why does CAP suck??

[capsgt4life]

why is it that the longer i was in CAP the crappier it got? 

[Eclipse]

Attitude?

[NC Hokie]

why is it that the longer i was in CAP the crappier it got? 

Entropy?  You'll have to provide some examples if you want any serious answers.

As an aside, your user name implies that you were content to reach a certain point in the program and then stop.  Have you considered that doing so might have been a part of the problem?

[CASH172]

Perhaps if you gave some details on why you feel this way, we could see and respond to what you're talking about.  Being so brief and with such an attitude does not help get a message across.

Is CAP perfect?  No, but I fail to see the purpose of this thread.

[smj58501]

What did YOU do to get the most out of your CAP experience? If you really think you did everything you could have to take personal responsibility for making it as good as can be, feel free to complain. If you didn't, take some time to assess yourself and what you can still do to make it great.

Appropriate questions start with "How" and "What" and contain an "I". Non productive ones start with "why", "when", and "who" and imply others are more responsible for your success than you are.

Go read the book QBQ! The Question Behind The Question by John G. Miller. After you have done that then come back on here and ask your question

[Al Sayre]

CAP is like most other volunteer organizations, you get out of it what you put into it.  I've always believed that if you want to fix a problem, you have to get close enough to turn the wrench...  If you like an organization overall but have problems in your individual group, then do what you can to become one of the leaders so you can make the changes that you percieve are needed.

[EMT-83]

Al, you stole my thunder!

Personally, the longer I've been in, the experience gets better. I've made friends where the relationship goes beyond just a professional nature, and have seen and done things with my son that his teenage friends don't believe or even understand.

No, CAP isn't perfect. With a little maturity and tolerance, you can look past the crappier parts and enjoy the good stuff.

[Flying Pig]

As long as we continue to recruit from the human race, no organization will ever be without its flaws.

[lordmonar]

I don't think CAP is crappy.....are there problems?  Sure thing....but as everyone has said nothing is perfect.

The point being you focus on your area of expertise, fix what you can, communicate your concerns up the chain of command and just ignore what you can't.

[capchiro]

The crap factor and suckology does not exist.  At least this is what my cadets that have returned from COS, Cessna factory, SUPT, summer encampment, glider encampment, and Blue Beret tell me, but what do they know??  Also, the professionalism and dedication exhibited by volunteer senior members giving their vacation time to organize and run these activities makes me proud to be allowed to associate with this outstanding organization.  As for me and mine, we will continue to serve proudly.  I hope your experience gets better.  In the overall, there is no better opportunity for the unique experience available through CAP.

[Rotorhead]

why is it that the longer i was in CAP the crappier it got? 

For the answer to that, you may want to look in the mirror.

[jimmydeanno]

For the answer to that, you may want to look in the mirror.

On the contrary, perhaps we should be the ones looking in the mirror.  I'm sure that many of us here are from successful units with a bunch of cadets, many of whom go to NCSAs have plenty of activities, etc.  But I can tell you from experience that, unfortunately, this is not representative of the majority of our units nationwide.

Unfortunately we fail miserably with local leadership.  Cadets have nothing to do, or its the same things week in and week out.  With 56,000 members in "over 1500 units nationwide" that divies out to about 37 members per unit.  Subtract HQ units, etc.  What does that give us?  12-18 people in a squadron?  12 that actually show up each week?  Not a good picture huh? 

I look around at some of the units that I've been around and wonder how anyone could possibly want to be at them.  The unit I'm at now had 5 active members when I joined the unit 2 years ago.  Now, we have nearly 70 people at each meeting.  That is the environment people want to be in, not one where there are 10 people (which is "normal" for us).

So, I can completely understand where this member is coming from.  Ignoring it and trying to blame it on the customer isn't how we fix problems.  What we need to do is figure out why we have such horrible local leadership and fix that, not blame the customers.

[MSgt Van]

Perhaps the dreaded "somebody should do something" disease.

[LtCol057]

From what I'm reading, this is a problem in several units nationwide, also in other organizations besides CAP. 

I'm fighting it in my own squadron, sometime feel like it's a losing battle.   I also know 2 things.  1) I can't fight it alone. I have to have help.  2) I can't beat the problem if I don't fight it. If I give up (and there are times when I feel like giving up) I'll never suceed.   

