DRAFT 60-3 posted for comments

[floridacyclist]

I saw that too....makes me wonder if they thought of that or if someone should suggest that as a "comment"

[isuhawkeye]

as an agency I don't think I would be comfertable having someone teach a federally defined course with out the instructor having the proper cridentials

[floridacyclist]

Actually, FEMA doesn't require the course either...read your ICS300 instructor's guide. They literally copied and pasted that from there.

[isuhawkeye]

Those pre-reqs were for the attendance to the TTT course. 

FEMA has delegated the issuance of 300/400 certificates to the state level.  How will CAP handle that hurdle, or will you simply issue your own

[RiverAux]

And what exactly do they expect CERT teams to do?  Are CERT teams allowed to do urban SAR, which is prohibited, but not defined in 60-3, but is one of the skill sets taught in the CERT program?  What is the concept of their operations in terms of CAP?  Has NHQ realized that CERT teams are just very poorly trained ground teams that have just received some training on using fire extinguishers?  Do you still need an IC, mission number, etc to deploy CERT teams or are they allowed to self-deploy, which is the entire concept of the CERT team -- immediate reaction in situations where communication is lost (I actually know that this isn't their intent, but it is a contradiction). 

[sardak]

I-100 to 400 can also be taught using the National Wildfire Coordinating Group (NWCG) courses, which are recognized equivalents by DHS.  NWCG allows instructors to issue their own certificates.

For instructors, NWCG doesn't require the TTT, either.
Training Requirements for Instructors
• 100 level courses
No instructor training required, and may be taught by anyone possessing the knowledge and skills with local approval.
• 200 level courses
Unit instructors should have 32 hours of instructor training (Facilitative Instructor, M-410; equivalent course; Degree in Education; or, current or previous Education credential).
Lead instructors are required to have 32 hours of instructor training (Facilitative Instructor, M-410; equivalent course; Degree in Education; or, current or previous Education credential).
• 300 and above level courses
All instructors are required to have 32 hours of instructor training (Facilitative Instructor, M-410; equivalent course; Degree in Education; or, current or previous Education credential).

Mike

[isuhawkeye]

My question is this.

Since when have CERT teams been a deployable resource?

CERT members can assist others in their neighborhood or workplace following an event when professional responders are not immediately available to help

Quote from the citizen corp web site

The first pages of training explain how this is not a responder course.  The priorities are to stabilize your home, your family, your community until professional rescuers can get to the lower hazard environments.

I have always held CAP's gound teams up as Professional responders.   

[RiverAux]

Well, you can certainly deploy a CAP unit within your community.  We do it all the time.  So, if we had CAP CERT teams, they could certainly be used within their home town (doing whatever the heck they're supposed to do). 

[isuhawkeye]

If you were CERT qualified, and a tornado hit your town would you go out and help your family as a CERT team member, or would you wait until the AFAM was issued so you could put your CAP Uniform on?

CERT is an excellent tool, but it should be used as it was intended

[davidsinn]

I was thinking that maybe the CERT qual would be a dumbed down GT qual that would allow members to go out with little better than UDF gear and sling sandbags or move supplies, or pick up tornado debris with hand tools. Perhaps this is the beginning of DR Quals?

[SJFedor]

I was thinking that maybe the CERT qual would be a dumbed down GT qual that would allow members to go out with little better than UDF gear and sling sandbags or move supplies, or pick up tornado debris with hand tools. Perhaps this is the beginning of DR Quals?

I'd say so, especially since we don't use AP and SDIS for SAR all too often.

Moreso, it's probably giving definition to a qualification so that, when we're out there helping our neighbors pick up the debris after their houses got nailed by a tornado, and we're on an AFAM, if something happens, we're acting within our qualification.

[RiverAux]

I seriously doubt many CAP members are going to bother with CERT.  Anyone actually interested in going out and getting sweaty is probably going to get GT qualified anyway. 

One thing that I didn't see was implementation of any physical standards for ground team other work.  I wonder where that stands as far as the national NIMS program is concerned. 

[floridacyclist]

CERT is an excellent tool when used as intended....neighbors cut off from outside help and helping each other until the cavalry arrives. I'm not sure what role it will have in CAP, but considering that the very earliest CERT program was born out of a need to prevent untrained disaster workers from injuring themselves immediately after a disaster or emergency, the training itself is good and useful. Perhaps it should have been included as part of GES.

