In which our squadron presents the colors...

[Holding Pattern]

I thought the picture was pretty awesome. Figured I'd share.

[Pylon]

Nice photo and nice color guard!  :clap:

[NIN]

Wow that's really cool

[Cadet12354]

Amazing picture.  Although I can see a few things wrong with the color guard, it overall makes a great impression, since any problems are nothing the audience would notice.  The military bearing looks great, the spacing is good, and it looks like the crowd is focused on the color guard (as they should be).  Overall, that color guard is a credit to CAP.

How many people were in attendance?

[Mitchell 1969]

Amazing picture.  Although I can see a few things wrong with the color guard, it overall makes a great impression, since any problems are nothing the audience would notice.  The military bearing looks great, the spacing is good, and it looks like the crowd is focused on the color guard (as they should be).  Overall, that color guard is a credit to CAP.

How many people were in attendance?

Aha, I knew patience would pay off. Sure enough, here is the eagerly anticipated "...a few things wrong..." post.

Please feel free to list them.

[NIN]

Although I can see a few things wrong with the color guard

<Jedi mind trick>
No, you don't
<Jedi mind trick>

There isn't anything wrong. They're presenting the colors at a major sporting event. Let them enjoy it. Let the crowd enjoy it. Let -us- enjoy it.

[Luis R. Ramos]

If there really are things wrong, they are too far away for us to notice. Let them enjoy the moment. Were you there to see their technique? No? Then please cool it...

[Cadet12354]

If there really are things wrong, they are too far away for us to notice. Let them enjoy the moment. Were you there to see their technique? No? Then please cool it...

Cool it?  What is that supposed to mean?  In addition to saying that I saw a few mistakes, I also said

Amazing picture.  Although I can see a few things wrong with the color guard, it overall makes a great impression, since any problems are nothing the audience would notice.  The military bearing looks great, the spacing is good, and it looks like the crowd is focused on the color guard (as they should be).  Overall, that color guard is a credit to CAP.

I was saying how good they looked.  I can't say something is 100% wonderful and perfect if it isn't, but if it looks amazing and is a credit to CAP, I will say it.  And I did.
And about their technique?  I did not see a video, but I can see what is in the picture.  And, I know what I am talking about, because I use the USAF Drill manual as a reference.  I never said that they did a bad job.  I said they did a great job.  I don't believe I have ever seen a perfect color guard, but this one is excellent.

If there really are things wrong, they are too far away for us to notice.

I specially noted that the audience cannot see any mistakes.  However, the people seeing the picture can see something wrong--the rifles are both in right shoulder, even though the USAF (and thus, CAP) has one rifle in right shoulder and one in left shoulder.  One person mentioned to me that it looks like they might be at Port.  That, too, would not be correct.  But, as long as they have good military bearing and make no huge mistakes (like dropping the American flag, which hopefully they did not), they are a credit to CAP.

There isn't anything wrong. They're presenting the colors at a major sporting event. Let them enjoy it. Let the crowd enjoy it. Let -us- enjoy it.

I showered praise upon them.  I said that they are a credit to CAP.  And, as for "There isn't anything wrong," I have actually reached a conclusion about that: after doing a lot of color guards, some of which had many thousands of people watching, I have concluded that any color guard that went perfectly, without a single hitch, is made up.  This conclusion is supported by a USAF Honor Guardsman with over 20 years of experience.  He said that every time, there will be something... all we can do is practice so that something isn't big.
I wish people weren't so quick to assume that others are trying to stir up controversy.  As I previously stated, I have done a lot of color guards.  Some of them were in front of many thousands of people.  If everyone had just said how wonderful we were, I would think that we were actually pretty bad and that people just didn't want to say.  But, if people had pointed out some small problems, it would bring me comfort that the things which were wrong were not major.
But truly, if doing right shoulder on both sides is the color guard's biggest problem, they are an amazing color guard.  I would like to reiterate that I love that picture and I think it is a great representation of CAP.
On another note, would there be any problem if I used that picture for recruiting materials?

[THRAWN]

It was a series of backhanded compliments. "They looked good but..." is not a compliment. As to your assertions about the handling of rifles and the Color Guard Manual of Arms, cite your source. Anecdotal evidence won't count.

