Lowering the Cadet Joining Age

[lordmonar]

From another thread I suggested that we lower the minimum age from 12 to 11 and completed the sixth grade or 12.

My thinking on this is that we can tie our recruiting to the school year.   And we can get cadets into CAP and to Encampment that first summer.


Thoughts?

[a2capt]

I dunno, I think 11 and encampment within 3-4 weeks of some joining might be a little much for many of them.

We have a rule of thumb in our unit that is "15". If the cadet age and stripes equal 15, they're generally "ready" for encampment, in that the message will sink in, and they'll participate without all the other stuff that comes with young age.

That's not to say it's hard and fast, we always talk about it with the cadet and parents.

[Eclipse]

I think a hard 12 if fine, and these days considering the "red shirt" phenomena, you're also going to see a small number of 5th graders that are 12 years old.

I kind of agree with your reasoning, but there are fundamental maturity issues tied to age, not to mention physical size development that make 12 a reasonable age,
and 11 problematic.  Throw in home schoolers, who are likely to be seeking out CAP opportunities, and you risk 11+1 day kids who are not ready for CAP, and
we lose them permanently.

Considering that most local units scale back activities in the summer, and a lot of families go on vacation, summer time is not going to
work for major recruiting pushes.  It works for the military because grabbing kids right out of the door of high school keeps them on track,
but that's not the paradigm in CAP.

The only way it might be workable is if you required a 1-2 week "basic" for new cadets and only allowed them to join ranks in a unit after completion, then
your major pushes would be in the Spring, and major influx in the Fall.

[lordmonar]

My thinking is that your major recruiting drive is in MAY while school is still in session.....hit the schools, get the cadets visiting the units.  As soon as school lets out you drop the paper work and they join up.   We slightly retool encament to BE the basic training.  Back off a little of the Full Metal Jacket stuff, focus on basic drill and ceremonies, PT, Aerospace, etc.   We can still stress them and do the all the other "not required" stuff......but tone it down if it is "too hard" for the age group.

If the 11+1 kids are going to be an issue...and the homeschoolers....then we make it 11 1/2 and completed with the 6th grade.

The issue with 12 as a hard number is that is spreads out your recruiting effort.   Give a talk to six graders and you have keep at it for a year until they are all of age to join.  We risk loosing more 12 years olds who get involved with other things before they are of age then we do to recruiting too young.

Also please note that this is the system that the BSA has used for since forever.....and it works very good for them.

[dwb]

CAP has fiddled with the minimum cadet age a few times in the last 20 or so years. I like the hard-and-fast age rule, whatever that age is. The "...or entered/completed X grade" thing was confusing. And 12 is as good an age as any.

The current rule is easy to understand and communicate, and brings us new recruits that are at an appropriate age for the existing Phase I curriculum.

[JeffDG]

Interesting proposal.  My daughter is one that would be able to join sooner.  Her birthday is August, so from when she is eligible to join until the next Wing encampment will be 9 1/2 months or so.

Not sure whether I favour the proposal, but just interesting.  It would be very intersting to have a wing or two do a pilot program and see what happens...with respect to recruiting and retention, ability to handle encampment, etc.

[lordmonar]

CAP has fiddled with the minimum cadet age a few times in the last 20 or so years. I like the hard-and-fast age rule, whatever that age is. The "...or entered/completed X grade" thing was confusing. And 12 is as good an age as any.

The current rule is easy to understand and communicate, and brings us new recruits that are at an appropriate age for the existing Phase I curriculum.

I'm sorry....how is that confusing?  I know the last time we tried it....they screwed up the rule....it was 12 or compled the 6th grade......so you had some home schoolers who had their 9 and 10 year olds doing the "7th grade" books who were allowed to joing......that is where we get the famous stories of the 13 year old Spaatzs who did not know anything......but noticed the 11 year old hard limit.   

The only people I am looking at getting access to...is people like JeffDG's daughter......instead of having to wait till August (and then she has to wait until next June to go to encampment as a C/TSgt....she can go as a C/AB or C/Amn that first summer.

[NIN]

Back when the earth was cooling (and CAP was not quite 60 years old), the age was "12 or attending the sixth grade" ( think it was that )

I had a cadet's mom come to me about cadet's younger brother. Kid was very immature (he's in 5th grade, for crying out loud!) and probably not all that interested in CAP. Mom wanted him to join and go to summer encampment.  She was very very demanding about this and I could not figure out why.

