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NCO

Started by pantera3110, March 09, 2015, 03:26:08 PM

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lordmonar

Quote from: jeders on April 20, 2015, 03:39:52 PM
Some interesting notes from the CAP Command Chief who did a presentation at the TXWG conference this past weekend. Just thought I'd throw these out there for the wolves.

Apparently General Vazquez isn't as big of a fan of this new program as his predecessor was. According to Col Chief, there will not be any non-prior service NCOs nor will there be ANY degree requirements for officers so long as Gen Vazquez is in charge. On the one point, CAP simply doesn't have the resources to train up NCOs who haven't been NCOs any the military. On the other point, we are all volunteers, and that's what really matters.
Wasn't going to be any anyways.....we are a long way before we open up the NCO Corps to non-prior services....and that has to happen before we make becoming an officer harder.

So...kind of a non-issue.

So....we will see what we will see.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

NCRblues

Quote from: lordmonar on April 20, 2015, 10:57:03 PM
Quote from: jeders on April 20, 2015, 03:39:52 PM
Some interesting notes from the CAP Command Chief who did a presentation at the TXWG conference this past weekend. Just thought I'd throw these out there for the wolves.

Apparently General Vazquez isn't as big of a fan of this new program as his predecessor was. According to Col Chief, there will not be any non-prior service NCOs nor will there be ANY degree requirements for officers so long as Gen Vazquez is in charge. On the one point, CAP simply doesn't have the resources to train up NCOs who haven't been NCOs any the military. On the other point, we are all volunteers, and that's what really matters.
Wasn't going to be any anyways.....we are a long way before we open up the NCO Corps to non-prior services....and that has to happen before we make becoming an officer harder.

So...kind of a non-issue.

So....we will see what we will see.

Help me out a little, as I am unsure of what you are trying to get across with this response.

So, the command chief of CAP (whom I presume is on your NCO committee) informs a rather large Wing that this idea is more or less D.O.A. and confirmed all the rumors (basically) that this project was a pet of the last CC.

Your response to this is we will see what we will see?
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

lordmonar

No.....he said the national cc will not endorse phase 3 on his watch.   His watch us over in 2 years phase three was at least that far away.  We may not be DOA yet. 

I'm traveling right now and have not yet communicated with the command chief.  When I do I will have a better understanding of the patient's condition.   We've had to wait out national commanders before. This is nothing new.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

PHall

Quote from: lordmonar on April 21, 2015, 01:24:31 AM
No.....he said the national cc will not endorse phase 3 on his watch.   His watch us over in 2 years phase three was at least that far away.  We may not be DOA yet. 

I'm traveling right now and have not yet communicated with the command chief.  When I do I will have a better understanding of the patient's condition.   We've had to wait out national commanders before. This is nothing new.

Yeah Pat, his term is over in two more years unless the BOG extends his term which they can for one to three years at their descretion.
And I think he knows by now that this "committee" are not his biggest fans.
You may have waited out National Commanders before, but the rules are different now.

Shuman 14

Quote from: JeffDG on April 20, 2015, 06:20:21 PM
Quote from: PHall on April 20, 2015, 05:52:06 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on April 20, 2015, 05:30:36 PM
Quote from: PHall on April 20, 2015, 04:51:18 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on April 20, 2015, 04:21:15 PM
That is not from the Horse's Mouth.

It is from the Bull's Mouth that heard it from the Sheep's Mouth that was on the barn with him. Who supposedly Heard the Horse in The Master Farm way over there...

:P

You could at least attribute this to Mr Orwell... ::)

The CAP members in Blue pants are more equal than others.  ;)

So sayeth the Patron member who doesn't wear any pants!   >:D

TOO MUCH INFORMATION


;D
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

PHall

Ball's in your court JeffDG. >:D

Flying Pig

1Lt : "Hey Command Chief.......hey, can you man the snack bar for me at the cadet break?"

Command Chief : "Ummmmm..well, I'm a command chief"

1Lt : "yeah, ok Bob...I know.   Ok, you take out the trash and I'll man the snack bar."

