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NCO

Started by pantera3110, March 09, 2015, 03:26:08 PM

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Storm Chaser

Quote from: lordmonar on March 11, 2015, 04:55:00 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 11, 2015, 04:50:40 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on March 11, 2015, 04:09:40 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 11, 2015, 09:52:34 AM
I find it interesting that he is a CDC since the reg states NCOs can not be a commander.
Deputy Commanders are not Commanders.    By definition.  :)

Deputy Commanders assume command of the unit in the Commander's absence. Hence, if NCOs can't be Commanders, then they shouldn't be Deputy Commanders either.
Not true.
Sorry, not supported by regulations.  Not supported by practice.

CAP or Air Force? In 18 years of service I've never seen an NCO assigned as deputy commander in the Air Force. CAP? I think the small percentage of NCOs and non-existent regulation on the matter can hardly be construed as "practice".

Quote from: lordmonar on March 11, 2015, 05:03:50 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 11, 2015, 04:54:18 PM
Yet, a regulation was published with duty positions required for certain promotions, but without the duty position descriptions or the capability of assigning them in eServices.

Yep....when we finished that part of it....we sent it out...slowly expanding.   When we get the duty positions ready we'll send those out......slowly expanding.   

Why all the heart burn?

Is it causing you some problems at the squadron level?   Losing missions?   Makes getting ES done harder?   Adding extra work to your admin people?

It's causing confusion. It's causing another division within the membership. It's eliminating a sector of our membership from potential command assignments. It's adding additional paperwork since there's no online method for promoting NCOs or assigning them to these special NCO positions. Other than that, no heart burns.

Quote from: lordmonar on March 11, 2015, 05:03:50 PM
It is easy to build the frame work.  It is the details that are hard. We could have pushed out the duty positions on the same day we pushed out the promotion reg changes.  They would not have been right....but they would have been in E-services.   We want to take this in stride.  We want to make sure we are doing it right.  So....please be patient.   If you have any questions you can ask your region representative on the NCO committee.

I have a couple of questions for you. How do NCOs make CAP better? And, what can a CAP NCO do that a CAP officer can't?

RiverAux

#61
Quote from: Spam on March 11, 2015, 07:17:58 PM
If I see stripes and rockers, I think "Pro NCO" and am inclined to give him/her the benefit of the doubt and to pay more attention,

Why?  They are no more likely to know the first thing about CAP than anyone else.  In fact, under current regulations there is a decent chance that they know an awful lot less about CAP than a home-grown CAP 1st Lieutenant since they are in one of the favored groups that gets rank by bypassing the normal system that makes you figure out what is what in CAP. 

Like any former military member they have a distinct advantage in a very small sliver of CAP life -- knowing how to wear their uniform properly.  They hopefully also have a heaping dose of general leadership skills.  But when it comes time to knowing how to specifically get something done in CAP they don't know any more than the lifelong cafeteria worker. 

The reverse elitism in regards to service NCOs just amuses me to no end. 

abdsp51

I have tried to stay out of this as much possible.  Lord I think that this program would be more well received if there was more clear cut guidance on it.  The tap dancing and insistence that it is a great thing I feel is doing more harm than good.

This was something that was thought up wasn't fully developed and kicked out for membership to receive and support with virtually nothing guide it at all.  You say the committee is working on it and there is more coming.

Now I wear stripes as an NCO for my day job and bars for my CAP job and honestly from both perspectives I do not see much that a CAP NCO can do just as well or better than the officer corp currently does.  You and I both know the amount of time, effort, training and money it costs to produce a quality NCO in the service and let's be honest anyone coming off the street and opting for the enlisted route is not going to have that. 

As one NCO to another I applaud you for embracing this new concept and working to get it somewhere, however I see a lot of smoke an mirror and just because responses when it comes to what exactly they are suppose to do in the unit, duty descriptions, and what overall benefit that an NCO corp will provide that is currently not provided by the current corp of limited NCOs and the officer corp. 

You and I both know that for something to be received and work well there should be a buy in from the majority of people involved.  And while CAPTALK is not a representation as a whole of the the CAP membership I am not seeing a lot of buy in from the membership who will be expected to administer and oversee this program. 

This is something that should have waited until it was fully developed before being put out.  Then we wouldn't have misguided personnel looking for answers on a virtual non existent program. 