[lordmonar]

Cadet12354.....sorry.  But you did not shower praise on them.

You Lead with

Amazing picture.  Although I can see a few things wrong with the color guard

You should have stopped after the first period.

[LSThiker]

However, the people seeing the picture can see something wrong--the rifles are both in right shoulder, even though the USAF (and thus, CAP) has one rifle in right shoulder and one in left shoulder.  One person mentioned to me that it looks like they might be at Port.  That, too, would not be correct.

They are not at port arms as you can see both left arms on the guards.

Cadet12354, please see CAPM 52-4 Figure 12-6.  What do you notice on the picture?

Edit:  Yes I know they remove the old NCC guide, but it is still an excellent guide for CAP color guards. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Cadet,

Once you have participated in Color Guards you will be on a position to criticize.

Once you have trained Color Guards you will be in a position to criticize.

In my almost 14 years of CAP service I have trained a Color Guard. I have seen countless presentations of Color Guards.

You say they are at "Port Arms which is wrong."

It shows you do not know the Drill Manual you purport to live by. The position they are is Right Shoulder Arms. Like I said, you do not know the entire procedure they go thru since this is not a video but a photo!

Did you even stop to think they are in that little pause before they switch to Present Arms? A few seconds after, both rifles come to the front and other Flags are dipped... That is why...

OMG! The rifles are still at Right Shoulders and the CAP flag is still up!

When you laud, you do not criticize! That is what I meant by "Cool it!"

Color Guard of the Federal Protective Service. The rifles are both on the right side. Are they wrong?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_guard#/media/File:FPS_color_guard.jpg

[THRAWN]

Cadet,

Once you have participated in Color Guards you will be on a position to criticize.

Once you have trained Color Guards you will be in a position to criticize.

In my almost 14 years of CAP service I have trained a Color Guard. I have seen countless presentations of Color Guards.

You say they are at "Port Arms which is wrong."

It shows you do not know the Drill Manual you purport to live by. The position they are is Right Shoulder Arms. Like I said, you do not know the entire procedure they go thru since this is not a video but a photo!

Did you even stop to think they are in that little pause before they switch to Present Arms? A few seconds after, both rifles come to the front and other Flags are dipped... That is why... OMG! The rifles are still at Right Shoulders and the CAP flag is still up!

When you laud, you do not criticize! That is what I meant by "Cool it!"

Color Guard of the Federal Protective Service. The rifles are both on the right side. Are they wrong?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_guard#/media/File:FPS_color_guard.jpg

Forget the FPS, he used the example of the USAF HG. Use the Google and take a look at those images. Port arms, right shoulder...oh the horror....

Like you, I've been on them, trained them, evaluated them, etc, and he should cool it. Hopefully with the last few posts, he got the message.

To the OP, awesome. Not only a great pic, but a great experience. That seems to be getting overlooked here.

[Cadet12354]

It was a series of backhanded compliments. "They looked good but..." is not a compliment. As to your assertions about the handling of rifles and the Color Guard Manual of Arms, cite your source. Anecdotal evidence won't count.

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/afman3622031_7A853B1DF6091.pdf
That is the USAF Drill and Ceremonies manual.  Look at Figure 7.10, Position of Flags at the Carry.