The cadet side of my squadron is growing, slowly, but still growing. But the senior side is a different matter. If anyone has any suggestions how to motivate the seniors, I'm all ears.  At the senior members suggestion, we now have senior/cadet meetings on the same night. But, for the last 3 meetings, we've had a grand total of 1 senior member show up. This doesn't include the 3 that are there to work with the cadets. 

Any suggestions?  Not trying to deviate from the original post. I'll take suggestions for the cadet side too.

[RiverAux]

Some CAP units stink and some don't.  Its like that with every organization.   Some CAP units are great for a while, then go into decline.  Some pull out of that and become great again while others disband.  Thats the way things go.   I know that in my Wing there are apparently only a few units that have been in continuous operation since WWII while in every other town the CAP units have winked in and out two or three times over this period. 

[MIKE]

The cadet program can end up being pretty lame at it's most basic... drill around in circles, AE, ML, test, promote, rinse, repeat.  This can be particularly true for the more junior cadet who is more participant than leader... especially once the "new cadet" novelty wears off.  So, telling some phase 1 cadet to do something about the suckage isn't helping any.

[Rotorhead]

For the answer to that, you may want to look in the mirror.

On the contrary, perhaps we should be the ones looking in the mirror. 

Only if you're in a unit its that "sucks."

The problem I have with the OP is that he (and you) assume that his claim that "CAP sucks" is accurate.

I disagree and suspect that most members would also,---or they'd all be quitting.

Why do you assume that, because one cadet says "CAP sucks," the entire organization is bad?

[jimmydeanno]

Why do you assume that, because one cadet says "CAP sucks," the entire organization is bad?

I don't assume that the entire organization is bad, and I said that in my original response.  However, if you look at what I posted I noted that the MAJORITY of units have under 15 active members.  To me that smacks of an inherent local leadership problem across our entire organization. 

If every unit was as active as mine was there would be 150K members at the local levels, plus whatever HQ units needed.  My cadet commander is "responsible" for 4 times the amount of people than most squadron commanders.  My squadron commander is responsible for nearly 7 times the average squadron.  Why aren't all squadrons like this?  Leadership, plain and simple. 

Cadets can not learn about strategic leadership when they are cadet commander of 5 cadets.  They're element leaders, in reality.  The ES program and AE programs can not be successfully run by 10 people total. 

I do not consider a squadron that has 10-15 members to be successfully completing the CAP mission, regardless of whether than can put two people on a UDF team when needed. 

Why are some units 100 members and other 5?  Chances are, it's because the one with 100 is doing stuff that makes the program not "suck."  The one with 5 obviously isn't doing something right, chances are, it "sucks."  So when the majority of units have 10-15 active members, I wouldn't consider that a national success and can understand why this member would ask why "CAP sucks." - because he(?) probably has not been exposed to the top 5% of units nationwide.

I have visited probably about 50 units in my time in CAP.  I would say that 48 of those weren't very good.  They weren't very active, the cadet program staff didn't provide any activities for the cadets to do, the cadets weren't able to develop their leadership skills, etc. 

As the CAC advisor for my wing I think that 2-3 of our 9 squadrons would actually rate a "Good" or better if I were to grade them. 

So, like I said before, not all units are "bad" and our organization has a fundamental local leadership issue that seriously needs to be addressed.  But, we don't want to admit that, now do we?

[NC Hokie]

Chances are, it's because the one with 100 is doing stuff that makes the program not "suck."

Please share some examples of "stuff that makes the program not suck."  I think my squadron is doing okay in this area but I'm always on the lookout for new ideas.

[jimmydeanno]

It is terribly difficult to point to one specific thing as the key to success.  It really is a combination of a whole bunch of things.  For example...

1) Have a cadet programs staff that is able to be dedicated to the program (duh?).  This seems so obvious, but you see this time and time again.  The CP staff just isn't able to devote the time that the program needs, whether it be outside activities, keeping up with cadet staff training, or even attending weekly meetings.  Many times it just doesn't happen. 

2) Provide a wide variety of activities.  Our unit meetings vary throughout the month, like I think most do. 