Luis R. Ramos

QuoteFrom NCO

1Lt : "Hey Command Chief.......hey, can you man the snack bar for me at the cadet break?"

Command Chief : "Ummmmm..well, I'm a command chief"

1Lt : "yeah, ok Bob...I know.   Ok, you take out the trash and I'll man the snack bar."


Command Chief: "Yeah sure Lt and with Pleasure! Cadet, please take out..."

>:D
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

FW

I think the horse is officially dead.... >:D

Flying Pig

NO!  Im just about to break into some of my best material.  I mean this is stuff I never break into until at least the 16 page mark

Storm Chaser


Quote from: Flying Pig on April 21, 2015, 12:07:24 PM
1Lt : "Hey Command Chief.......hey, can you man the snack bar for me at the cadet break?"

Command Chief : "Ummmmm..well, I'm a command chief"

1Lt : "yeah, ok Bob...I know.   Ok, you take out the trash and I'll man the snack bar."

In the Air Force, a 1st Lt would never ask the Command CMSgt to man the snack bar or take out the trash. I'm not saying a CMSgt wouldn't do those things, but a 1st Lt wouldn't ask him or her to.

Flying Pig

Whats this got to do with the USAF?   In CAP we would.  Because at the end of the day... the job falls to pretty much anyone and everyone capable.

LSThiker

Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 21, 2015, 01:21:02 PM
In the Air Force, a 1st Lt would never ask the Command CMSgt to man the snack bar or take out the trash. I'm not saying a CMSgt wouldn't do those things, but a 1st Lt wouldn't ask him or her to.

No, but a newly minted 2d Lt might :)

kwe1009

Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 21, 2015, 01:21:02 PM

Quote from: Flying Pig on April 21, 2015, 12:07:24 PM
1Lt : "Hey Command Chief.......hey, can you man the snack bar for me at the cadet break?"

Command Chief : "Ummmmm..well, I'm a command chief"

1Lt : "yeah, ok Bob...I know.   Ok, you take out the trash and I'll man the snack bar."

In the Air Force, a 1st Lt would never ask the Command CMSgt to man the snack bar or take out the trash. I'm not saying a CMSgt wouldn't do those things, but a 1st Lt wouldn't ask him or her to.

But a 2nd Lt would!   ;D

What would happen in the Air Force really doesn't apply here.  I can see this happening.  Especially with a 1st Lt that was never in the military.

Tim Day

Quote from: Flying Pig on April 21, 2015, 01:51:45 PM
Whats this got to do with the USAF?   In CAP we would.  Because at the end of the day... the job falls to pretty much anyone and everyone capable.

Yeah, I guess I've yet to hear a clearly articulated requirement for having true NCOs in an organization with no enlisted / officer distinction and a single-path, linear, non-competitive career progression with no caps on time served. In some ways this doesn't bother me because apart from customs and courtesies rendered to grade worn I deal with fellow senior members based on their assigned jobs versus that grade.
Tim Day
Lt Col CAP
Prince William Composite Squadron Commander

Tim Day

#315
Quote from: kwe1009 on April 21, 2015, 01:57:22 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 21, 2015, 01:21:02 PM

Quote from: Flying Pig on April 21, 2015, 12:07:24 PM
1Lt : "Hey Command Chief.......hey, can you man the snack bar for me at the cadet break?"

Command Chief : "Ummmmm..well, I'm a command chief"

1Lt : "yeah, ok Bob...I know.   Ok, you take out the trash and I'll man the snack bar."

In the Air Force, a 1st Lt would never ask the Command CMSgt to man the snack bar or take out the trash. I'm not saying a CMSgt wouldn't do those things, but a 1st Lt wouldn't ask him or her to.

But a 2nd Lt would!   ;D

What would happen in the Air Force really doesn't apply here.  I can see this happening.  Especially with a 1st Lt that was never in the military.

