, and I'd be proud to serve with them. Others, not so much. It's their decision, I just want to make sure it's an informed one.

[kd8gua]

So in a nutshell, you only suggest that we encourage cadets to follow their dreams?  Interesting.

So your dream was to be a campus bus driver?  What happened here is you settled.  You settled for something other than your original goal(s) and now you're trying to convince yourself, and us, that you have a rewarding job driving a bus on a school campus.  Good, real good.

There is nothing wrong with being a campus bus driver; nor is there anything wrong with being a $12 hr security officer.  But who grows up, especially in middle/high school (i.e. cadet age) with aspirations to be an hourly security officer?  I have security officers that work for me made up of all different types.  A couple are using the position as a means to an end; they're in college or using it as a temporary gig and are reaching towards higher goals.  I love these guys!!! Remind me of me.  Then I have the retired guys who spent their lives as police officers or career military NCOs.  These guys are reliable, competent and not easily persuaded to look the other way.  I love these guys too.  Then I have 2 guys in their early 30s with zero aspirations or goals.  They've told me so.  Zero college and no military background.  This is not a temporary job; this is their only job. 


So please, when you do come back into CAP as a senior member, don't work with cadets.  As a 20+ year veteran of CAP, and former cadet, I have strongly suggested the military as a viable option.  Likewise, I have encouraged post-high school studies and public safety (fire dept, law enforcement) .  I have former cadets who are PJs, cops, public school teachers, military officers, paramedics, cops,and civil engineers.  Pretty much all of them had an idea of what they wanted to accomplish in their lives or what job they wanted after high school.  If one of them said they wanted to be a security officer or a bus driver, you better believe I would have steered them away from that "goal" and pushed the military option strong and hard.

Not everyone is cut out for the military. I know I'm not. But it took me going through CAP, and deciding on ROTC or not to realize that it isn't for me. So someone pushing me into military service would do nothing but make me angry with them. Just like you telling me I shouldn't work with cadets or that my dream job was to be a bus driver.  I am the first person in my immediate family to even attempt to go to college. Neither of my parents tried and just started working right out of high school. So for me to get as far as I did is saying something. I am a smart person, graduated in the top 30 of my class (I'm sure you'll have some smart remark about why I wasn't in the top 10) but I don't like school. I have no desire to read page after page of textbook, as I get nothing out of it. I learn through more hand-on type things. And frankly I have yet to find a program that encompasses my interests.

Please don't patronize me and tell me who I am and am not convincing or not convincing. My job is something that not everyone can do. And a simple thank you is all the appreciation that I need to make at least one day of work seem rewarding. I'd like to see you jump behind the seat of a 40 foot bus and drive around a crowded college campus without hitting something.

I apologize if this is off-topic, but I don't take to kindly to people bashing me and the choices I have made in my life. I'm sorry not everyone is perfect like you sir, and had their life planned out from the day they popped out of the womb. Some of us literally have no idea what we want to do with our lives. I'm doing things that I enjoy doing. I'm not going to stop doing things I enjoy because it doesn't fit in yours or anyone else's plan for life. You live your life how you want and please let me live mine how I want. If I wanted you to tell me that being a bus driver is a dead end job and that I'm a lost cause because I have no goals or aspirations, I would have kindly asked you. I have enough people telling me what I'm doing wrong, and I have enough self-confidence and self-esteem issues that I don't need more people telling me what I'm doing wrong.