"Yeah, sorry, he can't join CAP until the fall when he's actually attending sixth grade."

"Well, at our school district, they're considered 'attending' the very minute they complete fifth grade."

"OK, thats weird, but the rules say 'Attending sixth grade' and my understanding of the intent of that rule is that you can join in SEPTEMBER at age 11, when you're actually in a sixth grade classroom and physically attending sixth grade, not having just completed fifth grade."

She argued with me incessantly over it, until I basically had to tell her "Sorry, thats not how our regs are written, and the interpretation of our regs is up to me and my chain of command. Here's the number for my commander if you want plead your case with him or you feel that my interpretation is not correct."

Very quickly thereafter, I took a job transfer and moved to NER. I warned my replacement "Watch out for this lady, she'll try to get you to bend the rules..."   

A month or two later I was back for encampment.  During inprocessing, I see my cadet and his younger brother, a brand new C/AB.

I found my replacement and pulled him aside: "dude, I warned you about that woman and her kid."

"Yeah, I know but she was pretty insistent."

"So is herpes..."

The younger cadet was a HUGE problem for his flight & TAC staff all week. One night, during the fire-drill, I see him standing outside the barracks and our Chief TAC is talking to him. Apparently he fell to pieces during the fire-drill and did not want to stay.

We bucked his issues to the chaplains, etc (GLR at the time had a pretty good progressive handling of home-sick cadets that basically resulted in a kid being bucked around until by the time they could be sent home, it was so far along that we'd be like "Its just two more days..") Finally, on Thursday, during practice for the graduation parade on the flight line, he was seen standing in the back of his flight with his arms crossed.

The encampment XO spots him, says "hey, cadet, come here for a second.."

The young man exits his flight, turns and bolts for the far side of the airfield via the active runway. The one with the commuter airliner on short final.

When the SPs finally caught up, they had to peel him off the 8-ft barbed wire topped perimeter fence as he tried (unsuccessfully) to escape to freedom...

Mom arrived 6 hrs later to pick up her little cherub.  I just stood there with that "I told you so" look on my face.

[SamFranklin]

CAPR 52-16, 1-3.
d.   Challenge. CAP challenges youth. It might be the physical challenge of conquering an obstacle course, an academic challenge to master aerospace and leadership concepts, a moral challenge to live the Core Values or a personal challenge to know oneself better and gain self- confidence. Because of these challenges, the Cadet Program is intended for young adults, not children. Every activity should challenge cadets in one way or another.

I think the hard and fast rule of 12 (with the 800-unit school squadrons excepted) is about right for a program that sees itself serving "young adults, not children." The "young adult" concept should drive the minimum age. Maybe that's 11, maybe 13, but 12 seems about right to me, especially with the 11 year old encampment problems people have already mentioned.

[lordmonar]

I think the school squadorns are a prime example.

Anyone out there seeing a problem with the middle schoolers going to their first encampment?

How many school units are there?  I know there are two here in Las Vegas.  IIRC the largest unit in CAP is a middle school in ILWG (chigaco area?). 

I know that there will always be problems with individuals.......but for every 11 year old who looses it at encampment......how may 11 year olds successfully complete it....and how many older cadets lose it....how many 19 year old cadets cause problems at encampment?

I'm not asserting one thing or another.....simply asking the question "is there any data" to back up the assertion that 11 years old is too young for encampment.

I agree in concept that there should be a cut off point.......not everyone is ready to join CAP at 11 or 12 or 13 or sometimes ever......but lets check our assumptions and look at this with an open mind.

[Eclipse]

The biggest one is in INWG.  ILWG doesn't have any of those programs.

I wasn't aware that the school programs where the kids are under 12 even >went< to encampment.
I thought those were different programs for younger kids.

[Slim]

I'd much prefer a hard, fast age rule than one that leaves something open to interpretation.  I remember the darling little angel Nin mentioned, and what a train wreck he was.

But, when it comes to encampment, whether or not they pack the gear to complete it is going to be entirely dependent on the individual cadet.  Two cases come immediately to mind.

