Cadet and Senior Meeting Alone

[captrncap]

I know that I will be opening a "can of worms" but....

If a Cadet and Senior meet outside of a regular squadron meetings in civilian clothes for the purpose of discussing CAP related issues (staff selections, schedules, etc.), is that against the reqs.

If so, where because I can't seem to find it.

I feel that another Senior Member should be present because they are talking about CAP even if this is not an "official" activity.

[SarDragon]

Well, where does it say that you must have two SMs present in the first place?

[Eclipse]

I would say that this would be up to the interpretation of the respective unit commander.

(WEAR) participating in or conducting the cadet program

My personal interpretation regarding your sketchy scenario would be that a uniform would not be required, as discussing or planning for the program is not necessarily "participating or conducting the program".  However as with any interpretation, YMMV.

Further, to clear up some wives tales related to this:

Only one senior member is required to be present during CAP activities.

There is no connection between the gender of the senior or cadets in the above circumstance.

Two seniors are required during any overnight activities, however again there is no gender requirements or prohibitions.

There are no prohibitions regarding a senior and cadet transporting, or participating in an activity alone.

Now, with that said, YMMV if the wing, group, or unit has a specific policy in the above regard, and of course there are plenty of CYA and common sense caveats to the above.

[Cobra1597]

One thing to remember is that technically speaking, there is no requirement that two senior members be present at a non-overnight cadet activity.

d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

Emphasis mine.

Cadet Protection Policy only requires two approved seniors for an overnight. It does not require two the rest of the time, it just strongly encourages/suggests it, and explains why you would be stupid not to do it.

In terms of what you are discussing, it all comes down to this, is it a CAP activity? Sure, you aren't wearing a uniform, but you are there to discuss "CAP stuff", you are there as a superior officer and them as a cadet (uniformed or not, that would seem to be the roles you are holding), it sounds an awful lot like a CAP activity to me. For your own safety (and that of the cadet), I'd have someone else present. It is enough of a "gray" in terms of being a CAP activity that you could probably get away with it being a parent, or something.

EDIT: Well, when I started typing this no one had responded yet, but at least I win the reg quoting award 

[davedove]

A lot depends on the situation.  It would, of course, be best if there were either another senior or cadet present.  Where the meeting occurs makes a difference too.  If they were meeting at a public place and arrived separately, that probably wouldn't be a big deal.  If they met at the senior's home, that is a whole different ballgame.

[Duke Dillio]

Quick note here.  Check your regional and wing publications.  I know that in at least two wings that I have been in, they require two seniors for any activity involving cadets.  I have also seen supplements which strongly suggest at least one be female if there are female cadets involved.  This is just really a CYA thing but it is always better to be safe than sorry.

[jimmydeanno]

This may sound like common sense - but - I would suggest notifying the cadet's parents that you are meeting with them - alone - outside of CAP to discuss CAP things.

[Pylon]

Not intentionally arranging a one-on-one cadet/senior scenario is not about complying with CPP requirements or being PC, it's entirely about covering your own behind.  It adds a layer of protection against allegations, which even if false could ruin a person's CAP career (and potentially much more).  In most every circumstance, I'd recommend against it for a list of reasons.  If it's a planning meeting and you're meeting with the Cadet Commander, consider inviting the Deputy Cadet Commander or another one of your support senior members or another member of your squadron command staff.  One senior member and two cadets is still better than one-on-one, alone.

[mikeylikey]

^  Wow I made the same suggestion about a year ago in a similar thread and was bashed about "thinking only of senior members" and making all cadets out to be "devious liars and troublemakers".

I agree with Mike above and add......PROTECT YOURSELF!

[Pylon]

^  Wow I made the same suggestion about a year ago in a similar thread and was bashed about "thinking only of senior members" and making all cadets out to be "devious liars and troublemakers".

I agree with Mike above and add......PROTECT YOURSELF!

I also think that SM's covering their own doesn't even mean that we suspect that the cadet you're meeting with would be apt to make an allegation.  It could be a parent or even a third party who throws the allegation out there.  All is takes is for the IG to get a report from some CAP member or parent saying "I know SM Shmoe has been meeting alone with Cadet Slick and they're having inappropriate relations!"   You can both deny it, but it helps to have a third person present to back up those claims.