So I ask you as an NCO to another what is the benefit that a CAP NCO brings to the table that can not already be filled by current CAP officers such as myself? What is role/s are they expected to do and duties they are expected to perform that are not or simply can not be performed by the current officer corp?  How do you propose to build a quality CAP NCO with no prior service background once the programs gets to that point of implementation? 

lordmonar

I'm traveling right now.   I will try to answer all your questions tonight.   
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Fubar

Quote from: abdsp51 on March 11, 2015, 09:05:46 PM
So I ask you as an NCO to another what is the benefit that a CAP NCO brings to the table that can not already be filled by current CAP officers such as myself?

This basic question should have been answered before any regulations were changed or any working groups were formed. Instead, the only answer I've seen so far is that it's a perfect way to ensure you won't ever have to be a commander. I'm pretty sure my squadron will end up as a group of NCOs with a 2d Lt as the squadron commander.

PHall

Pat, what really needs to happen is that the program needs to be put on hold until you guys get everything settled.
This thing is nowhere near ready for prime time and it was a big time mistake to launch this program before it was anywhere near ready.

lordmonar

Okay.....Caveats  first.   

The following is mostly my personal opinion and may not represent the opions/aims/goals/policies of the NCO committee or the Civil Air Patrol.   So keep your anger directed at me and not at CAP, NHQ, or the NCO program in general.


So...having said that.

IMHO I think that the current CAP rank/PD/promotion system is broken.   Not totally broken, not unfixable, not sending CAP down the toilet at the next full moon.....just broken in the sense that it does not do what rank and promotions mean in most other organizations that use military rank.

The fact that we got 21 year olds walking off the street and do some online courses and wait six months and bam!  They are 2d Lts.......is just not right IMHO.   Our parent service, our non-military customers, and even our own members just don't look at CAP officers as "real" officers.  It is possible to move up the ranks to Lt Col with out ever....not once.....ever hold a job above the squadron level.   Our top ranking non-commanders....supposed masters in the duty specialty.....have never done the job above that of normal squadron Lt.  That IMHO is wrong as well.

So....a possible fix to that is to make it harder to become an officer, beef up the training to be an officer and offer another path of service for those who can't or wont get what is needed to be an officer.

Using the military model....that means a mostly enlisted force.

That is my aim and goal for transforming CAP.

Most CAP members would join up and become Airman Basics....and move up the line from there.

To get to that end we have to build an NCO corps to be in place, ready to lead those future enlisted members.

To build an NCO corps we are using to existing structure and making small incremental changes.

NOW....once again......this is my own opinion.   No where have we officially talked about creating an enlisted corps.....it is just an idea that I would like to promote....once we get an open and professional NCO corps up and running.

As for PHall's comment......yes I agree that maybe we did announce a little early.

But on the ground truth of things.....what are we talking about.   Right now there are only about 90 +/- stripe wearing NCOs in CAP.

The changes to the promotion regulations are not complete.....but this is not the first time CAP has pushed changes to regulations with out the supporting leg work being ready at the time of publishing the regulation.  (SAFETY and CPP jump to mind right off the bat).

But as far as making problems.....well.....we are talking about less then 100 people right now.

CAP is slow....we all know that.  It takes time to work and issue...run it up the flag pole, bring it back down, wash rinse repeat.   

A lot of your criticisms is correct.  There is not a lot of information out there......the duty positions are not finalized, and E-service does not support the promotions.   We need to get more information out to the troops.    I will bring this up at the next meeting... (if the Chief does not read it first here  :) ).     

As for Fubar's comment.....so?  What is wrong with that?   Makes more sense in a lot of ways....a bunch of NCOs getting the job done and a LT or Captain bossing them around.  Sounds like a good plan to me.

Draw that out....Group would have a Maj or Lt Col bossing around a bunch of MSgts and TSgts getting the mission done.  Wing will have a bunch of Majors and Lt Cols. working with SMSgts and CMSgts being bossed by the Col getting the mission done.

Sound like almost exactly how our parent service does things.