And what do you mean by, "a series of backhanded compliments"?  I did not say "They look good, but."  I said that it is a credit to CAP.  I don't give many CAP-related complements higher than that one.  I said that their military bearing looks great.  I said that their spacing is good (and anyone who had done a lot of color guard will know that spacing is hard to get right; saying the spacing looks good is actually a big complement).  I said that it looks like the crowd is focused on the color guard, which is pretty good, since the crowd (and lighting crew) will often ignore color guards.
Yes, I did say that there were a few things wrong.  But, I also said that it makes a good impression.  That is not backhanded.  As I attempted to explain, if people were telling me what a great color guard I was in, and no one mentioned anything wrong, I would think they were trying pretend that they liked it.
If I ever tell a lot of good points but just one or two bad points, like I did, that does not mean that I'm trying to be nit-picky.  It means that I'm impressed, and I think the color guard is very good; good enough to handle it.  If I had not liked it, I would have said nothing about it.
Just for the record, I think that color guard did an excellent job, at least from what I can see in the picture.  I would greatly appreciate it if people would please stop assuming that I am being overly critical.  I really, truly do not see how anyone could have gotten that from what I posted.  Before I posted, I read it over and over to try to prevent that.  However, I suppose that I still wrote it in a way that can be misinterpreted, so I apologize for that.  I meant only to say that it is every bit as good and any other CAP color guard that I have seen, and much better than some.  I was trying to say that the pros way outweigh any cons.  I was trying to say that I like that color guard; from what I can see of the picture.  I also was saying that I liked the photo; the lighting is amazing.  So, to clear the record, that is one of the best CAP color guard pictures I have ever seen.  Any problems are incidental; practically meaningless.  That picture shows a CAP color guard performing well; better than most others that I have seen.  I would seriously appreciate it if people would not try to say that I was being negative; I was not trying to.  I explained it, but I guess not well enough.  I apologize for writing anything that might have confused people.

And, another thing that I might have confused people with: I never said that anyone was at Port.  I said that someone else said what it looked like.  I said

the rifles are both in right shoulder, even though the USAF (and thus, CAP) has one rifle in right shoulder and one in left shoulder. One person mentioned to me that it looks like they might be at Port.

I could tell what it looked like; but I was trying to cover all of the bases just in case.  I guess I didn't do it well enough.
Please, please stop misunderstanding me.  I think the color guard looks great, but I do not think it is true praise to just say that, because of experience I have had with color guards.  I truly do not understand how anyone could have gotten anything else from it.  I guess I just worded things wrong.  If this is the case, please understand that I did not mean to leave a negative impression.  I liked the picture, and the color guard represented CAP and the USA with dignity and pride.

[THRAWN]

Pretty sure that CAP is not the Air Force...take a look in the CAP regs and manuals that govern color guards.

[THRAWN]

I liked the picture, and the color guard represented CAP and the USA with dignity and pride.

If you said that and left it there, none of this would be happening.

[C/Cool]

Cadet12345, please take the INSTRUCTIVE criticism and leave it at that. You defending your point is really making yourself and this thread look bad.

Everybody else, this thread is supposed to be about this color guard. Why can't we congratulate them and stop carrying on the arguments? If you have something negative to say to someone please say it in a PM. Negative post degrade the whole point of the original post. I do realize we are only trying to help someone out here but, could we do it more discreetly?

Thanks, and that is my two cents worth

[Cadet12354]

Pretty sure that CAP is not the Air Force...take a look in the CAP regs and manuals that govern color guards.

We use the USAF drill manual for everything else.  Why would we yank out the section on color guard and use the rest?  And yes, the Learn to Lead curriculum references the USAF drill manual, and CAPR 52-16 does as well.

I liked the picture, and the color guard represented CAP and the USA with dignity and pride.

If you said that and left it there, none of this would be happening.

I explained twice now that if I only say positive things, when there are negative things (and there always are negatives in color guards), it means that I do not think that the other people can handle it.  If I only get positive remarks, and nothing at all negative, I would be sorely offended, as would many other cadets I know.  However, if people mention the problems that really happened, and the problems are not bad ones; it is then that I know that I did a good job.  I had assumed that other people had the same thoughts on that.  I guess it was a bad assumption.
Please, I was just trying to give a complement in the way that I (and many other people I know) would enjoy it best.  There have now been six different people who said that I should not have done it.  Hasn't enough been said?

[abdsp51]

Pretty sure that CAP is not the Air Force...take a look in the CAP regs and manuals that govern color guards.

We use the USAF drill manual for everything else.  Why would we yank out the section on color guard and use the rest?  And yes, the Learn to Lead curriculum references the USAF drill manual, and CAPR 52-16 does as well.

I liked the picture, and the color guard represented CAP and the USA with dignity and pride.

If you said that and left it there, none of this would be happening.