We have our PT & Testing night - which typically includes some sort of PT game for about an hour.  This month we played ultimate Frisbee for a bit, last month it was soccer, the month before they did a "PT challenge course." 

Our second meeting we typically have AE lessons.  Currently, we are doing the model rocketry program and should have 30 cadets completing it next month (if all goes to plan).  This coming week we're taking all of our cadets to a local ultra-light fly-in at a local grass strip.  There's also a balloon festival that is coming up that we're going to.  A few months ago, we went to the New England Air Museum for their space day.  We're also averaging about 12-15 O-Flights a month.  We have glider flights coming up.  Add onto this some mid-week activities (since it is summer vacation), we have some KC-135 simulator time twice this month, which will get 20 cadets in.

Our third meeting we have ES stuff.  Last month we had a K-9 team come out and teach us how to work with dog teams, it was great.  The month before that we held an "intro to ES" which covered all the GES requirements, CAPs role in ES, etc.  We've done shelter training and have about 25 of our cadets trained in ARC Shelter Operations and 10 of our seniors as ARC Shelter Managers.  We do ELT training missions during these nights sometimes, so the cadets get to leave the normal meeting place.  During the weekends (at least once per month) we have ES training in the form of a bivouac, or ES classroom environment (in the morning) combined with an ELT training mission in the afternoon.

Our fourth meeting is our Character Development night.  We hold a separate leadership class for the cadet staff that addresses some of the current staff training needs - command voice, how to drill a flight, how to conduct boards of review, dealing with conflict, etc.  The cadets get another leadership lesson that is usually hands on, some sort of team building exercise, etc.  Oh, and our MLO holds the ML lesson.  She's very hands on, gets the cadets involved and is engaging.

If we have extra meetings (5th week) we always plan some sort of activity away from the meeting.  This month we're going to the base logistics readiness squadron so the cadets can do some MOPP drills and see the cool stuff.  Our last one we went to the base firestation and got to play with fire equipment.  Next month (just because) the security forces squadron is going to show the cadets how they do vehicle searches with K-9s, how they handcuff people.  They have a self-defense instructor who is going to put out the mats and show the cadets some of the basic self-defense techniques.  Nothing too violent, but fun none-the-less.

We even squeeze some hiking in here and there.

So you can see that we're very active.  In the last 25 weekends, we've had 23 activities, all varying in nature.  We don't get every cadet to attend everything, but there is something for everyone.  We also don't set the expectation that everyone be able to attend everything.  So, the parents are happy, the cadets think the stuff is cool.  It's a good time.

3) Understand the balance between "cadet run" and "cadet run."  As a DCC the success of the cadet program really lies with me, so it is my responsibility to make sure that our training needs are met, activities are being provided, etc.  I see many units in which nothing happens unless the cadets do it and the CP staff are WAY to laissez-faire.  Then there is the exact opposite where the cadets do nothing and the CP staff does everything.

You can't leave recruiting and retention ultimately up to the cadets.  You can't leave training and instruction ultimately up to the cadets.  While it may be a leadership immersion program, they still need leadership and help from people with experience.  Which leads to point #4.

4) Have an experienced CP staff.  IME, some new guy off the street who "wants to work with cadets" isn't the ideal person to have running your cadet program.  The cadet's parent who just volunteers to work with the cadets because "it'll be fun" isn't the ideal person to run things either. 

Ideally you'd have at least two master rated CP people (who have been active in running the CP in the last decade) and a couple of people with lesser ratings who are learning the ropes.  Right now, I'm the only master rated CP officer in my unit and I have 12 years working in the cadet program.  The others have a senior rating and a technician rating and there's a new guy who is just getting his feet wet.  OJT with a senior advisor, the way things are "supposed" to work.

I also think it is vitally important to be selective in those you allow to work with the cadets.  I have no time or patience for anyone who wants to work with cadets to "teach them some discipline," or to "show them the old guy can put them to shame in PT."  I also have no desire to have anyone who wants to work with them to stroke their own egos.  Down to earth, compassionate, understanding people who have a good understanding of what "leadership" is, are good with me.

