Civilian jacket in CAP uniform

[Stonewall]

I've been in CAP 25 years and have never considered this an issue.  If it's cold outside and you don't have an "official" CAP cold weather jacket to wear with your uniform, it's simple, throw on what keeps you warm.

I looked through 39-1 and couldn't find it via a quick search, but doesn't it say, somewhere, that civilian coats/jackets are authorized if weather calls for it.  I mean, we're bubble wrapping our cadets in every other way, I figured this would be 100% legit and in writing.

Or, is this something in the GTM handbook?

Situation:  Being inactive, I stopped by (in uniform) to visit my squadron to see how things are going.  A nice guy, a CAP Captain and retired Army E8, was correcting a C/1st Lt on wearing a civilian jacket with his blues and told the cadet to reference 39-1.  The cadet said, "but it's a safety issue"...yadda yadda. The SM was adamant about him not wearing the jacket because it wasn't an official CAP uniform jacket.

I think it's a non-issue, but wanted to quote a reg for the "new guy" who is referencing 39-1.  Personally, I think it's a common sense thing, and not an issue at all.

[Майор Хаткевич]

They are cadets - safety first.

Tell him that if he wants to get everyone PROPER outerwear, he is free to do so. Otherwise he can shut up and be unhappy.

[krnlpanick]

My take is that (like many other things in the 39-1) this is completely open to interpretation. For the AF-Style uniforms it never explicitly states that civilian outergarmets are authorized or permitted. For CDUs (CAP Distinctive Uniforms) it prescribes what outergarmets are allowed. The only exception to this is the AF Flight Suit and Flight Jacket combination. So from a purely regulation perspective one could say that

a) The regulation does not authorize the wear of civilian outergarmets with the AF style uniform or;
b) The regulation does not prohibit the wear of civilian outergarmets with the AF style uniform.

That being said, living in Colorado, I know at least some of our squadrons have a mandate that coats are mandatory, uniform or civilian throughout the winter months. As the cadet stated, this is a safety issue. While it would be awesome if there was enough supply for every cadet in my squadron to have an all-weather double breasted overcoat for their blues and a field jacket for their BDUs this is simply not a reality. Until CAP starts dispensing annual uniform allowances like AD does I don't see that ever becoming the reality either. The cadet is absolutely right in this case as in CAP we say, "Safety First!"

[Eclipse]

Only the outerwear specifically authorized by 39-1 is allowed with USAF-Style uniforms, civilian outerwear is prohibited at all times.

Search the word "Outergarments" it will show you that with the distinctiveness combos civilian outergarments are specifically authorized,
while with the USAF style uniforms no such authorization exists.

I agree that with cadets the emphasis is safety first, however I always made it clear they they were, in fact, in violation of the
regs, but because of their "protected" status as cadets, we would look the other way.  With seniors I never afforded the same
lee-way.  I also made a point to ask cadets to wear the most subdued outerwear they had to make them stand out less, but there were
always one of two that insisted on wearing a sparkly bright pink "Hello Kitty" jacket.

This KB answer indicates what is allowed:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1190/kw/civilian%20outerwear

And this one, updated last week, calls out the prohibition on mixing distinctive with USAF uniforms:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1445/kw/civilian%20outerwear

a) The regulation does not authorize the wear of civilian outergarmets with the AF style uniform or;
b) The regulation does not prohibit the wear of civilian outergarmets with the AF style uniform.

FTFY.  The reg is very clear on both.  Only what is authorized may be worn, no exceptions.

[Stonewall]

So, what I am assuming, is that while the well meaning Captain is correct, civilian jackets are not authorized, common sense would should tell you that if it's 50 degrees out and the cadet is cold, to either let him wear the jacket, or bring everyone inside.

[Майор Хаткевич]

So, what I am assuming, is that while the well meaning Captain is correct, civilian jackets are not authorized, common sense would should tell you that if it's 50 degrees out and the cadet is cold, to either let him wear the jacket, or bring everyone inside.

50 Degrees!?

Oh wow. 50 Degrees and I'm all good in a short sleeve.

Forgot we're in different climates.

[Stonewall]

So, what I am assuming, is that while the well meaning Captain is correct, civilian jackets are not authorized, common sense would should tell you that if it's 50 degrees out and the cadet is cold, to either let him wear the jacket, or bring everyone inside.

50 Degrees!?

Oh wow. 50 Degrees and I'm all good in a short sleeve.

Forgot we're in different climates.

Yeah, well it's in the 70s today so a lot of the cadets that have grown up in these parts aren't particularly familiar with "colder" weather.

[Майор Хаткевич]

So, what I am assuming, is that while the well meaning Captain is correct, civilian jackets are not authorized, common sense would should tell you that if it's 50 degrees out and the cadet is cold, to either let him wear the jacket, or bring everyone inside.