I explained twice now that if I only say positive things, when there are negative things (and there always are negatives in color guards), it means that I do not think that the other people can handle it.  If I only get positive remarks, and nothing at all negative, I would be sorely offended, as would many other cadets I know.  However, if people mention the problems that really happened, and the problems are not bad ones; it is then that I know that I did a good job.  I had assumed that other people had the same thoughts on that.  I guess it was a bad assumption.
Please, I was just trying to give a complement in the way that I (and many other people I know) would enjoy it best.  There have now been six different people who said that I should not have done it.  Hasn't enough been said?

Until you have more experience equal to what many have here you are far from an expert.  I would love to attend one your meetings especially when you are doing D&C.  I'm sure I would and a few other SMs here would be able to pick that apart piece by piece but we'll cap it off with looks good.  Until you're stuff is spot on and squared away don't comment.

[SarDragon]

The AF D&C Manual has no mention of procedures for arms, other than this:

Units or organizations required to drill under arms will use the procedures in US Army Field Manual 22-5, Drill and Ceremonies, SECNAV 5060.22, Marine Corps Drill and Ceremonies Manual, or Air Force Academy Cadet Wing Manual 50-5.

From FM 22-5:

c. The Color guard is formed and marched in one rank at close interval, the bearers in the center. They do not execute rear march or about face. The Color guard marches at right shoulder arms and executes facing movements by wheeling to the right or left.

[lordmonar]

The problem is....the photos in the AF drill manual shows left and right shoulder arms.   Because even the USAF does not real their own fricking manual. 

The left and right shoulder arms for color guards is a myth that goes way way way back....I have yet to find a manual that say "the honor guards keep their arms to the outside of the formation" or words to that affect.

The Army manual....as pointed out.....specifically says right shoulder arms.

[Holding Pattern]

Please, I was just trying to give a complement in the way that I (and many other people I know) would enjoy it best.  There have now been six different people who said that I should not have done it.  Hasn't enough been said?

Not quite enough has been said. I think I'll say a little more.

I quite nearly didn't post this thread on captalk at all because I was certain it would become a uniform critique thread somehow.

Turns out I was half right.

There is a fun phrase I learned a long time ago: "Praise in public, Critique in private."

There is a fun button I discovered a long time ago on forums labeled: "PM"

Finally, Cadet12354, I'd like you to reread your initial comment with the following wikipedia article in mind:

ing_with_faint_praise]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/[darn]ing_with_faint_praise
Link shortener provided since the forum is eating that link:
http://tinyurl.com/capdarn
Finally, read page 6 of the Counseling portion of the Officer Basic Course, specifically:

The best way to phrase feedback during performance counseling is to use descriptive
phrases, like "Those directions were unclear.", or "You were very efficient in finding the
target". You should avoid evaluative terms like "good" or "bad". The person knows
whether "unclear" or "efficient" was good or bad. Furthermore, descriptive terms help
the person to know exactly what to build on or work on, rather than trying to guess why
something was good or bad.
Performance counseling should follow a schedule, or in the case of an event-related
session follow the event as soon as possible. This is why there are debriefings at the
end of missions and major activities. When done promptly the event is clear in
everyone's mind, it helps with goal setting, and it prevents people from wasting time and
developing bad habits.

Now, I point out the bold portion specifically, because when you leave an open-ended critique on an internet forum like you did, it triggers a reflexive reaction in many posters to immediately ask for details, rush to defense, or otherwise place the thread on a tangent from its original goal.

In many forums, this type of behavior is known as trolling. This is bad, and not a label you wish to earn on any forum.

And now to wrap things up...

Had I posted a picture of our color guard and said: "This is our color guard. Tell us what we did wrong!" This thread would currently be on topic.

We are currently in a TOPIC-OFF status. Everyone in CAP knows we should always be TOPIC-ON.

Cadet, you have 2 options to bring this to a TOPIC-ON status.

1. Apologize and move on,
Or
2. Apologize, and post pictures of your color guard. Be unsurprised if everyone proceeds to ignore everything I typed above about being TOPIC-ON and points out that the 2nd lowest button on the 3rd farthest cadet's uniform in formation appears to be too shiny. Though maybe, just maybe, everyone will comment on how good your squadron presents the colors and thus more posters will start posting pictures of their colors being presented, and the flurry of PMs in the background that provide updates to the Color Guard AARs (though at least in the ones I've participated in, rarely is there something that they missed, especially in the digital age) results in better Color Guards across the nation.