And it would be our fault for failing to adequately cover customs and courtesies in our SM Level 1 training. On the other hand, based on my experience with senior NCOs in the Navy (Master Chief Petty Officers) and a few Air Force NCOs I know here's a more likely scenario:

2nd Lt and CMSgt are closing up the Operations Office for the evening after a long day. 2nd Lt grabs the trash bag on the way out. CMSgt: "Sir, I'll get that."

2nd Lt "No problem, Chief, I can get it."

CMSgt "Negative sir, I'll get it." Informal professional development follows where the Chief explains a little more about the role of Officers. 2nd Lt humbly hands Chief the trash bag but renews his commitment to take care of his troops and gains a little insight into the dedication of the people who are calling him "Sir" and depending on him to make decisions and represent their needs to the CO.
Tim Day
Lt Col CAP
Prince William Composite Squadron Commander

Flying Pig

In CAP we are all equals.  Our authority is derived based on our positions held not our ranks. I was a squadron commander of a fairly large unit as a 1Lt and stocked the fridge, manned the snack bar and spent time on my hands and knees with a green scratch pad during squadron clean up day.  Right next to my deputy commander who was a Major and our safety officer who was a retired LTC and USAF F4 pilot.  We did not assign jobs based on ranks.  We were volunteers getting done what needed to get done.  Not worry about customs and courtesies based on patches we wear.

vorteks

Quote from: Flying Pig on April 21, 2015, 01:51:45 PM
... Because at the end of the day... the job falls to pretty much anyone and everyone capable.

Or incapable.

THRAWN

Quote from: Flying Pig on April 21, 2015, 02:30:22 PM
In CAP we are all equals.  Our authority is derived based on our positions held not our ranks. I was a squadron commander of a fairly large unit as a 1Lt and stocked the fridge, manned the snack bar and spent time on my hands and knees with a green scratch pad during squadron clean up day.  Right next to my deputy commander who was a Major and our safety officer who was a retired LTC and USAF F4 pilot.  We did not assign jobs based on ranks.  We were volunteers getting done what needed to get done.  Not worry about customs and courtesies based on patches we wear.

Bingo. Goes back to what has been said about scrapping the entire rank system of SMs and going to a CG Aux style system. If you're in charge you get a stripe, or a silly hat, or a badge. When you're no longer in the position you just go back to being a Civil Airman....
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

kwe1009

Quote from: THRAWN on April 21, 2015, 03:57:31 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 21, 2015, 02:30:22 PM
In CAP we are all equals.  Our authority is derived based on our positions held not our ranks. I was a squadron commander of a fairly large unit as a 1Lt and stocked the fridge, manned the snack bar and spent time on my hands and knees with a green scratch pad during squadron clean up day.  Right next to my deputy commander who was a Major and our safety officer who was a retired LTC and USAF F4 pilot.  We did not assign jobs based on ranks.  We were volunteers getting done what needed to get done.  Not worry about customs and courtesies based on patches we wear.

Bingo. Goes back to what has been said about scrapping the entire rank system of SMs and going to a CG Aux style system. If you're in charge you get a stripe, or a silly hat, or a badge. When you're no longer in the position you just go back to being a Civil Airman....

I like the silly hat idea!

Emphasis added above.  Seriously, you are correct, rank in CAP really doesn't mean that much and having an enlisted and officer Sm structure just adds to the confusion.  I still don't see the point.  When I joined CAP my squadron commander asked if I wanted to be an officer or keep my stripes.  When I asked him if there would be any benefit to the squadron if I kept my stripes the reply was "no, and it would just confuse the cadets."  That was all I needed to hear and I became a CAP officer. 

My goal in CAP is to help others in and out of the organization.  If being an officer is what it takes to reach that goal then so be it.  I am very proud of the stripes that I earned in the Air Force but CAP is not the USAF so I do not see the need to continue wearing the stripes.  I mean no disrespect to those that choose to continue to wear stripes in CAP, this is just my personal feeling.

A volunteer organization needs to have an easy to understand and implement organization structure in order to succeed.  With that statement, having NCOs doe not fit that model unless we are going to implement it like it is on the cadet side where you join as a basic and then work your way up.  I think that is a little overkill but it is the only option that makes sense to me.