[RiverAux]

Regarding the September 30th deadline to get NIMS compliant -- It will not happen.  Assuming the reg was approved tomorrow we might get most CAP members through 100,200,700,800 in that time.  But considering that the reg probably won't be officially put out for several months, they're going to have to move that deadline. 

Now, regarding 300 and 400 for the mission staff-- there is no way in heck that our mission staff are going to do the 4 courses over the internet plus 2 2 day courses by 9/30.  In my wing I think that only 1 IC may have done the 300/400 and there are probably less than 5 other mission staff members that have done them.  Everybody else would be starting from scratch. 

We need at least a year to get this done and will need to be prepared to lose 10-20% of our ES qualified members, and not just the people who have been doing the minimum to maintain their qualifications.  We will lose good people who think this is just too much.  CG Aux experience backs up this prediction.  This doesn't mean that I don't think its worthwhile, but we just have to be prepared for it.   

[floridacyclist]

I asked our instructor at Emmitsburg about how an agency was considered to be NIMS-compliant....was there a set percentage of people that had to meet the standard for their position. He said that agencies had to make it a stated goal to become NIMS-compliant and incorporate the suggested training into their standards but that there was no set percentage of compliance or restriction on non-compliant people deploying...those are recommended guidelines for our training standards.

That said, what I THINK may happen is that those who refuse to meet the standards that they have had several years to pursue will simply have to stand down until they complete them. I believe that CAP has too much at stake to consider violating our own stated training standards by openly waiving them which could then jeopardize our status as being considered NIMS-compliant. It might be tough on those remaining, but I believe that the folks who are actually committed will bounce back and once they get past the transition period will simply take the training for granted.

In short, I wouldn't count on any leniency or grace periods from on high. I may be wrong, but if so it wouldn't be the first time.

[arajca]

A big part of how many member remain active in ES will depend ALOT on how frequently the ICS 200 and 300 courses are offered. Yes, IS 200 meets the ICS 200 requirement, but it nowhere near sufficient if someone is actually going to work in an ICS environment. IS 200 is a good refresher or preparatory course for the real ICS 200 residence course.


Note: "Residence Course" only means a course you attend in person with other students and instructors as opposed to sitting in front of your computer (Online Course)

[wildman]

Six months to accomplish what the EM/ES community has take three years to do? If they are serious about this, many of the SQTR's will need to be rewritten.

We've had the same amount of time as everyone else. Just because some of our folks chose to ignore the handwriting on the wall does not mean that anyone had any less time to get ready for this.

Yes you are quite right there. I managed to take the ICS 100-200/700-800 with one of the local counties within the group. They had a FEMA instructor that came in for the class. Several in our squadron had the chance to go and only two of us ended up there.... Another local county opened up there class's for us, provided the books and the class at no cost to our members.  ICS 300 Class and I was the only one to attend. The instructor was cert to both Federal and state class's.  I realize that most of our members work during the week and its hard to take time off... but if you want to get it done.........Well the state of Florida has class's through out the year... and these are open to Florida Wing Members... if you can make the time.

In order for CAP to get reimbursed from FEMA (for federal disasters) CAP is going to have to get with the program...
thats just the way it is....

wild

Tags, and bold tags removed - MIKE

[floridacyclist]

That is why we hold our ICS Academy on weekends....and it in return is open to all disciplines but mainly aimed at volunteers.

[RiverAux]

Pretty much most adults should be able to blaze through 100,200,700,800 online without any trouble at all.  However, getting people to do it is the issue I was bringing up. 

The actual classroom courses (300,400) are being taught all over the place in my state this year and availability isn't an issue.  But, again, getting people to do it will be the problem. 

[Eclipse]

We have at least one CAP member in my wing who is has been certified as an instructor in 3/400.  Personally I would prefer to take this in an agency agnostic setting to insure I am getting a plain vanilla class, but having them offered at our convenience on the weekends will fill the need for a lot of our folks.

As to NIMS compliance as a concept, there's no way this is going to stick nationally with September.

Based on recent conversations I've had with leaders of the local SAR community, as well as friends I have who are PD/FD, most departments and agencies are in as bad or worse shape than we are in.

Further to that, and with acknowledgment or our volunteer status and limited training time, in many cases CAP is much better prepared to execute in ICS environments than local PD/FD.  This is all we do, and most of us who are effective and experienced check the ego at the door, unlike many smaller agencies.

We also don't get into fights over jurisdiction, we work for whomever calls us within our SOPs.