Cadet Online Testing - Anyone having Problems?

[suttonpa]

Our Squadron has 45 Cadets and about 15 of them have now either converted to Online Testing or joined after July 1.

1. First issue only the Commander and Primary Testing Officer was getting the email Notifications (We had to contact National to get our Alt Testing Officer and Admin Officer on the list)

2.  No notifications if a Cadet Times out. (National is looking into this)

3. I have not contacted national this issue but I will be on Monday, I know have 3 Cadets that say they received a Passing Score Screen but nothing has posted to their eServices Promotion Screen and no email was sent. 

Has anyone else experienced these or any other issues?

[tsrup]

Our Squadron has 45 Cadets and about 15 of them have now either converted to Online Testing or joined after July 1.

1. First issue only the Commander and Primary Testing Officer was getting the email Notifications (We had to contact National to get our Alt Testing Officer and Admin Officer on the list)

2.  No notifications if a Cadet Times out. (National is looking into this)

3. I have not contacted national this issue but I will be on Monday, I know have 3 Cadets that say they received a Passing Score Screen but nothing has posted to their eServices Promotion Screen and no email was sent. 

Has anyone else experienced these or any other issues?

When playing with the system I encountered the last one.  I've even found it evident in the online tests for the safety briefing. 
Just make sure the cadets click through all of the slides before exiting out of the exam. I think there is one more button to select after the test is complete and your scores post before the actual "slides" are done and the scores are posted.

hope this helps

[dwb]

3. I have not contacted national this issue but I will be on Monday, I know have 3 Cadets that say they received a Passing Score Screen but nothing has posted to their eServices Promotion Screen and no email was sent.

I'm receiving reports of the same thing in my Group.  If you can provide cadet's CAPID, test, and date/time it was taken, it may help NHQ narrow the problem down.

[Paul Creed III]

On the last screen of the testing application, cadets MUST click the "Finish" button for their scores to be posted. If they simply click out of the application, their scores are not recorded. This is a limitation of the application from what NHQ has told me.

I advise my cadets to do a screen shot or print the page (printing to PDF is fine). If something happens, I can then just enter the score manually.

[rebowman]

It is very important for the cadets to go through the entire thing -- after completing the test there is one screen that says click here to score.  The cadet gets a next screen with score.  At that point, MANY cadets think they are finished.

Those cadets that take the time to read and pay attention will see that this screen says click finish to SUBMIT your score.

Get your score & then submit it --- two separate screens.  Gotta do both steps

[a2capt]

What I have not figured out yet, is what to do with the test score should I use a printed test instead. I presume it just gets entered the same way in Cadet Promotions like the cadets using the prior system, and Phase III/IV.

Seeing as it's becoming an issue with some cadets not grasping the concept of actually finishing the test, I think I'm going to use the printed ones at the unit as an option.

Can they open the Level II test before passing the Level I test? It lets me do it, but I figure that it's because thats because I'm TCO.


Also, I'm seeing "Cadet started exam too many times without completing it" when I login and look, but I do not get any email notifications. Suffice to say, the email I have on file is correct, as I do get other notices from eServices.

[jimmydeanno]

What I have not figured out yet, is what to do with the test score should I use a printed test instead. I presume it just gets entered the same way in Cadet Promotions like the cadets using the prior system, and Phase III/IV.

Correct.  The printed versions of the online tests get entered just like the old ones.

Can they open the Level II test before passing the Level I test? It lets me do it, but I figure that it's because thats because I'm TCO.

No, they can't.  You can because you are the TCO.  The system checks to ensure that the previous achievement has been completed before they're allowed to open the next test.

[davedove]

What I have not figured out yet, is what to do with the test score should I use a printed test instead. I presume it just gets entered the same way in Cadet Promotions like the cadets using the prior system, and Phase III/IV.

Correct.  The printed versions of the online tests get entered just like the old ones.

Can they open the Level II test before passing the Level I test? It lets me do it, but I figure that it's because thats because I'm TCO.

No, they can't.  You can because you are the TCO.  The system checks to ensure that the previous achievement has been completed before they're allowed to open the next test.

Not only that, but a promotion must be recorded to access the next text.  (Oops, sorry, just reread what you posted ) 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Why did NHQ decide to allow all open book testing online for cadets? For that matter (off subject) why for the Yeager award?