We also don't allow seniors to "interfere" with what the cadets are doing because they think they're doing something wrong (unless the "wrong" means walking into a prop,etc.)  I've seen people who learned how to do color guard in 1948 yell at cadets because they didn't do something "the Army way" when it is in direct contradiction to what our training manuals say.  I don't have the time or patience for people that do that and it isn't conducive to our training environment.

5) Have a good relationship with the cadets.  We are mentors, leaders, advisors, role models, etc.  Any one of my cadets can talk to me without any fear of retribution, judgment, etc.  From the lowliest of basics to the cadet commander, all talk to me about their lives, difficulties they're having, etc.  This doesn't mean that the chain of command is broken or that I fix their cut-outs for them - but I play an active role in my cadets lives.  Even though we have ~40 active cadets (and growing), I still know what they need to do for their promotions, how many times they've failed a test, their average mile time, etc.   

They know I'm "in charge" but it isn't something that I feel the need to push around, it doesn't work that way. 

I find that one of the biggest areas you can make this point come across is in BORs.  Our unit (when I joined it) had the all too common question drilling session with the cadet sitting at attention for 15 minutes.  The "radical" shift to what is prescribed in 52-16 has made a huge difference in the relationship between our cadets and staff members and cadet staff.  Staff members aren't regarded as some almighty unaproachable person, but instead, someone who can help. 

6) Listen to the cadets.  They do have a lot of insight into what they like to/want to do.  Every three months or so I ask the cadet staff what they'd like to do coming up.  This is when they give me some of their upcoming goals (which they're getting pretty good at BTW).  We then design our activities around those.  Some of them are as simple as "we'd like to go to the firestation."  Some are a little more difficult, "Train 10 GTM-2 cadets by XXXX."  But, we work with them. 

I mean, we can go on and on for hours about the recipe for success, but when it comes down to it, it is really a comprehensive thing that "just works" when it works.  The recipe book is already out there in 52-16, the CAPP 216 and the new various tools produced by NHQ. 

I mean, where we are right now we haven't had a recruiting event in a year (although we have one coming up), but we typically have at least 1 or 2 people who show up to every meeting interested in joining now.  I have 8 potential cadets who have shown up in the last 3 weeks.  The cadets are brining their buddies, people are tracking us down on base to get their kid involved because they see us around.  There are about 5, 11 year olds waiting to turn twelve who want to join in the next few months. 

I have a hunch that in the next 3 months or so, we'll be at around 52-57 cadets with about 50 at any given meeting.  I'm not going to settle there though, there are a lot more kids who can benefit from our program.

So just remember that success breeds success and local leadership is the key to a successful program.  Every unit can be successful if the local leadership is willing to put in the time and work it needs. 

[jimmydeanno]

Ah, here we go.  Since many times it is easier to point out what makes CAP "suck"...

This is an actual response from a cadet who left the program shortly after joining. 

The question: Is there anything that your squadron could have done differently to meet your needs?

The adults could have participated in a leadership role. They sat in their Adult only lounge and only came out for a few minutes of the meeting. There was no structure to the program for how we were to proceed or what units to study next with scheduled test dates. It's like they wanted it for their resumes only & by being present that somehow made it okay for them to just ignore the new cadets who were trying to become involved.

I couldn't participate in a lot of the activities because I wasn't advanced enough in the phases, but no one helped me with a plan to achieve them! I was promised that I would receive direction & support & have an aviation experience within the first year.. none of which happened. It was like the cadet officers were playing soldier & enjoyed drilling us, but not teaching or mentoring us.

It was a large unit with lots of new cadets when I joined & everyone dropped out because it was boring & we were tired of being yelled at during the only activity, physical fitness drills.. there was no point or direction to it. I was really saddened by this. Our unit was located on the base & I was very interested in the Air Force as something in my future.. not any more!

My grandfather was in the Air Force & my Great Grandfather was a civil air patrolman.. this was a very disappointing experience for me & my family.. I learned NOTHING. Really sad, because the first (and only test) that I took, I scored the highest out of all cadets.. I wanted more & no one would mentor me. The adults were all really lazy about this & the officers were on a power trip.. we should have been a unit, not separated by egos.

or this one, same question:

Be better organized, and not let large, incompetent families take over the squadron with no knowledge of what to do and putting their kids in posistions that they weren't qualified for where there were better options

or this one:

Been more responsive to feedback and questions; have more adult leadership -- the kids were floundering.

or these:

The squadron has a habit of promising activities (trips, bivouacs, etc.) and then just delaying them for months until they don't happen.