Okay...now putting my PCR Command SNCO hat on......what I'm asking for from PCR's NCOs is to continue to do what ever job you are currently doing.    I also ask them to become "That Guy".  The guy who when he walks into a staff meeting all members suddenly feel guilty about their uniforms.   The guy who reminds members when and how to salute, how to properly do a "shake, Take, Smile Salute" at the awards banquet.   They guy the squadron commander goes to, to run the change of command ceremony.    To put the USAF blue back into the USAF AUX.

That does not mean to make it Full Metal Jacket....or it too tied up in calling everyone sir/ma'am that CAP is not fun.   But to remind our members that we are the USAF AUX and we are a para military organization.

We also need our NCOs to step up and help out making this NCO Corps a real thing.   We are going to need a lot of SMEs to help us write the NCO training curriculum.   So that when we open it up to non-prior service members.....we do instill the true meaning of what and NCO is.

Okay....[/Rant]

I know what you guys are saying....I am listening......and your concerns are making up to the committee....not just from me but from everyone.   Commanders, PDOs and Personnel Officers at all levels need to be up channeling these concerns up to your wing commander....and up to region.   We are still trying very hard to find people to fill these NCO positions (even if we have not written the job description yet).

We are working on making crossing over to the NCO side more attractive to the non-stripe wearing former NCOs.    Again.....these things take time.     No one is in any hurry to push this down to the squadron level.  No one should be saying "you must appoint an NCO".....we are no where that far down the road.

Thanks for listening.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

sarmed1

#67
As a current stripe wearing NCO (and previous bar wearing CAP person) I have to agree with most here in that I am not seeing the forest thru the trees on this one at this point.    ie how do all of these "NCO" attributes suddenly become diminshed just because I put bars on instead of stripes?   Does someone really listen more to me gripe about their uniform failures or C&C issues because I am an NCO?  I would like to think they listen because I am right, or more specifically because I speak with an air of authority and conviction and generally proffesional bearing; and that shouldnt matter (especially in CAP) if I have stripes, bars or stars.

Now, I get the explanation on making it hearder to become an officer; what else will you do with the rank and file, and if by that "change" you have more enlisted guys, you need senior enlisted positons not only to manage that group, but also for somewhere for them to progress to.  But if you are looking to fix the "customer perception" of why is everyone is a LT or why is that colonel the guy getting coffee, I think they will be just as confused with the 65 year old A1C!

QuoteYou and I both know the amount of time, effort, training and money it costs to produce a quality NCO in the service and let's be honest anyone coming off the street and opting for the enlisted route is not going to have that.

I see plenty of people in the civilian workforce that hold equivilent management postions-they function as small unit leaders-they have a pretty good understanding the dynamics of leadership/followership and are basically SME's at the tactical level.  examples that come to mind: Fire department line officers, Police Cpl's and SGT's,  EMS crew chiefs, ER charge nurses, they all pretty much function as shift supervisors, manage the poeple under them, assign task, problem solve low level issues, etc etc.  I would even say people in the rest of the corporate type world-store and resteraunt managers have pretty much the same type responsabilities.   If these same peple are interested in coming to CAP, those same "management" skills can be put into play as NCO's once they learn and underastand the mission and are technically compentent in the skill sets they are being put into; be it ES, cadet programs or just general program management/staff positions.  (if I can teach a 20 year old "kid" how to be an effective NCO with no experience other than being on the receiveing end of an NCO, I am pretty sure we can do the same thing to a 30 some year old that has already had some basic management experience)  I am not too worried that they wont be able to be "real" NCO's.

MK

Capt.  Mark "K12" Kleibscheidel

lordmonar

No one ever said that former NCO's lose their effectiveness wearing bars (or oak leaves in my case).

That is not really the issue.

If CAP did nothing....it would just continue on as it has for the last 70+ years.   

Creating and NCO corps and and an enlisted corps is not the only answer.....it is just one of them.

We could go with getting away from the whole military model all together....that is one option....not one I like it would change CAP too much IMHO.  We could just make everyone a Flight Officer.....no one wears military rank.
We could make every one a flight officer and only those in command and deputy command positions wear military rank while they hold those positions and revert back to FO status when they step down.

The question is.....how much change do we want to make?

The new NCO program is just a change to the existing program.    Former NCOs can now progress up the ranks.    No change other changes except they are now no longer able to hold command positions.....which at last count was only 1-2 individuals.