I think this just opens the realm for cadets to loose sight of what the promotion process is. Learning, that is what it is about, learning aerospace and leadership. Open book testing just allows cadets to open the internet and their book and pass with a score of 100% without learning a single thing. USAF would never go for this for promotion testing, I hope. Testing should be done in person on paper in front of a testing officer. Of your cadets, how fast do they promote with online testing, and how fast do the ones who test in person advance, and which ones are better leaders, in the sense of knowing what they need to know? The knowledge that cadets get from their leadership manual needs to be in the mind not in the book. When a decision needs to be made there generally isn't enough time to consult a book. Decision making is an on the spot practice, not a consult the book question.

[octavian]

I have not yet seen any cadet score a 100% on the on-line tests.  Just because it is open book doesn't mean they don't have to study the material first.  Milestone tests are still administered by the Testing Officer.   My cadets aren't advancing any faster since the introduction of on-line testing.   We have had the problem of the score not being recorded, even after the cadet has followed all of the instructions.  We have them take a screenshot of the score and enter it manually.

[RobertAmphibian]

Testing should be done in person on paper in front of a testing officer.

As has been said before, all milestone tests are administered in person. I haven't taken any of the online tests yet:the last AE test I took was the Earhart and the achievement I'm working on doesn't have an AE exam.

There are pros and cons to the online system, just like a paper system. With the paper system, it's possible for a cadet to take the exact same test at least once just to "feel out" the questions. Personally, I think that a timed, open book test which constantly changes question requires a greater understanding of material than 25 everlasting questions.

And any cadets who don't actually retain information will be completely owned on milestone tests. I like the idea that testing can happen outside of a weekly meeting. During a meeting, it's nice to have cadets who can focus completely on their staff positions and decision making. As you said, decision making is an on the spot practice.

[MSG Mac]

HAving the On-line tests ave a lot of time for me and I can update the records at my leisure. The number of cadets who fail an open book test amazes me, so I don't think it's a major difference from what we would normally have during a meeting. I have seen some 100%

[coudano]

Why did NHQ decide to allow all open book testing online for cadets? For that matter (off subject) why for the Yeager award?

I think this just opens the realm for cadets to loose sight of what the promotion process is. Learning, that is what it is about, learning aerospace and leadership. Open book testing just allows cadets to open the internet and their book and pass with a score of 100% without learning a single thing. USAF would never go for this for promotion testing, I hope. Testing should be done in person on paper in front of a testing officer. Of your cadets, how fast do they promote with online testing, and how fast do the ones who test in person advance, and which ones are better leaders, in the sense of knowing what they need to know? The knowledge that cadets get from their leadership manual needs to be in the mind not in the book. When a decision needs to be made there generally isn't enough time to consult a book. Decision making is an on the spot practice, not a consult the book question.

This is the paradigm shift that a lot of people aren't getting yet...
Historically, the primary expectation for accomplishment toward promotion has been the closed book timed tests.  That was the measuring stick for when you were ready to advance.  (incidentally, in my experience, most cadets just memorize regurgitate and flush; and furthermore the ACTUAL keys to the leadership kingdom weren't in the textbook, it was just a bunch of book theory, the actual leadership was learned in lab, and at seminars or classes that supplemented the curriculum).

The new system is designed to REDUCE the significance of those tests,
and REPLACE that significance with the commander's judgement on the cadet's improvement and mastery of the phase leadership expectations found in CAPR 52-16.

I can get on board with that, in theory.
However, it presents problems in practice.

That said, for my money, the new materials are more difficult than the old materials, and the construction of the new materials *drastically* increases the level of mastery required over the L2K stuff.  For a measure designed to reduce the importance of the academics, they are actually harder, if you do them the way they were designed to be done.  In my estimation (and i've studied the materials and taken the tests) we are talking about a much larger delta in mastery than just raising the passing score by 10%...   even with the open book, it's simply more difficult.  The material is more complex (and there is a lot more material), and the questions are more granular.  Chapter 2 has FIFTY (50) learning objectives!!!  Each of those objectives may have multiple questions in the possible question pool... and only 25 of them at most (guess which 25... random!) may be chosen from.  So you learn the other 25+ in great detail just incase you get asked them, even if you never do...