Long about 2001 or 2002, I found out that we had a 10 (yes T-E-N) year old cadet attending.  She was home schooled, and had completed the sixth grade; at the time, it was 12 OR completed 6th grade.  she had some uniform challenges that her squadron hadn't thought about, like getting them for her.  We were able to find uniforms from the local squadron to fit her, and the BX just happened to have a pair of female size 5 boots on the shelf (one of the seniors bought them for her, and mom paid her back at the end of the week).  From what I remember, she absolutely rocked it the whole week; no issues with discipline, homesickness or anything else.  She didn't win honor cadet or anything, but she got through the week just fine.  That was also the year we had the 14 year old cadet get so freaked out that he threatened suicide and became so combative that we had to call the state police to intervene.

In 2011, the cadet staff brought me a 15 year old cadet at 10:30 the first night of the activity.  He looked right at me and said "I'm not staying, I want to go home."  No amount of appealing, or trying to tell him that he'd been there less than 12 hours would convince him otherwise.  Ok, no problem, I'm not going to bust my tookus too hard to keep him there to be someone's pet project or problem child all week.  So, I get dad on the phone at 2300 hours, start to explain the situation to him, and dad tells me not to bother because his loveable youngster has never lasted more that 24 hours at any overnight activity away from home.  Wanting to get it out in the open and have the uncomfortable discussion about why he wouldn't be able to get a refund, dad says "Don't worry, this is a drop in the bucket compared to what I wasted on hockey camp last month."  Mind=boggled.  Why would you blow the coin to send your kid somewhere, knowing full well that this was going to happen?

Another concern is that around here, with the exception of graduating seniors, our cadets are still in school until the middle of June.  So, if they don't complete 6th grade until June 12-15, and you were unlucky enough to have encampment the first two weeks of July, those new cadets wouldn't even be members/on the roster yet.  Assuming you had some flexibility with your host facility, you might be able to push it back into the middle of August, but then we start running into the problem of our older cadets and younger seniors having to start college right around that time.

I've unfortunately been in that position where I've had to tell a cadet that they needed to wait for encampment; they joined in May, encampment in July, there was just no way for us to get her uniforms, cram in everything needed for the Curry, and build enough of a foundation for her to have been successful at it in that amount of time.  What was even more painful is that she also wanted to go to our week-long SAR academy the end of July, and our long-standing policy in the unit was that you didn't do anything else until you went to basic encampment.   By the way, she did stick with it, went to both encampment and SAR the next summer as a C/SrA, and just got her Mitchell a couple of months ago.

[lordmonar]

I understand the issues of the really young cadets and the homeschooler issuses.

Hence the idea that there is still a hard deck of 11 1/2 old.

As for not having the foundations to be "successful" at encamapment........encampment should be where you get those foundations IMHO.

I also understand the problems with getting all your cadets regestered and in uniform in a few weeks.

Having said all that.......IF CAP got into the habbit of recruiting drives in April-May with 6th graders visiting squadorns, filling our paperwork, membership boards held, measurments taken for FCU checks signed and everything in an envelope waiting for for last day of school.....drop it in the mail Friday, it is at NHQ on Tuesday and CAP ID issued by Friday.   You can drop the FCU request as soon as the CAP ID is issued.  If you have surplus uniforms you can issue them right away and get the order off to vanguard for all the acuterments.

Yes this is a lot of work......but you only have to do it once a year.

[Eclipse]

I understand the issues of the really young cadets and the homeschooler issuses.

Hence the idea that there is still a hard deck of 11 1/2 old.

As for not having the foundations to be "successful" at encamapment........encampment should be where you get those foundations IMHO.

So two issues with this - you've bumped the age up a bit - remember in a homeschool environment there are no "hard ages", so it's possible and
even likely to see 11+1 day and sixth grade.

As to encampment being for foundational training, I disagree as it exists today - Cadets require Curry to attend, and that's supposed to be
where the foundation is lain.

I'd be in favor of "Basic" encampments that came before Curry, or maybe even presented Curry at the end, but that changes the current
CAP model pretty substantially.  "Curry Camp" would also go a long way to fixing the inconsistencies in CAP because the baseline would be
much more specific, at least at the wing level.

[a2capt]

CAWG has the weekend long BCS (Basic Cadet School) that are hosted periodically through the wing and it's structured to get the attendee their next stripe, be it their first, second or even third, if they're so inclined. Though by then they usually have it figured out, at least in theory.

That's not always the case.

[NIN]

I'd be in favor of "Basic" encampments that came before Curry, or maybe even presented Curry at the end, but that changes the current
CAP model pretty substantially.  "Curry Camp" would also go a long way to fixing the inconsistencies in CAP because the baseline would be  much more specific, at least at the wing level.