I know, I'm an optimist.

Personally, I think C/Cool said it best:

Cadet12345, please take the INSTRUCTIVE criticism and leave it at that. You defending your point is really making yourself and this thread look bad.

Everybody else, this thread is supposed to be about this color guard. Why can't we congratulate them and stop carrying on the arguments? If you have something negative to say to someone please say it in a PM. Negative post degrade the whole point of the original post. I do realize we are only trying to help someone out here but, could we do it more discreetly?

Thanks, and that is my two cents worth

[LSThiker]

That is the USAF Drill and Ceremonies manual.  Look at Figure 7.10, Position of Flags at the Carry.

Cadet 12354, I will give you some advice that you may not know and probably won't learn without some real experience.  Military regulations are not written in such a way that you can just look at a picture and say "that is the way it must be done".  You have to read all applicable sections and fully understand it.  A picture can represent just a single method of doing it.  The Shoulder ARMS shown in Figure 7.10 is just one method of doing it.  However, that is not to say Right Shoulder ARMS is not allowed.  As SarDragon points out, AFMAN 36-2203 states to use FM 22-5 (which is now TC 3-21.5).  The Army almost exclusively uses Right Shoulder ARMS, although I have seen a few Shoulder ARMS used.

In addition, Port ARMS is allowed for Color Guards as Right Shoulder ARMS may not be applicable (think a room or building). 

Take or leave this advice as you see fit.  But really do think critically over what is being said here.

[Invalid Name]

Everybody else, this thread is supposed to be about this color guard. Why can't we congratulate them and stop carrying on the arguments?

I agree with C/Cool we're supposed to be talking about the color guard, but I think that we should say more than "Great job".  We should tell them of their strong points and weakness.  If someone says how good they were and what they needed to work on as well, someone who is really good at color guard would thank them for their input.  Lets forget about this thing and leave it as that, nobody is going to say that they are wrong.
As for the color guard I loved it  I can't say its the best. but its really, really good.  :clap:

[NIN]

I hate to rekindle what has apparently become the embers of a nice hot fire, but I've been ruminating about this one for a few days in my head...

I won't bother to address the D&C implications of that photo. Folks have already done that.

No, what I think is far more salient is the just absolute outright criticism of that winds up here on CAP-Talk (and sometimes most of the time on Facebook in similar circumstances) with the first half-dozen posts.

We had a great photo posted by Starfleet Auxiliary. I mean really: A FANTASTIC photo.  I've been in CAP a long time and I went "Whoa! Nice!"

Could someone experienced with color guard pick out some minor nitpicks?  Sure.

But why bother?  At the end of the day, it is a GREAT photo and one that the cadets should be proud of.

Starfleet Auxiliary didn't post that photo for criticism and scorn, he posted it to say "hey, look, fellow Civil Air Patrol members, my squadron did this incredibly cool thing and we even have an incredibly cool photo!"  If I don't miss my guess, Starfleet Auxiliary is actually happy and proud to be in CAP. I might be wrong.

There is a difference between a minor problem (ie. something that occurs when people and equipment actually leap off a printed page or a sheet of grid paper and actually *do* the things we believe should have zero tolerances) and legitimate, egregious "bad stuff."

Joe Civilian sitting in the stands isn't going "Look at that guy, he's 4" to the left of where he should be!" or "Awww, those guys are all carrying their rifles on the wrong shoulder..." 

Hopefully Joe Civilian is actually STANDING in the stands, with his baseball cap over his heart, singing the National Anthem at the top of his lungs while his chest swells with pride at these awesome young Americans who clearly hold their National Colors in high regard.

I swear, we attract zero-defect perfectionists to the organization sometimes.  The more you're around, the more you realize that there is a difference: A difference between people who are legitimately trying to do things right and "things just happen" in between the physical execution of the commands and movements and the result,  and people who are egregiously doing things wrong because they can't be bothered to follow the published guidance or they just don't care.