I think it might be TOO hard for some of our youngest and more immature cadets, or those with academic aptitude challenges.  Cadets who were failing the L2k with scores in the 50's or lower, don't stand a chance with this new stuff, as designed.

But the main challenge at my squadron so far has been getting cadets through the technical hoops just to log in and even *attempt* the test in the first place...  So far, ZERO of my cadets that joined since July 1st have so much as attempted L2L chapter 1...  it's starting to become problematic for morale and possibly retention, to the point where it's becoming unacceptable

[Al Sayre]

I've had a lot of problems with cadets either timing out, losing connections, or getting kicked out of the server.  Most of these Cadets are still on dial up...  I've started a general policy of after the 3rd try online, I just print a test and have them take it at the squadron, timed & open book (we shred the tests after they complete them).  So far I've had 1 fail, but most were either 92% or 96%.

[Cms.sloane]

I took the same test 6 times over and over again. It was a real pain in the ass because i passes all six times, national said that because i was using google chrome the system didnt read the passing grade. Somethings just amaze me.

[tsrup]

I took the same test 6 times over and over again. It was a real pain in the ass because i passes all six times, national said that because i was using google chrome the system didnt read the passing grade. Somethings just amaze me.

Well at least now there is a warning in big bold red letters.

[Ron1319]

The first problem we encountered using Windows 7 and IE was that you have to click "no" on the second warning about wanting to download secure and insecure information in order for the test to begin.  If they click the wrong box, they're locked out and I had to go unlock it for them. 

The second problem is that especially for cadet officer online testing we have found results not recorded as the previous cadet reported.  I'm having the cadets screen capture or print the results page and I am entering them manually as I am absolutely positive that our past cadet commander was capable of both not using Chrome and of clicking the "finish" button. 

We have also had two cadets who have had information in the system changed by national.  They have taken written exams before this data was changed and instead of changing the data in the database, they've apparently started a new database entry and their previous exam results were lost.  I had a parents standing there telling me that their child had passed an exam and what was I supposed to do?  I gave them the promotion and asked them to go do it again online so that we could see if the system was working correctly.  It was their first promotion and I believe it was a serious "customer service" issue. 

As far as the system, I find many cadets do not pass the exam and are not used to preparing for timed open book exams.  They are also often lazy and do not want to use the entire 30 minutes to go back and review their information.  Fortunately, we have good senior cadets who are now learning to mentor them and we're working through the issues.  I appreciate the time savings at meetings if we can iron out the problems.  Hopefully, they'll get the rest of the c/officer exams online soon.

Ron

[Eclipse]

The first problem we encountered using Windows 7 and IE...

You were pretty much cooked right there, especially with IE.  If we can impart a single lesson on our cadets during their entire
cadet career, it should be "don't use IE, ever..."

It is 2010, if NHQ is writing anything that is browser-specific, they need to shut if off now and move away from their computers.
This is a basic selection form with a simple score afterward.  Cadets should be able (and expected) to take this on their PC, MAC, iPad,
iTouch, or even their cel phones...

For the record I have taken a cadet test (for snicks) with Chrome and had no issues.

[Paul Creed III]

Firefox 4.0 Beta 7 with the latest version of Flash installed seems to work just fine.

[EMT-83]

You were pretty much cooked right there, especially with IE.  If we can impart a single lesson on our cadets during their entire cadet career, it should be "don't use IE, ever..."

What a boat-load of crap.

When was the last time you saw a Help Wanted ad that specified that the applicant be proficient in Google Chrome and Open Office?

It is 2010, if NHQ is writing anything that is browser-specific, they need to shut if off now and move away from their computers.
This is a basic selection form with a simple score afterward.  Cadets should be able (and expected) to take this on their PC, MAC, iPad, iTouch, or even their cel phones...

In the real world, applications are written to be browser-specific. Companies don't have the resources to test applications because some users want to be kewl. Make it work, then move on to the next hundred items on the to-do list.

[a2capt]

Funny, I've neve seen a job description asking to be proficient with a browser.

An office package, yes. Browser? LOL.