I've participated in an environment where new cadets are called "recruits" and go thru 40 hrs of indoctrination at the unit ("Recruit Orientation") prior to 2-week long "Basic Cadet Training" once a year at Annual Training.   This is a sort of "RSP->BCT" model that the National Guard uses, too.  Only after successfully graduating from BCT does the cadet assume the title "cadet."

One can assume in this model that at the very least new cadets have a similar baseline of training from year to year when they pin on their mosquito wings. That was "mostly true."

We also ran several courses of instruction where recruits went to BCT for 2 weeks and then rolled right into the three-week long BLC (Basic Leadership Course) COI and spent 5 weeks total.

We often ran into some problems with cadets who would come back from units for BLC or the advanced course after they went to BCT the first year where they'd need some serious "Re-Greening," especially around customs and courtesies and drill.  I swear, I'd have all my OCS folks learning D&C (some for the first time) and all the BLC troopers in there getting the same classes because they'd really, really need it after spending a year back at their unit and "doing it wrong."

So while I do love the "pre-Curry/Curry, (I was a two-cutout cadet when I went to my first), the training better be high speed and 100% correct.

[lordmonar]

I understand the issues of the really young cadets and the homeschooler issuses.

Hence the idea that there is still a hard deck of 11 1/2 old.

As for not having the foundations to be "successful" at encamapment........encampment should be where you get those foundations IMHO.

So two issues with this - you've bumped the age up a bit - remember in a homeschool environment there are no "hard ages", so it's possible and
even likely to see 11+1 day and sixth grade.

Hence the 11 1/2.....not 11 years and 1 day....but 11 years and six months....so we establish the priciple that there is too young....but open the door to recruit by school age....and not calandar age.

As to encampment being for foundational training, I disagree as it exists today - Cadets require Curry to attend, and that's supposed to be
where the foundation is lain.

Have you looked at Curry lately?   Not much of a foundation compared to what it used to be.

I'd be in favor of "Basic" encampments that came before Curry, or maybe even presented Curry at the end, but that changes the current
CAP model pretty substantially.  "Curry Camp" would also go a long way to fixing the inconsistencies in CAP because the baseline would be
much more specific, at least at the wing level.

That is what I have argued local for quite awhile....and I posted in the Encampment Thread that started this one.    We retool Encampment to be two tracked.....One focused on first timers below the rank of SSgt (a Camp Curry) heavy on drill, followership, basic ES and a second track that is more like a BSA summer camp where each attendee is able to pick and choose from several courses being offered.....advanced drill, color guard, drill team, ES specilaties, leadership, public speaking, writing, as well as just for fun stuff....rifle shooting, rappelling, etc.

That way small wings can focus on the CAMP Curry part of encampment and send their second years out to larger encampments or NCSAs as appropriate.

[Slim]

As to encampment being for foundational training, I disagree as it exists today - Cadets require Curry to attend, and that's supposed to be
where the foundation is lain.

And that's exactly where I was headed, but didn't mention it in the belief that a bunch of well-versed CP officers understand that at this time, the Curry award is a requirement to attend encampment.

And I also agree that the Curry requirements aren't all that challenging--to someone who's been there and done that.  Whether prior service or prior cadet, learning how to stand up very still, walk in a straight line and doing it while turning a corner, what those different stripes circles and diamonds mean, etc, weren't really that challenging when we look back on it.  But I'm pretty sure that there are 11 and 12 year olds who might struggle with it.

Now, put that same 11-13 year old in with a group of people who mostly already have these foundations, and you've got one of those pet projects I mentioned.  The cadet staff (who are learning their job and outside of their own comfort zone) have to try to cram that foundation in amongst everything else, which is going to put undue stress and pressure on them, their other cadets will suffer, and the staff then becomes a a project for someone else.

It would be neigh unto impossible to take all of these people in on Saturday, teach them everything they need to take and pass a Curry test (the bookwork, drill and ceremonies, and customs & courtesies), plus uniform wear, preparation and maintenance, squeeze in GES, and introductions to aerospace and any of the other encampment type activities, then spit them out the following Saturday with their mosquito wings. 

