DRAFT 60-3 posted for comments

[RiverAux]

I took 300/400 with a bunch of firemen and policemen and since all the scenarios are fire and police oriented, it probably worked out for the best.  The scenarios were all part of the text and I don't know how much latitude is allowed to use different ones, but they would be a little tricky for a room full of CAP people to deal with.  Not impossible, but it would definetely make the CAP people wonder why they're taking this police and fire course.. 

Incidentally, although CAP's ICS training has been weak, at least we're pretty familiar with the titles and the organization. 

[isuhawkeye]

We need at least a year to get this done and will need to be prepared to lose 10-20% of our ES qualified members, and not just the people who have been doing the minimum to maintain their qualifications.

And this is the same group who was openly hostile to Iowa's program.

The former OTS has put officers into the field with 100, 200, 700 completed.

[RiverAux]

No, I don't think so.  This is a more general problem.  The more training requirements you put on volunteers, the fewer volunteers who will have the desire or the time to complete them.  You will see about the same "resistence" whether the course is absolutely outstanding and will increase your capabilities 20 fold as you would for a course that most people agree is a waste of time. 

It is even worse when you're telling somebody that has been qualifed, and perhaps even very active in a role for a long time that they must do more new training or lose the qualification.  They will feel that their years of experience are being "dissed" and will not be happy about the change. 

I'm just saying that we need to be aware of this ahead of time and be prepared for it.  Its not like we have a real choice in the matter so we'll just have to take the consequences.  However, if there is any way to mitigate the impact of the new requirements (such as stretching out the time period over which they can be met), we should do it if at all possible. 

[ZigZag911]

I'd like to see 12 months from the effective date of new 60-3 as deadline for completing ICS 300/400 for upper level mission managers.

I think those within CAP in a position to serve as instructors or get courses scheduled need to do all they reasonably can to make 300 & 400 available on weekends and evenings, in member friendly locations (no 300 mile drives)

[floridacyclist]

I'm just saying that we need to be aware of this ahead of time and be prepared for it.  Its not like we have a real choice in the matter so we'll just have to take the consequences.  However, if there is any way to mitigate the impact of the new requirements (such as stretching out the time period over which they can be met), we should do it if at all possible. 

We have been aware of it for some time....and many of us have been telling folks that they need to prepare to avoid being caught in the rush. It has been stretched out for several years already.

My only regret is that we'll be on the road on our bike trip during the main transition and won't be able to hold more classes after our Mar 1-2 one. maybe that's how we can pay for some of our meals on the road 

"Will teach for food!"

Incidentally, I drive 300 miles round trip so that I can organize and teach these classes in a more central location (Ocala rather than Tallahassee). It really doesn't hurt my feelings if others have to drive 300 miles to attend them.

[davedove]

CERT is an excellent tool when used as intended....neighbors cut off from outside help and helping each other until the cavalry arrives. I'm not sure what role it will have in CAP, but considering that the very earliest CERT program was born out of a need to prevent untrained disaster workers from injuring themselves immediately after a disaster or emergency, the training itself is good and useful. Perhaps it should have been included as part of GES.

Moreso, it's probably giving definition to a qualification so that, when we're out there helping our neighbors pick up the debris after their houses got nailed by a tornado, and we're on an AFAM, if something happens, we're acting within our qualification.

I think it's probably a CYA type of qualification for just those situations.  It could be used to help out the neighborhood before a mission is issued, but then we would have to be operating as private citizens, not as CAP.

In all though, it is good training, and there are a few things taught that are not included in Ground Team training, useful skills that everyone can use if the big one hits.

[LittleIronPilot]

I'm just saying that we need to be aware of this ahead of time and be prepared for it.  Its not like we have a real choice in the matter so we'll just have to take the consequences.  However, if there is any way to mitigate the impact of the new requirements (such as stretching out the time period over which they can be met), we should do it if at all possible. 

We have been aware of it for some time....and many of us have been telling folks that they need to prepare to avoid being caught in the rush. It has been stretched out for several years already.

My only regret is that we'll be on the road on our bike trip during the main transition and won't be able to hold more classes after our Mar 1-2 one. maybe that's how we can pay for some of our meals on the road 

"Will teach for food!"