Truth be told, if the web applications are written according to the publish standard, not Microsoft's version of it, they don't have to worry about every browser, and that puts the issues that do arise into the browser developers camp.

IE is on the retreat.

[Eclipse]

You were pretty much cooked right there, especially with IE.  If we can impart a single lesson on our cadets during their entire cadet career, it should be "don't use IE, ever..."

What a boat-load of crap.

When was the last time you saw a Help Wanted ad that specified that the applicant be proficient in Google Chrome and Open Office?

It is 2010, if NHQ is writing anything that is browser-specific, they need to shut if off now and move away from their computers.
This is a basic selection form with a simple score afterward.  Cadets should be able (and expected) to take this on their PC, MAC, iPad, iTouch, or even their cel phones...

In the real world, applications are written to be browser-specific. Companies don't have the resources to test applications because some users want to be kewl. Make it work, then move on to the next hundred items on the to-do list.

Browser independence has nothing to do with being "kewl", and everything with to do publishing to standards and insuring your application is accessible to the widest user base possible.

Anyone who knows how to spell "PC" knows that IE has a history of security and performance issues, which is where the comment was aimed at.  Show me a PC loaded with crapware, redirecting links, and infected with a virus, and 90% of the time it is an less technical user
running IE as their main brower.

As to the want ads these days - if you are a web developer or in marketing and want to be taken seriously, you don't write code that only works on IE. Period.

[coudano]

You were pretty much cooked right there, especially with IE.  If we can impart a single lesson on our cadets during their entire cadet career, it should be "don't use IE, ever..."

What a boat-load of crap.

When was the last time you saw a Help Wanted ad that specified that the applicant be proficient in Google Chrome and Open Office?

Never.  But I can show you about 60 bathousand offices that *FORCE* specific browser uses and plugin/add-on configs using policy.  And whose internal apps "only run on IE" because they hired an MS developer to make them.

And I can show you another 60 bathousand cases of security compromises that are specifically IE/activex/js related that are not vuln in other browsers.

For the record I have taken a cadet test (for snicks) with Chrome and had no issues.

Yeah, but because you are a senior member, your score was never (supposed to be) recorded anyway, which is supposedly the thing that is broken in chrome.
So unless you logged in as a cadet, and took the test, and the score did record...
yeah.

That said, i'm pretty sure I used chrome during the field tests, and it worked for me then...

[Paul Creed III]

Last time I took one of the cadet online tests in Chrome, the print was literally microscopic. I heard from one of my cadets that it was the same for them as well.

While Internet Explorer may have a somewhat bad reputation, Microsoft has taken numerous strides in recent years to greatly lock-down the browser. While IE 8 may not be the fastest or the greatest out there, it has become a respectable browser. Older versions: well, that's just an open door, inviting malware to take residence. And no browser, no matter what it is, can make up for a end user who doesn't know any better. Doesn't matter what kind of gun the sentry carries; if they don't understand how it works or how to use it, the bad guy can still get past the gate.

[Eclipse]

Last time I took one of the cadet online tests in Chrome, the print was literally microscopic. I heard from one of my cadets that it was the same for them as well.

CTRL+ (repeat as necessary)

While Internet Explorer may have a somewhat bad reputation, Microsoft has taken numerous strides in recent years to greatly lock-down the browser. While IE 8 may not be the fastest or the greatest out there, it has become a respectable browser.

And no browser, no matter what it is, can make up for a end user who doesn't know any better.

Doesn't matter what kind of gun the sentry carries; if they don't understand how it works or how to use it, the bad guy can still get past the gate.

I agree and disagree.  If you are intent on loading browser toolbars, sending your friends ecards, and inserting
wacky animations in your sig line, you deserve what you get, however vulnerabilities which aren't there in the first place make up for people who don't read pop-up boxes, and reduce the drive-bys.

In your analogy of a firearm, you don't give the newb who might point it at himself the model with the
flaky safety and unlimited ammo.

[HGjunkie]

I've gotta step in on the browser wars going on:

Fact: IE is the most widely-used browser to date.