As for the concern that the NCO corps will such up the pool of qualified commanders.......simple fix....make them officers.   It's been done before.  :)

I agree.....once again.....there is not a lot of information out there for the rank and file of where this is all going to end.....mainly because we don't really know where it is going to end.    We are making changes, seeing how they work and then deciding from there what step to take next.   Not trying to ram down a total revamped system that screws up everything to hell and back and no way to fix it if we find out it does not work.

Hence the phase system....and the baby steps.

We got a promotion system for NCOs.   

We may just decide to stop there........if we can't find a way to make a workable training program to bring in non-prior services members into the NCO corps....then we have not screwed anything up.  We have just built a way to promote our stripe wearing NCOs.   And if down the road that does not work...we can always just turn it off too without much damage to the organization.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Garibaldi

You know, without Eclipse's input, this thread has lost all meaning  >:D

No, seriously...where is he?
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

FW

Pat, I understand what you are saying; I'm just not buying it.  We, as an organization, have gone down so many dead end roads, I think we need to regroup, rethink, and really form a plan for enlarging and strengthening  the "tent".  IMHO, there is nothing being done to structurally get from here to there. 

Then, again, what do I know...

lordmonar

I think we are strengthening the tent.  Even if we do no more with the NCO program.  We made the already existing NCO program stronger.  That in itself is a good thing. 
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

The14th

What possible incentives could there be to attract former NCOs turned Officers back? Especially if its just different training, less positions, and more "work" to make the switch. Still seems like an unguided mess that I wouldn't want to get mixed up in...and this is coming from someone who LOVED being an Infantry NCO.

lordmonar

Making the switch is easy.   Fill out a form 2 attach a coy if your dd214, promotion orders, or your military ID showing your rank.  And mail it to NHQ.  Easy please.  That has not changed. 

As for incentives.    The idea is say you were an E-5 but are now a CAP Lt Col.   You could get advanced to SMSgt.     

This was an idea that came from the field and presented the committee.   We have not yet approved it.   But it did meet with favor by the members and we are running it up to the CSAG for feedback.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

The14th

So, essentially a downgrade.

RiverAux

Quote from: lordmonar on March 12, 2015, 05:32:14 AM
Our parent service, our non-military customers, and even our own members just don't look at CAP officers as "real" officers. 
And they NEVER EVER WILL no matter what we do to our system.  Even if we were to only allow former military members to become CAP officers, the real military would still just look upon them as civilian volunteers -- because that is what they would be.  We don't get any credit now for having a significant percentage of our adult members having been in the military and that isn't going to change to matter what system we have. 

We shouldn't worry one second what others think of our internal rank system any more so than the Salvation Army does. 

I agree that our promotion system has some major holes in it (almost entirely having to do with advanced promotions).  And I actually wouldn't have a problem with making EVERYONE (even former military Colonels) that joins CAP start at Airman and work their way up a PD track designed for enlisted persons and then move into an entirely separate track for officers (having NCOs and Officers do the same exact classes to promote is just stupid). 

We have to have a system that gives CAP members the knowledge, skills and abilities that CAP needs. 

JeffDG

Quote from: RiverAux on March 12, 2015, 08:19:15 PM
I agree that our promotion system has some major holes in it (almost entirely having to do with advanced promotions). 

And the last rev actually made that problem worse.

One of the few advanced promotions that actually had CAP-relevance was the bump to Captain that Squadron Commanders got after one year as 1st Lts, and they removed that one.

AirAux

Seems a shame that the NCO's are so much in demand, but E-4's and below, not so much.  Kind of a slap in the face for those that served.  Maybe, just maybe those E-4's and below that are now Field Grade won't hold it against the NCO's...  Nahhhh, that wouldn't ever happen...  Good enough to get shot at and killed, but not to be represented in CAP...  Thanks a lot for the pride and honor of service..  Ahhhh, to be an E-5 Garret Trooper...  Spit shined boots, poor old grunt comes in all stinking and dirty..  Some things never change.   

abdsp51

The question that is still yet to be answered.  What are CAP NCOs going to do and bring to the table that cannot be accomplished by current CAP officers? 

The14th

Quote from: abdsp51 on March 12, 2015, 08:55:24 PM
The question that is still yet to be answered.  What are CAP NCOs going to do and bring to the table that cannot be accomplished by current CAP officers?

They'll let you know when the horse shows up.