Incidentally, I drive 300 miles round trip so that I can organize and teach these classes in a more central location (Ocala rather than Tallahassee). It really doesn't hurt my feelings if others have to drive 300 miles to attend them.

Just as a point of order...I am a 6-month member and this is the first I have heard of this. I just want people to understand that many of us have not had "years" to get ready for this...

Of course I will work to get the training, but even as active as I am, getting all of that done may be a stretch in the time frame given.

[floridacyclist]

As a 6-month member, you are still new enough that much of this is going to be irrelevant to you for the time being anyway. By the time you need the tough courses (300 and 400), it's going to be well past the cutoff; you don't need ICS300 and 400 to be a GTL or Mission Pilot, you need them to be an IC and it takes a couple of years to become a decently-qualified Command or General Staff member, let alone an IC.

Any org is always going to have new members coming on-board that have to be trained up to speed, and for all practical purposes you are coming in under the new reg. From your standpoint, this is just the route that you have to take to become fully-trained just like a new member who joins next October. Go ahead and knock out the online courses...but actually do your best to learn what they are teaching because the FEMA online technique does not always facilitate the actual learning of the material. With your background in law enforcement, much of this should seem familiar to you anyway. With your background and current position, I wouldn't stop at 400...I would get my Train-the-Trainer so that you can help teach these courses and enable others to meet the standards.

Now that you know what the regs are going to start requiring in a couple more months, there's no reason for you to approach your training from the standpoint of the old standards; the up side is that you will probably have an easier time of it than the people who have been around forever and can't understand why the old standards aren't good enough.

[Ricochet13]

We need at least a year to get this done and will need to be prepared to lose 10-20% of our ES qualified members, and not just the people who have been doing the minimum to maintain their qualifications.

And this is the same group who was openly hostile to Iowa's program.
The former OTS has put officers into the field with 100, 200, 700 completed.

It sure is nice looking at the squadron membership and being glad I (required, coerced, encouraged, supported, advised, recommended - you pick the word) members get the IS-100, 200, 700, & 800 completed, even when it wasn't required.  We're ready now and will probably be able to do the ICS-300 easily before the 28 Sep 2008 deadline.  IAWG had the right idea. 

The four FEMA courses are completed by all new members of the squadron just as they would OPSEC, CPPT, Level I, AEPSM, BCUT, ACUT, UDF, MRO, MSA, MS.  It's our own "in-house" version of OTS.  By the end of 6 months most of these things are completed and we can work on local operational training missions.

[RiverAux]

We have been aware of it for some time....and

People on this board have been aware of it, but not the general membership and it hasn't been something that our leadership has been preparing us for.  And they shouldn't have either because at the time no national NIMS standard had been presented for us to try to achieve.  Could we have jumped the gun and started requiring some of this stuff sooner?  Sure.  Should we have?  Well, probably yes for the 100 and 700 courses because it was pretty much a lock that those would be required for everybody. 

[floridacyclist]

Our ES staff has been preaching this to our membership for the past couple of years from the wing level on down...you can find several mentions of this in the Florida Wing mailing list. If squadron and group ESOs have not seen fit to pass the word, then shame on them. It's not like DHS has kept this a closely-guarded secret and there are many more communications avenues than this board.

I'm not sure who to point fingers at or if blame should be assessed for failing to inform the membership of a decision that was made years ago....perhaps if we were less-insulated from the general emergency-response community, we would not have these issues. Of course, CAP has always preferred operating in it's own little world so that should not be surprising.

At any rate, these rules have been coming down from above for some time now and we can't afford to keep our heads in the sand forever....we just have to deal with the reality that this is required and useful training and git 'r dun.

Besides, between now and Sep should be plenty of time for the courses...only a small handful of our people need all of the classes by Sep due to being ICs and they (along with many other ES specialties including MSA, CUL, Branch Directors, and all Command and General Staff) should already have ICS200; they should have already been working on 300 or 400 to get their 2 or 1 level. At the very worst for a current IC already meeting minimum standards, 8 months should be plenty of time for two 3-hr online courses and two 2-day sit-down courses....it's not like they're being asked to go earn a Doctorate.