You want examples of bad stuff? Stuff that should be gathering scorn? Stuff that deserves to be corrected?
(I've deliberately selected some old photos that were publicly available on the Internet. I hope none of these people are still in CAP..)



Pretty bad stuff that if someone posted it here to say "Hey, look at my awesome unit!" or "OMG! Look at my awesome beret and sword!!" more than 90% of us would go "Uhhh, yeah, can we talk about that for a minute?"

Heck, here's a great example of how even the PROFESSIONALS get it wrong once in awhile:

Yeah, that is a bad one. The Marines, for crying out loud!

But we see this here on CAP Talk when people post a news story, a photo, etc, all the time:
OP: "This great article about my squadron marching in the Memorial Day Parade was on the front page of the local paper"
Poster A: "Great photo, too bad nobody is in step."
Poster B: "Dress & cover, too."
Poster C: "Is that all you could get for a Memorial Day parade? Pffft."
Poster D: "They're in step, thats not that guy's right leg, its his left.  His right leg is in the shadows due to the angle of the lighting."
OP: "But its a great article about my unit!"
Poster A: "Oh, is that guy in the second rank wearing the wrong cap device?"
Poster B: "Nah, that's just a weird trick of the lighting."
Poster C: "You're an idiot, light doesn't reflect that way!"
OP: "I just wanted to show my squadron marching in the Memorial Day Parade!"
Poster D: "Shut up, OP! This is a great example of why your unit needs to be shut down, right now! You are why the USAF is going make us wear shorts and t-shirts instead of USAF uniforms. Matter of fact, I bet the USAF Chief of Staff was at that parade and turned to his aide and said 'That CAP kid can't wear his hat right.. Lets take all uniforms away from these people.' and now look where we are!  Its all your fault, OP!"
[rinse and repeat for 3 pages. Meanwhile the OP, a C/MSgt, has been crying himself to sleep at night because everybody is incredibly mean to him and his unit]
OP: "You guys suck, I'm never posting here again!"
Poster F: "Sayronara, sweetheart! Can't stand the heat, don't come into the kitchen! And tell that kid to fix his cap device!"

Thats kind of a made up example.  But want a legit example?

About three years ago, we had a post linking to the news article about a senior in Texas who force landed a CAP plane after an engine failure and walked away unharmed (Original Post here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14452.0).   The THIRD post in the thread was someone assuming that the pilot wasn't in a CAP uniform. And it went downhill from there.

How many times a week do we see this?  How many times a year?

Guys (and gals, no need to exclude anybody here): We're all on the same team!

Knock off the instant criticism, the immediate assumption that people are wrong based on one minor aspect of a photo, etc.  Its not helpful, its not respectful and its not reflecting a good image of the organization.

[THRAWN]

NIN, great post. Like you, I've been around a bit and the OP photo is one that really blew me away. The discussion really did get off track and away from the OP's intent.

[Eaker Guy]

I hate to rekindle what has apparently become the embers of a nice hot fire, but I've been ruminating about this one for a few days in my head...

I won't bother to address the D&C implications of that photo. Folks have already done that.

No, what I think is far more salient is the just absolute outright criticism of that winds up here on CAP-Talk (and sometimes most of the time on Facebook in similar circumstances) with the first half-dozen posts.

We had a great photo posted by Starfleet Auxiliary. I mean really: A FANTASTIC photo.  I've been in CAP a long time and I went "Whoa! Nice!"

Could someone experienced with color guard pick out some minor nitpicks?  Sure.

But why bother?  At the end of the day, it is a GREAT photo and one that the cadets should be proud of.

Starfleet Auxiliary didn't post that photo for criticism and scorn, he posted it to say "hey, look, fellow Civil Air Patrol members, my squadron did this incredibly cool thing and we even have an incredibly cool photo!"  If I don't miss my guess, Starfleet Auxiliary is actually happy and proud to be in CAP. I might be wrong.

There is a difference between a minor problem (ie. something that occurs when people and equipment actually leap off a printed page or a sheet of grid paper and actually *do* the things we believe should have zero tolerances) and legitimate, egregious "bad stuff."