It may be sad that you need to think of these things, but it also presents a professional image and leaves little room for doubt or worry from others.  Always a good thing.

[Duke Dillio]

I'd quickly add that if you are the CC of the squadron and are meeting with the cadet commander, you might want to invite your leadership officer.  If you are the leadership officer, ask for the DCC.  As stated above, it is about protecting your behind.  I'd rather pay for someone else's meal, if you are meeting at an eating establishment, rather than suffer the possibility of CAP career death with an unwarranted allegation.  Hopefully noone takes this the wrong way, but if you are a male SM and you are meeting with a female cadet, definately have someone else there.  False allegations, while false, are still way bad....

[notaNCO forever]

Being it is not a CAP activities and if its in a public place there should be no issue. However for any CAP activity I would never have less then three people alone.

[SWASH]

I think meeting outside of CAP at a house, ect. to talk about CAP planning is perfectly fine.  It is getting more done, of which could not be done because of limited time.  If staff and the DCC wants to get together, have some pizza, and talk about next week...well I'll bring the popcorn.

[DC]

The way we rule it is if there are no uniforms then it is not a CAP activity. Our cadet staff meets with the DCC about once a month for lunch/staff meeting. We keep it informal, and I think it really allows us to communicate more freely. I see no problem with a senior and cadet meeting, as long as it is in a public place, or there is someone else present, like a parent....

[Eclipse]

The way we rule it is if there are no uniforms then it is not a CAP activity.

Unfortunately, that is not how it works, though many members, especially cadets, choose to try and justify things using this filter.

Our cadet staff meets with the DCC about once a month for lunch/staff meeting. We keep it informal, and I think it really allows us to communicate more freely. I see no problem with a senior and cadet meeting, as long as it is in a public place, or there is someone else present, like a parent....

Then you're not meeting alone, are you?  In which case its not really part of this conversation.

Also, the majority of the liability risk in these cases is to the seniors and the corporation, so whether cadets think its ok is part of the problem.

[flyguy06]

Quick note here.  Check your regional and wing publications.  I know that in at least two wings that I have been in, they require two seniors for any activity involving cadets.  I have also seen supplements which strongly suggest at least one be female if there are female cadets involved.  This is just really a CYA thing but it is always better to be safe than sorry.

What if you have no female Senior Members in your Squadron? Do you deny the female cadets to participate?

[Eclipse]

^no.

These are CYA suggestions, not rules.  If you don't have female seniors, you just don't.

[SJFedor]

The best suggestion is to never, never, NEVER have a 1:1 meeting, ESPECIALLY at someone's house.

If there's the C/CC, C/DC, C/1SG, C/FC, and C/FC having an informal staff meeting/lunch with the Unit/CC, Unit/DCC, and the Unit Leadership Officer, that's fine. But just having the DCC hanging w/ the C/CC 1 on 1 should really be frowned upon, especially if it's not in an absolutely public venue.

[Eclipse]

^Agree - it turns CAP into a social club or a rec center, which it is neither.

I know there are those of you who feel differently / had good experiences, etc., but in my personal experience, the seniors who do not build a noticeable barrier (both literal and figurative) between themselves and the cadets do not understand their role and tend to place themselves in compromising positions on a regular basis.

[mikeylikey]

From AF Times today......

An Air Force JROTC instructor in South Carolina was charged Monday with sexually abusing a cadet in his Air Force Junior Reserve Officers Training Corps unit.

Master Sgt. Maxie Carroll Miller, a retired airman, was hired as an instructor at Broome High School in Spartanburg, S.C., 18 months ago, according to the Air Force. He was arrested Jan. 21 after a female cadet in his unit reported to police Miller had groped and kissed her at the high school.

According to an incident report by the Spartanburg County Sheriff's Office, Miller asked the girl to help him in his office the morning of Jan. 18 while the other cadets lifted weights. Miller then tried to kiss the girl and groped her while the girl resisted.

As the girl was leaving the office, Miller told her that if she told any authorities about the incident, he would deny it, the report stated. The girl reported the incident to police Jan. 20 after speaking with her family about it.