[BillB]

One problem I see, is the lack of the 300 and 400 courses being offered. I checked with my County Emergency manager, and there are no 300/400 course weekends or weekdays scheduled.

[RiverAux]

Look on the state emergency mgt agency web page.  They probably have a training schedule and you'll probably find several nearby you in 2008.  These are almost the only classes being taught in my state this year. 

[Ricochet13]

Look on the state emergency mgt agency web page.  They probably have a training schedule and you'll probably find several nearby you in 2008.  These are almost the only classes being taught in my state this year. 

There are also lists available of approved NIMS trainers for these courses.

[floridacyclist]

According to the Florida DEM training calendar ( http://www.floridadisaster.org/trainingcalendar ) there was a 400 course a week or so ago in Ocala, about 30 miles from you. There is also an ICS TTT course in Crystal River, ICS300 training coming up in Mt Dora (Mike Hilliard is an awesome instructor - take any of his classes that you can), and a CERT TTT class in Madison Co, all in Feb.

In Mar, we have a 4-day training block with an ICS300 class in Tallahassee Mar 10-12, followed by ICS400 in Mar 13-14, plus ICS300 in Winter Park a week or so later.

With the exception of Tallahassee, all of these locations are within an hour or two's drive of Gainesville....with 4 days training in  a row, even Tallahassee is not that far away.

If my contact at the Ocala Fire College will ever confirm, there is training scheduled for the weekend of Mar 1-2 out between Ocala and Gainesville.

There are 3 simultaneous classes:

1) 100/200/700/800 - Instructed by: Yours Truly
2) ICS300 - Instructed by: Lee Newsome, owner of Emergency Response Education and Consultants
3) ICS400 - Instructed by: Mike Hilliard, Lake-Sumter Co EMS Training Coordinator

Classes will end early on Sun for a 3-hr tabletop exercise of the Minneapolis Bridge collapse put together by Mr Hilliard

http://www.tallahasseecap.org/ICS has most of the details although I am waiting for confirmation of the dates to update the page from our last ICS academy...it still shows the last dates and our old class schedule, but between what is there and what is above you can figure out what we are doing.

I haven't set a raindate just yet, but we may have to...if so, it will be in May as Apr is booked solid for us and we leave at the beginning of June for a 4-mo bike ride. You can see the write-up from our last academy at http://flwg.us/database/database/news.asp?action=print&article=495 - they butchered my story and the picture is not even mine (the one I sent in showed the group commander, another SM, a cadet and a fire chief working on an exercise together) but they got the general gist across.

Considering that this story was posted on the front page of the FL Wing website (and I think it might have made it to NHQ as well - I know that Volunteer covered us), someone in the chain of command should have been able to see this coming a while back; why they chose not to pass the word on is anyone's guess but it is still our job to salute and execute.

[jayleswo]

After reviewing the Draft 60-3 and researching what it takes to be NIMS/SEMS complaint, I found a document on the California OES website "Emergency Responder Credentialing Program" which incorporates information from NIMS at the federal level into a state sponsored program. See below

http://www.oes.ca.gov/Operational/OESHome.nsf/PDF/Emergency%20Responder%20Credentialing%20Program/$file/State%20OES%20Credentialing%20Program%203-1-07.pdf

It's not just about completing courses like ICS-400, it also includes criteria and qualifications beyond that. For example, Incident Commander requires "1 year as an upper level department manager (i.e. fire service Chief Officer, law enforcement Sergeant or above, Environmental Health Chief, Superintendent, etc.)." I'm all for raising the bar and meeting state and federal requirements, but this will be a major effort for us from what I read.

Revision 1.1 Page D4 of D22 3/1/07
SEMS Level: Field
SEMS Position: *Incident Commander (IC) – For All Type 1-5 Incidents
Certification:
• SEMS "Equivalent" Field Level Course – ACI Orientation, Basic Modules 1-6, Intermediate
Modules 7-11, and Advance Modules 12-17
  Or ICS 100-400, NWCG ICS Courses, etc.
• IS-700 NIMS "Equivalent" Overview Training
  Or SEMS/ICS/NIMS Combined Course, POST NIMS/SEMS Basic Course, etc.
• IS 800 National Response Plan Training
• Medically and physically fit to complete multiple Operational Periods.