50 Degrees!?

Oh wow. 50 Degrees and I'm all good in a short sleeve.

Forgot we're in different climates.

Yeah, well it's in the 70s today so a lot of the cadets that have grown up in these parts aren't particularly familiar with "colder" weather.

Fully understandable - point still stands.

I woud LOVE to see all cadets uniform at all times, but they get the basic blues with the FCU, not the whole shabang.

[Eclipse]

So, what I am assuming, is that while the well meaning Captain is correct, civilian jackets are not authorized, common sense would should tell you that if it's 50 degrees out and the cadet is cold, to either let him wear the jacket, or bring everyone inside.

Yes on all counts.

[krnlpanick]

FTFY.  The reg is very clear on both.  Only what is authorized may be worn, no exceptions.

The KB article is extremely clear - the regulation is IMHO open to interpretation. I am not finding anything in the regulation that states that Only Authorized Outgarments are permitted with the AF-Style Uniform.

[Eclipse]

FTFY.  The reg is very clear on both.  Only what is authorized may be worn, no exceptions.

The KB article is extremely clear - the regulation is IMHO open to interpretation. I am not finding anything in the regulation that states that Only Authorized Outgarments are permitted with the AF-Style Uniform.

CAPM 39-1 Page 5:
1-1. Policy.  CAP members are authorized to wear CAP distinctive uniforms as well as
uniforms similar to the U.S. Air Force.  Civil Air Patrol uses distinctive emblems, insignia, and
badges to identify individuals wearing the AF-style uniforms as CAP members.  Wear of the
AF-style uniforms, as well as the insignia, badges, and devices worn on these uniforms are as
prescribed by the Commander,  CAP-USAF, with the approval  of Headquarters USAF.  See
Tables 1-1 through 1-3 for information on wearing the uniform, dress and appearance, where to
purchase uniform items, and grooming standards. Civil Air Patrol prescribes wear policy and the
use of CAP emblems, insignia, and badges on the CAP distinctive uniforms.  Table 1-3
describes items that may be authorized by wing/region commanders.  COMPLIANCE WITH
THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized.
Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear. NOTE: CAPMart may sell items
that are not authorized for wear with the USAF–style or CAP distinctive uniforms.  This
publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform
combinations as prescribed within.

If it doesn't say you "can", you "can't".

There is specific verbiage in the wear tables authorizing
civilian outergarments for the distinctive uniforms.  No such verbiage is published in regards to
USAF style uniform.

[LGM30GMCC]

This is one of the more contentious issues that can come up. Usually what it comes down to is will individual commander's turn a blind eye to this particular issue for the sake of mission accomplishment and safety. Some fanatics argue both sides of the coin; but the general operating view tends to be...If you're doing something in public, in the cold weather, you need to find ways to keep your people warm and in regs. If you're doing something in 'private' in the cold, you need to do things to keep your people warm.

The letter of the law is 'If you can't do it in uniform, you probably shouldn't be doing it.'

Now there are some solutions that can meet both the letter of the law and the 'don't let 'em freeze' mentality. Namely, put all your cadets into BBDUs during events where they are going to get cold. Presto! Now they can wear whatever jackets they want/have!

There is also the issue that the uniform reg simply DOES NOT have appropriate outwear for all climates all the time. Even the Gortex or M65 field jacket (The warmest jackets we have in the uniform manual) for BDUs are not always sufficient. Speaking as someone who has lived in the Northern Tier for the last 8 years, if the USAF is breaking out the APEX parkas or even using the old-ratty 'seriously we didn't get rid of those in the 80's?!' style jackets, for wear from car to building...we probably should be wearing an equivalent.

The argument often devolves into "If you're ignoring 39-1 what else are you ignoring? Hm hm?" versus "SAFETY ABOVE ALL! LET 'EM WEAR BRIGHT PINK GLOVES IF IT KEEPS THEM WARM". Both are the fanatical extremes.

But hey...this is why we have commanders. Ultimately they're the ones that are going to get schwacked if they make a call that the commander higher up on the food chain disagrees with.

[Blues Brother]

well,  I have to say this shouldnt even be an issue.   Whatever happened to common sense?  if people are cold,  they need jackets.  period.  end of story.  I am talking about northern climes, it gets cold.  I mean REALLY cold.  how can people be expected to complete missions if they are freezing?   it dont work.    I guess the part that gets me is some level of consideration has to be given for this.  people that volunteer to be in CAP pay for their uniforms, and they can be expensive.  the winter jacket thing is really expensive. so I think some consideration should be given to let people stay warm.   I mean this isnt like people are issue uniforms at no cost and they are just refusing to wear them, there is a money issue involved here.  and just being practical.