Joe Civilian sitting in the stands isn't going "Look at that guy, he's 4" to the left of where he should be!" or "Awww, those guys are all carrying their rifles on the wrong shoulder..." 

Hopefully Joe Civilian is actually STANDING in the stands, with his baseball cap over his heart, singing the National Anthem at the top of his lungs while his chest swells with pride at these awesome young Americans who clearly hold their National Colors in high regard.

I swear, we attract zero-defect perfectionists to the organization sometimes.  The more you're around, the more you realize that there is a difference: A difference between people who are legitimately trying to do things right and "things just happen" in between the physical execution of the commands and movements and the result,  and people who are egregiously doing things wrong because they can't be bothered to follow the published guidance or they just don't care.

You want examples of bad stuff? Stuff that should be gathering scorn? Stuff that deserves to be corrected?
(I've deliberately selected some old photos that were publicly available on the Internet. I hope none of these people are still in CAP..)



Pretty bad stuff that if someone posted it here to say "Hey, look at my awesome unit!" or "OMG! Look at my awesome beret and sword!!" more than 90% of us would go "Uhhh, yeah, can we talk about that for a minute?"

Heck, here's a great example of how even the PROFESSIONALS get it wrong once in awhile:

Yeah, that is a bad one. The Marines, for crying out loud!

But we see this here on CAP Talk when people post a news story, a photo, etc, all the time:
OP: "This great article about my squadron marching in the Memorial Day Parade was on the front page of the local paper"
Poster A: "Great photo, too bad nobody is in step."
Poster B: "Dress & cover, too."
Poster C: "Is that all you could get for a Memorial Day parade? Pffft."
Poster D: "They're in step, thats not that guy's right leg, its his left.  His right leg is in the shadows due to the angle of the lighting."
OP: "But its a great article about my unit!"
Poster A: "Oh, is that guy in the second rank wearing the wrong cap device?"
Poster B: "Nah, that's just a weird trick of the lighting."
Poster C: "You're an idiot, light doesn't reflect that way!"
OP: "I just wanted to show my squadron marching in the Memorial Day Parade!"
Poster D: "Shut up, OP! This is a great example of why your unit needs to be shut down, right now! You are why the USAF is going make us wear shorts and t-shirts instead of USAF uniforms. Matter of fact, I bet the USAF Chief of Staff was at that parade and turned to his aide and said 'That CAP kid can't wear his hat right.. Lets take all uniforms away from these people.' and now look where we are!  Its all your fault, OP!"
[rinse and repeat for 3 pages. Meanwhile the OP, a C/MSgt, has been crying himself to sleep at night because everybody is incredibly mean to him and his unit]
OP: "You guys suck, I'm never posting here again!"
Poster F: "Sayronara, sweetheart! Can't stand the heat, don't come into the kitchen! And tell that kid to fix his cap device!"

Thats kind of a made up example.  But want a legit example?

About three years ago, we had a post linking to the news article about a senior in Texas who force landed a CAP plane after an engine failure and walked away unharmed (Original Post here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14452.0).   The THIRD post in the thread was someone assuming that the pilot wasn't in a CAP uniform. And it went downhill from there.

How many times a week do we see this?  How many times a year?

Guys (and gals, no need to exclude anybody here): We're all on the same team!

Knock off the instant criticism, the immediate assumption that people are wrong based on one minor aspect of a photo, etc.  Its not helpful, its not respectful and its not reflecting a good image of the organization.

+1

[HGjunkie]

Seriously, who cares? Training a group of cadets to be able to do that in the first place is no small task, and things always go wrong at major events. No exception. Even small errors. It's going to happen, criticizing it over the internet isn't going to do anything. More than likely, after the posting the cadets had some sort of debrief and will incorporate any changes to improve upon their performance at their next practice (if they're worth their salt).

[Eaker Guy]

Seriously, who cares? Training a group of cadets to be able to do that in the first place is no small task, and things always go wrong at major events. No exception. Even small errors. It's going to happen, criticizing it over the internet isn't going to do anything. More than likely, after the posting the cadets had some sort of debrief and will incorporate any changes to improve upon their performance at their next practice (if they're worth their salt).