Encampment is not like going to IET, where you enlist then sit around and pester your recruiter for anywhere from one month to a year, then go off to 8 to 10 (or more) weeks of basic training.  Even the Army Guard has now created recruit sustainment companies or battalions that they send their recruits to for their monthly drills between enlistment and shipping to IET.  I understand that what they do is teach D & C, uniform wear, some introductory CTT, and generally get them ready to go off to basic and succeed.  I would imagine the opposite would probably be possible too:  weed out the non-hackers before they go off to Benning, Jackson or wherever, and waste training money and spots.

Even using the USAC or or Navy sea cadet model, where they're recruits until they finish their two week basic training, they're still sending recruits to CBT who could have been in the program for 51 weeks.  I'd be willing to bet that what those recruits do between the time they join and when they go to CBT is nothing but drill, customs and courtesies, and how to wear a uniform.  Even in this model, most-if not all-cadets are coming into CBT with a pretty solid foundation.   I'm sure Nin will correct me if my perception is flawed.

In other words, the only difference between what we have now, and what we could have under that model is that we aren't holding our cadets back from testing and promoting until they go to encampment.  Every cadet there is (supposed to be) a C/Amn, and could be as high as a a TSgt or MSgt if they had to go to encampment in the first year of membership.  We know coming in that every cadet has-or is supposed to have-the same basic foundations when they walk through the door.  They have a uniform, know how to wear it, can march from point A to point B, and know the difference between a C/SSgt and a C/Col.  That means we can spend our time on other things like career exploration, program briefings, and fun stuff like shooting and rappelling; the fun stuff we told them about when we recruited them.

I know I'm getting long winded (as usual), and hope you're still with me.

In my opinion, encampment isn't where you get the foundations, it's where you go to fine tune and perfect them.  At the squadron, we teach you how to march in circles around a parking lot or drill hall; at encampment it's your primary mode of transportation whether it's across a parking lot, or half a mile and around the corner to the DFAC.  At the squadron, we teach you mostly small unit leadership as you go up through the ranks, encampment is where you go to practice it in a different environment and with a different group of people that you may or may not know.  After a few years, you're the cadet commander and putting into practice all of those lessons on strategic planning and such that you got at RCLS and/or COS, and you're leading a group of cadets that you don't work with every week and is exponentially larger than your home unit.

I'm not saying that we couldn't change to a USAC/USNSCC model of requiring encampment until promotion, but it would pretty much require a complete rewrite of the entire cadet program to change tasks and expectations of the different achievements.  Another thought:  Neither USAC or NSCC have more than eight or nine achievements.  I believe sea cadet promotions top out a C/CPO and USAC top out at MSG, with optional appointed promotions/appointments as 1SG, CSM, etc.  Their TIG is more-6 months for USAC-and requirements are also different and more in depth than ours.  If we had a cadet join in August, and couldn't promote until after encampment the following July, cadet officers would become even more of a rare breed than they are now, and Spaatz would be out of the question for some.

[Slim]

Another thought, and perhaps a semi hijack, but I'm all for requiring more encampments or activities.

In my experience, our most successful cadets-and even seniors-are those who are active in encampment and other programs (NESA/SAR academies, NCSAs,etc) because they get out there, engage in the program, and put those lessons to use.  I'm not saying all, but how many Spaatz or even Earhart cadets do you know of who only went to the one required encampment and did nothing else?  I can't think of any.

Encampment has always been a motivator for me, they helped me get out and see the lessons come to fruition and the payoffs for the hard work.  I'm not saying it's the only thing that kept me going in the program, but not being allowed to attend last year and this year has been a contributing factor to why I'm not doing anything in CAP right now, and having a hard time motivating myself to go back.

[jimmydeanno]

Have you looked at Curry lately?   Not much of a foundation compared to what it used to be.

I'm not sure what this means.  When I passed my curry, 15 years ago, it was practically a gimme.  The leadership test talked about some sort of ABCD's of leadership that were just some made up thing after they came up with the acronym, the PT test was a joke (I didn't have to take all three events until the Earhart), there was no drill requirement, etc.

The Curry now has a chapter that actually pertains to real leadership lessons.
A PT test that is tough enough that people actually complain about it being a roadblock.
A drill test that evaluates certain blocks of commands appropriate to the grade.
Expectation for promotion that are actually listed somewhere.

AND

There is an expectation that the unit would be using the Great Start program, too.

It is certainly a lot harder to get now than back when I was a cadet - but at the same token, how hard should it be to become a C/Amn?  I mean, really.