With that out of the way, I have used Vista and IE for 3 1/2 years. Never had any problems except for maybe some lag issues. I started out using IE7, and am now on the IE9 beta version. Again, never had a problem. Security isn't an issue if you have good antivirus *cough*the FREE download of AVG corporate edition from e-Services*/cough* and firewall (again the AVG download). Also, it may help if people had enough common sense to know that most of the stuff on the web is crap/infected. But then again, common sense isn't so common these days.

You were pretty much cooked right there, especially with IE.  If we can impart a single lesson on our cadets during their entire cadet career, it should be "don't use IE, ever..."

Yeah. no.

[Ron1319]

For the record I am an extremely technical power user and sometimes web developer with years in the computer engineering industry.  My assumption is always that any code is first tested in IE because for my website more than 60% of the users access the page with IE.  I have Chrome, IE and Firefox on my PC and I use Safari and Firefox on my MBA. 

I find it extremely interesting that none of the conversation since my post has anything to do with specifically the issues I cited in my post or how to overcome them, and only about proper web development which is neither the intent of the thread nor helpful to the discussion.

Ron

[SarDragon]

Welcome to CAP Talk. 

[Daniel]

Fact: IE is the most widely-used browser to date.

not correct, according to multiple sources:
http://social.wakoopa.com/categories/internet/browsers (My personal favourite)
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

Firefox pwns IE since late '09.

My school uses Firefox and I use Chromium on my Linux machine at home.
Which brings me to: Does anyone know if the problem affects Chromium (The Linux and OSX counterpart of chrome)?
The only thing I see says nay, but I'd be angry if I took a test just to have it not record the score.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I don't know why I keep coming back to this thread, it has nothing to do with cadet testing at all anymore.

[HGjunkie]

Fact: IE is the most widely-used browser to date.

not correct, according to multiple sources:
http://social.wakoopa.com/categories/internet/browsers (My personal favourite)
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

Firefox pwns IE since late '09.

ORLY?

[a2capt]

The statistics prove nothing except that they all do show a fairly decent decrease over the years of IE usage, looking earlier I saw some that showed Fx3 with a 10-15% lead over IE, with IE under the 50% mark.  Others show what you see here.

There are 92 different places to get statistics, and when looking for one "you" (people) tend to stop when they find one they like.

in the end, the point is, if the web applications are developed to standards instead of "with IE" then they get a wider audience.

As for being on topic, it sort of is. Perhaps an actual problem is identified and then a solution is reached. Right now, I think I'm going to have the cadet I'm having problems with take their next (first) test on a computer at the unit and see if I can get him to do "exactly" what he's doing at home, that he keeps showing as locked out and having opened it too many times without finishing. He swears it's been under a half hour.


Has anyone received their unit copies of the new tests/manuals? It's getting to about that time for those who joined at 1-July to be promoting en-mass... I bought copies at the NB VG store, but I've yet to receive anything from NHQ.

[coudano]

we had to request our milestones by emailing ms sharon jackson
we had them within a week.

[shlebz]

with my cadets i have noticed that they are having difficulties passing the tests and completely understanding the material.

[Майор Хаткевич]

with my cadets i have noticed that they are having difficulties passing the tests and completely understanding the material.

Ask them why. Most of the time it's because "I kinda did it last minute, and bombed it". Kids these days seem to think google and ctrl+f is the way to do things.

[coudano]

If you are quite proficient with reading and computer skills,
you can control F and pass the test without reading the chapter

MOST cadets are not quite at that level...

I've watched a lot of my cadets think they can go take the test without studying, and rely on the open book thing saving them, and then barely pass, or not pass.

The ones who actually study first, and then try it, typically get high 90's or 100's.


I still see poor retention.  Go back and ask a C/SrA something from chapter 1, and see if they can remember it...
That's no different from the old system however


And I still see some users having trouble navigating the 28 step process of registrations and CBT's to get in to take the test in the first place.

[Ron1319]

I still have at least one case a month where cadets take a test online, say that they passed it, hit submit, and it does not log in the database.  They have all been asked to print the "passing" screen every single time, and immediately go into their progression data in eServices to check and see if the test recorded. 

[MSG Mac]

with my cadets i have noticed that they are having difficulties passing the tests and completely understanding the material.

Ask them why. Most of the time it's because "I kinda did it last minute, and bombed it". Kids these days seem to think google and ctrl+f is the way to do things.