+1

[LSThiker]

Heck, here's a great example of how even the PROFESSIONALS get it wrong once in awhile:

Yeah, that is a bad one. The Marines, for crying out loud!

"Hey sir.  Did you know today is my retirement as an E-9?  No!  Don't worry, LT, I got you covered.  Watch this".


But no, seriously.  Even the Canadians get their flag wrong:

[C/Cool]

And we are back on track!  Thanks guys!  :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Luis R. Ramos]

The Marine Corps Color Guard borrowed that Canadian flag from the Canucks on that day...

[PHall]

The Marine Corps Color Guard borrowed that Canadian flag from the Canucks on that day...

How about not calling citizens of another country a name that many of them don't like.

[JeffDG]

The Marine Corps Color Guard borrowed that Canadian flag from the Canucks on that day...

How about not calling citizens of another country a name that many of them don't like.

I've personally taken umbrage to that term since Vancouver lost in the Stanley Cup finals in 2011 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Vancouver_Stanley_Cup_riot) and the Canuck fans decided it was a great excuse to riot.  Want nothing to do with anyone who associates themselves with those hoodlums.

[Luis R. Ramos]

How about not calling citizens of another country a name that many of them don't like.

How about informing yourself first whether what you say is true or not!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canuck

In that article it says the term is not derogatory in Canada!

If you do a CAPTalk search, it shows at least 5 times!

If you do not want it used, then ban its usage by anyone in CAPTalk.

You, sir, are a troll!

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/Canuck does not say it is derogatory.

[PHall]

How about not calling citizens of another country a name that many of them don't like.

How about informing yourself first whether what you say is true or not!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canuck

In that article it says the term is not derogatory in Canada!

If you do a CAPTalk search, it shows at least 5 times!

If you do not want it used, then ban its usage by anyone in CAPTalk.

You, sir, are a troll!

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/Canuck does not say it is derogatory.

Funny, JeffDG, who is a Canadian, doesn't like it. I rest my case.

[Luis R. Ramos]

So the thread is again taken off the original topic...

Little by little, someone posted pictures of mistakes done by some Color Guards, I tried to make it a little funny so it would not appear as bad, and someone took umbrage at my lighthearted attempt at humor, then another one responded...

I apologize for trying to make the so-called mistakes of the professionals seem less, shall we say, dire?

However as I said, if they get upset at that term, then they themselves should not use the word. Just like members of a certain race use a term themselves while yelling at others not to use it.

But just like Nin, Cadet Kiss, and others have said, let's go back to the original photo, their moment of glory and basking in all that attention.

They deserve that after spending a lot of hours training for that moment, being under stress to get it right, and finally performing!

Congratulations.

[HGjunkie]

[PHall]

You do know that people died in the wreck you show in the picture.

Maybe find another one?

[Rafka]

Is everyone here going to get offended regardless of what other people say?

[Luis R. Ramos]

It looks like our sensibilities sensors are tuned up too high!!!

[HGjunkie]

Is everyone here going to get offended regardless of what other people say?

Yes. Welcome to CAPTalk, the domain of crusty SM's and oversensitive people.

[CAPDCCMOM]

You forgot Home of the Drama Queens

[Nuke52]

You also forgot "Home of the CAPDCCMOMs Who 'come from five generations of Marine NCO's [sic].'"  So "save the lecture on what you think the challenge coin means..."     Lighten up, Francis.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I think you posted this answer in the wrong thread... This is not a challenge coin thread... but Posting the Colors instead...

[Eaker Guy]

I didn't count, but I think that this thread has gone through four or five different topics!

Mr. Ramos is right. It's a great photo.

A month or two ago, I trained a color guard to perform in a similar environment. I was unable to be at the event, but I trusted my people to get it done. They did fairly well, although here were a couple of glitches. Overall, I was pleased. My cadets, and the cadets who were in he original picture in this thread have taken the time out of their day to serve the CAP and their country. So what if it wasn't perfect? They are only kids. Of course we should train for perfection, but we shouldn't expect it. What we should do is challenge every cadet to give 100% at whatever they do.

Great job guys, and keep serving the CAP and your country!