Miller was charged with one count of assault with intent to commit criminal sexual conduct. He initially denied the allegations of misconduct, but later failed a polygraph test and "partially confessed" in a written statement, the report said.

Miller faced an initial hearing Jan. 21 and was released on bond. His case is pending and will likely take one to three years to resolve, according to Murray Glenn, spokesman for the county solicitor.
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NEVER, EVER, EVER MEET a CADET ALONE!  Protect your ass, get a second ADULT (not an 18 year old Cadet, but an ADULT Senior Member or non-cap person) to be your back-up.  For all intents, the cadet referenced in the article could be lying, but there is no way to prove innocence for the adult concerned. 

There is NO reason to ever meet a Cadet Alone.  Even in a counseling or mentoring session, call a second person in. 

Even in the military, I would NEVER meet a subordinate alone.  If no one else is around, I move the meeting to a more public venue.  I understand that there can be very personal issues involved when dealing with enlisted soldiers (family problems, legal problems etc), so I make it a point to ask for the chaplain, JAG to be present with the soldiers permission of course.  I am going to protect myself first!  I have heard too many times when soldiers have filed harassment, sexual, discrimination complaints against their Officers, after the Officer "came down on them" or busted them for doing something wrong.

Just my advice to everyone, don't set yourself up to get accused of something you did not do.

[Eclipse]

Unfortunately, the "not alone" rule has basically been adopted by corporate managers as well, with good reason.

[IceNine]

Its a simple reality that we live in today... Everyone wants their 15 minutes of fame, Oodels of money, and they want to do it from their laptop.  Which means they'll use the www.internetlawsuitsR'us.com website to get their name all over the papers

One of the very first things I did when I took over as DCC in my unit was write into policy that their shall be 2 seniors during every gathering of more than 2 members of our unit.

So, 2 seniors meeting is fine
2 cadets, 1 cadet-1senior is not...

And I specifically wrote that business outside of weekly meetings involving cadets is to be coordinated through myself or the CC no exceptions and the penalties are harsh.

And the reason is stories like the one above do happen in real life. 

Even if they're crying wolf, when it comes to abuse of any type you are guilty until proven innocent.

There was a case a few years ago of a gent that was accused of inappropriate actions with a minor, within 3 days he was suspended as unit CC in CAP, put on admin leave at work, asked to resign from his teaching position at the red cross and his wife left....

All to find out she was lying the whole time

[Ned]

From AF Times today......

An Air Force JROTC instructor in South Carolina was charged Monday with sexually abusing a cadet in his Air Force Junior Reserve Officers Training Corps unit. (. . .)
Miller was charged with one count of assault with intent to commit criminal sexual conduct. He initially denied the allegations of misconduct, but later failed a polygraph test and "partially confessed" in a written statement, the report said.


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NEVER, EVER, EVER MEET a CADET ALONE!  Protect your ass, get a second ADULT (not an 18 year old Cadet, but an ADULT Senior Member or non-cap person) to be your back-up.  For all intents, the cadet referenced in the article could be lying, but there is no way to prove innocence for the adult concerned. 

By all means do not exceed your personal comfort level when meeting with cadets.

There is certainly no requirement that you meet privately with a cadet.

(Although it would certainly make some orientation flights interesting.)

But if the cadet in the article was totally fabricating the event, it sure was silly for the service member to make damaging admissions in his partial confession.  It was even sillier for him to take a polygraph and flunk it.

But of course, all we know is what some reporter wrote.





We've talked about this before.

You seem to feel that cadets are conspiring to get rich off of foolish senior members who are silly enough to work with them one-on-one by making totally false allegations of inappropriate conduct, or worse.

Fortunately, most seniors use a common sense approach.  And from time to time, that may include mentoring a cadet or working with them one-on-one in otherwise appropriate situations.

There is NO reason to ever meet a Cadet Alone.  Even in a counseling or mentoring session, call a second person in. 

(. . .)  I am going to protect myself first!  (. . .)

Just my advice to everyone, don't set yourself up to get accused of something you did not do.

Like I said, you are certainly free to help cadets while focused solely on protecting your own butt.