While the tests are "open book", the book should be opened before the test is taken and studied for several hours before the test. I tell my cadets to read the book, learn the material, and then take the test. There are too many cadets who think all they have to do is open the book and search for the answers.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I still see poor retention.  Go back and ask a C/SrA something from chapter 1, and see if they can remember it...

I grew up with L2K and 70% passing closed book paper tests. I've also been gone from activity for 3 years due to college.

BUT, last night I sat in on a review board for a 12 year old C/SrA who had passed all the requirements for the Wright Brothers Award, and was truly impressed by his responses to questions. He wasn't asked things like "Who was Curry?", but more along the lines of what he expected his role as an NCO to be, how he would deal with certain situations, why he should be considered for a staff position, and what he likes and does not like about the unit (and how to improve it). To my surprise, his answers were very impressive, and it was clear that he grasped the material he learned. I wish a 1/10th of 12 year olds could think like this cadet. Maybe he's the exception, but I was under the impression that the new material was drastically different from L2K, but his answers were so spot on with what I learned that it made me want to crack open these new leadership books to see why he grasped the concepts so well.

[coudano]

Maybe he's the exception

I expect, probably so.

Take a wider sample, and let me know if i'm out in left field.

[Ron1319]

I think that your expectations may be unrealistic.  Clearly that cadet is going to be exceptional and if provided a good program will and should be a future Spaatz cadet. 

My expectations for a 12 year old are:

1) They read the material
2) They gain some understanding of it
3) They pass the test while being allowed to look stuff up in the book quickly with knowledge of where to look based on their study time
4) They apply that knowledge as they progress through the program and as they mature with age

They can reference back on the applicable material, but as with life and all studies, I expect them to gain a more thorough understanding of leadership by "doing" than through reading about it in the book.  Hopefully the material provides them some framework, some motivation, and gets them to consider the concepts.  The cadets staff and their CAP leadership experience should reflect many of the concepts.

Many of them are also abstract and exposure is adequate.  I doubt Maslow's Hierarchy comes up very frequently in many of our considerations when making management decisions in our daily business life.  People intuitively understand that their employees want time to have fun and be with their loved ones.  We also understand that they need breaks to eat.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Ron,

I was 13 when I joined CAP. I took the tests closed book. I learned the material. It's not hard. As much as I love google and ctrl+f, it's not the way to learn, just to pass.

[titanII]

I find that if a cadet does it the "right way"- reading the chapter several times, studying a proper amount, and taking the test online- then the cadet can not only pass the test with 90's or 100's but also retain a good bit of the info learned. But (obviously) there are going to be more cadets whose aim is to pass, not retain info.

[Ron1319]

Read the chapter "several times" as in more than twice?  I don't think that is a proper study habit to be teaching or encouraging.  I would never have survived freshman year of high school much less engineering school if I over studied to that degree. 

I have taken several of the Phase I and II exams in aerospace and leadership to determine the difficulty level of the material.  I have passed several without opening the book.  The level of difficulty now is higher because they're trying to make exams that are conducive to open book testing.  The problem is that many of the questions are misleading in an attempt to be too tricky rather than test understanding.  They are not, however, college level courses that require great depth of understanding and countless hours of study in order to pass the tests.  They're simple, even for many 12 year olds.

Don't make it harder than it is, or your cadet progression rates will reflect that.

[Майор Хаткевич]

As a C/NCO I began to do this:

Read Chapter
Read Chapter and highlight key words
Read highlighted key words, make notes
(On way to meeting) Go over highlighted key words.

I never again failed a test doing that.

I found retention also went up if I actually copied the highlighted words/notes on paper.

When I was the C/CC, the cadets that followed that system passed their tests and progressed better than their peers.

Do I do that in college? Of course not. Then again, 90% of what I'm "learning" I won't use past the final exam.

[titanII]

Read the chapter "several times" as in more than twice?  I don't think that is a proper study habit to be teaching or encouraging.  I would never have survived freshman year of high school much less engineering school if I over studied to that degree. 

I don't think that is over-studying. CAP is an extracurricular activity, which, like every other, needs to have some time at home put into it. I wasn't suggesting that the cadets over-study or waste their time. I was just suggesting a strategy so that cadets would pass easily and retain that info.
YMMV