Grew out of it. Everything seemed to be the same. Same thing every meeting, same thing every mission. My squadron was great but very repetative and got boring really quickly.

Too much drama within the wing.

Not interested in CAP politics.

This quote relates directly to what we are talking about here, the disparity between units:

CAP was the best thing, when I lived in XX. Now that I am in XX it sucks. The first squadron I went to got shut down after I attended a few meetings. The second (In XX) had three other cadets; a C/CC, C/Flight Commander and a C/Flight Sergeant. That's what they called themselves. How does that even make sense? The highest was a chief so he should of only been a Flight Sergeant, the other two should of not been other high positions but in the "flight" (more of a half element really). Then the third I went to in XX was basically the definition of SNAFU. I was made C/CC, then the only other sergeant was made C/DC. I said that there should be a C/Flight sergeant, then in flight cadets because there where enough airman and basics. Well no we had a C/CC, C/DC and then a bunch of random new kids. After going two months there were cadets that came to a meeting the first time in two months (at least) and claimed they come all the time. What is up with that.

Well anyways if XX can come up with a better cadet program I will re-new my membership, until then you guys loose my $36 dollars or what ever it is a year plus my two encampments.

The largest percentage of why cadets did not renew their membership was cited as "Poor Squadron Leadership."

It really does sadden me because I know personally what this program can offer and what it does offer. 

[RedFox24]

To follow up on what Jimmy has said

This is part of a report that I made to the wing when I stepped down as DCP.  I made this report to the wing last July. 

Of cadets who have dropped out in the last two years.........

•   52% of the cadets who dropped out in the last two years where between the age of 16 and 18.  (remember this as you read on)
•   45% had been members of CAP for 2 years or more. 
•   28% had earned their Billy Mitchell Award and 48% had at least completed Phase I. 
•   35% said that their weekly meetings were not organized enough
•   71% said that the cost of participating in CAP was "Just Right, not to high or to low"
•   70% said that they enjoyed their meetings.
•   48% said that there weren't enough activities held at their local squadron.
•   59% said that they enjoyed orientation flights the most of any activity, Encampments were 46%.
•   86% said that their parents were proud of their involvement in the CAP program.
•   46% did not renew because they could not attend meetings of this 46% who did not renew, 53% had full or part time jobs, 36% were involved in Church or Religious groups or activities and 35% were involved in sports or school activities (or a combination of the three, they got to pick more than one).
•   **43% listed other reasons for not renewing.  This group appeared to be involved in the same three primary activities as the group who could not attend meetings, however they listed that they did not renew because they were not followed up on by their units.  In other words, they had jobs or school activities and were not called or checked on by their squadron.  This group indicated that they would have renewed had they been followed up on or been reminded to renew. 

Lack of Adult leadership and structure at the local squadron was the main reason for cadets to quit. 

The quotes in Jimmys Post are accurate as to why cadets say CAP sucks.

And for Seniors it's the CAP Politics.........that makes CAP "CrAP".

[Rotorhead]

And for Seniors it's the CAP Politics.........that makes CAP "CrAP".

If you know of a way to get rid of the politics, by all means, post it.

Volunteer organizations around the world would love to hear it, because it exists everywhere, not just in CAP. In many organizations, it is much more pervasive.

[RedFox24]

And for Seniors it's the CAP Politics.........that makes CAP "CrAP".

If you know of a way to get rid of the politics, by all means, post it.

Volunteer organizations around the world would love to hear it, because it exists everywhere, not just in CAP. In many organizations, it is much more pervasive.

Rotor,

Of the volunteer organizations I am a member of or involved with it is there also, cant disagree there. 

But I must disagree and say that it is 10X in CAP compared to the other organizations I belong to and participate in.  There was a time 20 years ago that it was pretty bad and those people slowly left the program and things were pretty good for a while. Now I would say it is worse than then.  That is my opinion and yours may differ.

I dont have a solution either...........other than to fight it at every appearance it makes.  But then that makes you political...........