But you might be more comfortable working in a part of CAP where you have less frequent contact with cadets, so you will stop treating them like they were an IED.

[mikeylikey]

^ Doesn't everyone live life with the feeling that everyone is out to get each other?  Maybe that is just me.   

[jimmydeanno]

so you will stop treating them like they were an IED.

[Nathan]

I don't think the advice here should be, "Don't EVER EVER EVER have a cadet/senior one-on-one meeting alone EVER!" I think the advice should rather be, "Do so at your own risk, and realize that if you're wrong about the cadet/senior in question, then there could be problems. If it's a minor, parental permission is necessary."

I meet with my Squadron Commander to discuss squadron meetings at coffee shops, and meet with my Leadership Officer for breakfast before starting recruiting campaigns. I trust both of them, and they trust me, and there really haven't been any problems.

That being said, I'm also not a minor, and my parents pretty much trust me to take care of myself. If a minor is involved, then parents need to know.

If anything, this is a highly-individual situation, and not something which can really be solved with a blanket answer.

[Al Sayre]

You have to be careful with the "never ever" statements, there is an exception to every rule... 

How about the Seniors that have children in the program?  What are they going to do, kick the kids out of the house or quit CAP?  My daughter is the Cadet Deputy Commander at our squadron, we discuss CAP stuff at home quite frequently. 

[brasda91]

I know that I will be opening a "can of worms" but....

If a Cadet and Senior meet outside of a regular squadron meetings in civilian clothes for the purpose of discussing CAP related issues (staff selections, schedules, etc.), is that against the reqs.

If so, where because I can't seem to find it.

I feel that another Senior Member should be present because they are talking about CAP even if this is not an "official" activity.

I don't think I've ever seen a reg that says you can't meet outside of your regular meetings.  Years past, we did it all the time.  The staff (cadets and seniors), in civilian clothes, would meet at someone's house and plan out the next couple months meetings.

If your staff has the time available, I say go for it.  It helps keep the squadron on track.

[DC]

One of the very first things I did when I took over as DCC in my unit was write into policy that their shall be 2 seniors during every gathering of more than 2 members of our unit.

That is a bit absurd. I am good friends with several cadets in my squadron outsode of CAP, and if I take your regulation correctly we could not even do something as simple as go to the mall without two SMs following us around..

There needs to be a limit on how much CAP regs affect members personal lives beyond CAP...

Insert Quote 
Quote from: sargrunt on November 28, 2007, 08:10:41 AM
Quick note here.  Check your regional and wing publications.  I know that in at least two wings that I have been in, they require two seniors for any activity involving cadets.  I have also seen supplements which strongly suggest at least one be female if there are female cadets involved.  This is just really a CYA thing but it is always better to be safe than sorry.

What if you have no female Senior Members in your Squadron? Do you deny the female cadets to participate?

My Squadron CC does mandate that there be a female SM present at all overnight activities.. We have two or three female SMs, but none of them have any interest in the Cadet Program. So, essentially, our female cadets cannot go to any of the overnight (read: fun) activities. It really sucks, because we get girls to signup, and they leave the program as soon as they find out they cannot participate fully because our CC is paranoid.

I understand the possible ramifications of having one or two female cadets at an activity with 10 - 15 male cadets and SMs, but there are measures that can be taken to limit it, have seperate tent areas (a long way away from each other, and cadets cannot enter the sleeping area of the opposite sex. We can provide seperate bathroom facilities even... It seems like such a waste to me, to turn away potentially good cadets because we are afraid that one of them might decide to start making false accusations...

[mikeylikey]

^ I don't think there is anything written that says your Senior Member chaperons need to be female if there are female Cadets present.  That is absurd that they can't go.  I think that your unit is just making sure that activities are "boys only", and I would bet that it has something to do with the leadership and their "boy's club" mentality. 

I suggest you allow female Cadets to attend SQD activities, that is a HUGE discrimination lawsuit waiting to happen.  (Anyone here that knows that SQD Commander should make a phone call to them, and see what the deal is) 

Also, you referenced the above post about 2 Senior Members being present when members meet together.  I think that poster was referring to when 2 members meet together for SQD meetings or Activities, not socially outside of CAP.