[Eclipse]

^ Buy the proper uniform and dress in layers, that >is< actually an option.

[RogueLeader]

well,  I have to say this shouldnt even be an issue.   Whatever happened to common sense?  if people are cold,  they need jackets.  period.  end of story.  I am talking about northern climes, it gets cold.  I mean REALLY cold.  how can people be expected to complete missions if they are freezing?   it dont work.    I guess the part that gets me is some level of consideration has to be given for this.  people that volunteer to be in CAP pay for their uniforms, and they can be expensive.  the winter jacket thing is really expensive. so I think some consideration should be given to let people stay warm.   I mean this isnt like people are issue uniforms at no cost and they are just refusing to wear them, there is a money issue involved here.  and just being practical.

The really practical thing is to mention what the uniform requirements are, before they join, so they KNOW what is expected of them ahead of time.

[ol'fido]

Only the outerwear specifically authorized by 39-1 is allowed with USAF-Style uniforms, civilian outerwear is prohibited at all times.

Search the word "Outergarments" it will show you that with the distinctiveness combos civilian outergarments are specifically authorized,
while with the USAF style uniforms no such authorization exists.

I agree that with cadets the emphasis is safety first, however I always made it clear they they were, in fact, in violation of the
regs, but because of their "protected" status as cadets, we would look the other way.  With seniors I never afforded the same
lee-way.  I also made a point to ask cadets to wear the most subdued outerwear they had to make them stand out less, but there were
always one of two that insisted on wearing a sparkly bright pink "Hello Kitty" jacket.

This KB answer indicates what is allowed:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1190/kw/civilian%20outerwear

And this one, updated last week, calls out the prohibition on mixing distinctive with USAF uniforms:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1445/kw/civilian%20outerwear

a) The regulation does not authorize the wear of civilian outergarmets with the AF style uniform or;
b) The regulation does not prohibit the wear of civilian outergarmets with the AF style uniform.

FTFY.  The reg is very clear on both.  Only what is authorized may be worn, no exceptions.

Back when Col. Burrell was wing CC. (He was just before Joe King wasn't he), IL wing had a policy that in the absence of any available uniform jacket, cadets could wear an "appropriate" civilian jacket.  Seniors still had to wear only authorized coats. If that survived or was ever included in any supplement, I don't know. I just know that it was announced as policy at some ES training I attended. Just saying...

[Dad2-4]

^ Buy the proper uniform ....

As Blues Brothers stated, money is a real issue with many members, both cadets and seniors. Having worked with cadets from the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum, the only uniform they owned was the basic blues issued to them upon joining, and BDUs issued by the unit. They simply could not afford to buy more. Even their insignia, name tapes, etc had to be funded through other contributors.
As to civilian outerwear, we've always handled it like my school district did concerning wearing of school uniforms: When you get inside, take the jacket and other non uniform items off.
We also required those participating in outdoor cold weather public appearances to be in proper uniform.

[Eclipse]

If that survived or was ever included in any supplement, I don't know. I just know that it was announced as policy at some ES training I attended. Just saying...

It never was and doesn't.  No one is saying it isn't common sense, but it's not part of any formal wing policies.

[Blues Brother]

^ Buy the proper uniform ....

As Blues Brothers stated, money is a real issue with many members, both cadets and seniors. Having worked with cadets from the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum, the only uniform they owned was the basic blues issued to them upon joining, and BDUs issued by the unit. They simply could not afford to buy more. Even their insignia, name tapes, etc had to be funded through other contributors.
As to civilian outerwear, we've always handled it like my school district did concerning wearing of school uniforms: When you get inside, take the jacket and other non uniform items off.
We also required those participating in outdoor cold weather public appearances to be in proper uniform.

I agree,  wear civilian jackets in cold weather outside, and remove them inside.  simple.    not everyone can afford all the uniforms required. even senior members.  Things like house payments, car payments,  heat, lights, utilities, food, diapers, etc... all take priority, and some folks just dont have the money to shell out for these extras.  but they still have the desire to be involved and help out and be a part of a good organization.  times are hard right now for some folks.  the economy still isnt rolling, and many folks are living paycheck to paycheck.   

[RiverAux]

If you have the field jacket with liner you're going to be pretty good to go for the winter in most of the country most of the time for most activities. 

If you're regularly operating outside when a field jacket/liner won't cut it, then your Wing should have a supplement authorizing optional items.  If your wing doesn't have that, someone just hasn't been doing their job.

Now, how much am I willing to spend for uniform outwear just to get from the car to the meeting place?  Not much. I'll gut it out without a heavy jacket.