Qualifications:
• 1 year as an upper level department manager (i.e. fire service Chief Officer, law enforcement
Sergeant or above, Environmental Health Chief, Superintendent, etc.).
  Or designated as a field "IC" in the local Emergency Plan
• 1 multi agency incident as a "Unit Leader" or "Group/Division Supervisor" or "Branch Director" or
any "Command" or "General" staff position, with an evaluation of "Satisfactory" or above by the
supervising ICS position
• 2 "complex" multi-agency incident experiences, by actually filling an IC (or Deputy IC) position at
an Incident Command Post (ICP), with an evaluation of "Satisfactory" or above by the Agency
Administrator or supervising ICS position
  Or filling the "IC" position at an ICP during 4 major multi-agency exercises, with an evaluation
of "Satisfactory" or above by the supervising ICS position or evaluator
  Or mentoring under a person filling the "IC" position during 3 "complex" multi-agency
incidents, with an evaluation of "Satisfactory" or above by the supervising ICS position
• If Haz Mat Incident - OES/CSTI or OSHA "Equivalent" Haz Mat Incident Commander Class.
• If Wildland Fire – Must meet Required Training, Prerequisite Experience, Physical Fitness standards,
and complete "Position Task Book" for appropriate position, per CICCS/310-1.
• Any other existing discipline specific certifications, qualifications and standards required by the
proper authority (i.e. CICCS, HEICS/EMSA, SFM, POST, CDHS, etc.).

Credentialing:
• Self-certification will allow for designated governing board, department/agency head or authority to
approve, document, and issue card at level and position for accreditation.
• If certifying through an existing credentialing system (e.g. CICCS) follow those procedures.
• If state certification is requested, OES Deputy Director of Planning and Training shall approve,
document, and issue a "State Credential" card for the SEMS/NIMS level and position per above
criteria and "State Credentialing Processing Procedure" (state position credentialing is voluntary,
but is required for interstate mutual aid and NIMS compliance).
• Refresher requirement may be met by documenting actual incident experiences at the position,
filling equivalent field level ICS positions, drills, exercises or other refresher training in subject
matter, position and/or function listed above within a 5 year period (except Haz Mat IC requires
annual refresher training per OSHA HAZWOPER from the last date of qualification or refresher.

*When position filled by fire personnel, personnel must meet requirements of CICCS and NIMS 700 & 800.

(fixed formatting 1/31/08)

[RiverAux]

Yep, but some of that stuff is still in flux at the national level (IIRC) and I expect some, especially the physical conditioning, to make their way into CAP eventually.  I'm not surprised that CA has already imposed additional standards. 

[isuhawkeye]

standardization is a major effort.

the next step to standardization is resource typing and nationally recognised cridentials.

in the end the IC will call for a resource and that resource should meet the same standards, and no one will be able to hide behind career/volunteer stariotypes

this note posted from a cell phone

[Larry Mangum]

In Washington State, CAP in conjunction with the WSDOT/Aviation SAR Coordinator Tom Peterson, being the transition to NIMS compliance several years ago.  Most of the command staff and general staff are NIMS compliant and we are working on getting the remaining ones there.  All ES qualified members in Washington are required to have completed ICS-100,ICS-200, ICS-500, ICS-700 and ICS-800. In addition, all command and general staff members must complete ICS-300 and ICS-400. Members must then send a copy of their certificates to the state before they can get a state card.  For the in-residence course, we have several CAP members who are state certified instructors and we are holding the classes on a regular basis at Camp Murray. 

I would agree that CAP is behind the power curve on this issue. At the PCR DO conference last May, in Portland Oregeon, I brough the issue of being NIMS compliant up and a good number of the Wing CC's and DO's did not have a clue as to what I was taking about.  That was rather scary to me.

[RiverAux]

I'm not so sure that we are really all that behind.  The 300/400 classes I was in had fire department members from a site that REALLY should have been way ahead of the game.  If they weren't up to date, I don't think CAP is horrendously behind.