Guidance to local law enforcement?

[bflynn]

I saw this news article on the AOPA board -

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?p=all&tc=pgall&AID=/20040122/NEWS/401220307/1001/NEWS0105

Summary of the idea that I wanted to point out - local law enforcement doesn't know how to handle a report of an airplane down.

Can CAP provide guidance?  It could be as simple as a flyer that says "call AFRCC" and provide the information needed.  Or it could be an entire campaign to educate law enforcement and 911 centers at all levels how to handle down aircraft calls.

End result is that more airplanes get searched for, more airplanes get found and more lives get saved.

How do we raise this to the National level?

Thoughts?

[Eclipse]

How do we raise this to the National level?

We don't.

This is a local problem with a local solution and an existing mandate.  ESO's at all levels are supposed to be making contacts
with agencies in their AOR and scope.  It's one of their primary functions.

[bflynn]

Yes, but do local ESOs have the resouces to do this consistently?  Wouldn't a national standard message be more consistent and carry more authority with 911 centers?

Additionally, I'd estimate there are 20+ different ESOs in NC alone.  Times 50, there are probably 1000 different ESOs at all levels.  If you ask each of them how to do this, you'd get 1500 different versions of how to do this.

Assuming I wanted to raise the visibility on this, what would be the appropriate method?

[Major Lord]

1 (900) LOS-TPLANE? $3.99 per minute....

Major Lord

[Eclipse]

Yes, but do local ESOs have the resouces to do this consistently?

Do they, probably not.  Should they?  Yes.  Remember the "more people" discussions?

Additionally, I'd estimate there are 20+ different ESOs in NC alone.  Times 50, there are probably 1000 different ESOs at all levels.  If you ask each of them how to do this, you'd get 1500 different versions of how to do this.

Assuming I wanted to raise the visibility on this, what would be the appropriate method?

A national message will go on the pile next to all the other "national messages" and be ignored. A handshake meeting locally is the way to go.
Every ESO has a specific scope, and the process for handling a missing aircraft is already standardized, as is the process for requesting assistance
from the NOC for other emergencies.

A 1-pager from NHQ that could be customized with local letterhead would be fine, but the conversation should be handled locally.

[bflynn]

Yes, but do local ESOs have the resouces to do this consistently?

Do they, probably not.  Should they?  Yes.  Remeber the "more people" discussions.

I'm not sure what the "more people" discussions are, if you check my post count this is #3 and they're all in this thread.  Although I've been a CAP member for a few years, this is my first time being here. 

I agree that local person to person contact is far more effective.  But what I'm also seeing is that when you compare a 911 center manager who runs a 100 person department with a squadron ESO officer or even a wing ESO officer, there is an authority inbalance.  Having national organization backing is nice.

I think I figured out my answer.  And I'm a little dismayed at the amount of negativity...

[Eclipse]

I agree that local person to person contact is far more effective.  But what I'm also seeing is that when you compare a 911 center manager who runs a 100 person department with a squadron ESO officer or even a wing ESO officer, there is an authority inbalance.  Having national organization backing is nice.

Authority imbalance?  Information is information.

Your contact would likely not be the manager of a call center anyway, it would a staff member of the PD, FD, etc.

[Major Lord]

Just tread lightly  my friend, you don't want CAP looking like we are trying to usurp the power of the Sheriff with our heavy-handed, federal, god-like authority. Unless you want to be Persona Non Grata for a dozen years until the Sheriff dies and someone remembers those guys with the free airplane service. The Chief LEO of a venue can be presumed to have knowledge of the Incident Command Structure, and have the appropriate liaison personnel. Of course, this is a rebutabble presumption. Some townships are about 6 acres, and might only have a Constable or a watchdog, but they are the authority in their domain, and will be nervous about CAP's presence and intentions if this is not left to those in CAP capable of making those contacts without shooting themselves in the feet, while wedging them in their mouth ( oh yes, you can do both simultaneously with sufficient practice!)

I think it would be awesome if we had canned multi-media presentation (NOT POWER POINT!, and  please god, don't get that O'Grady guy!) to present to locals on the mission capabilities of CAP,and a few "presentable presenters" ( not stuttering blue sausages covered in facial moss) trained to deliver the briefing and answer questions. Offering this to LE, EMS, etc in safe venues like conferences could lead to some real working relationships, frequency use MOU's, recruitment, and of course, weaseling out of traffic tickets.

Major Lord

[RiverAux]

There is also a difference between a plane down and a missing plane in terms of general CAP involvement.  But, it wouldn't hurt for national to come up with 1-page flyer with a quick list of actions that local police and fire should take regarding notifications after an airplane crashes.  Most crashes occur at or very near airports and are reported to the local authorities and have no need of CAP involvement, but I think we're in the right place to help these agencies understand what they should do when it happens. 

[sardak]

Summary of the idea that I wanted to point out - local law enforcement doesn't know how to handle a report of an airplane down.

You read one 7 year old article about one plane crash in one jurisdiction and you've made a blanket statement against thousands of law enforcement agencies. Now you want to start a national campaign based on this and are upset about the negative responses.

How many times have you heard about an LE agency being accused of not responding quickly enough to reports of missing persons, stolen cars, bank robberies, shootings , etc., etc., etc.? It happens every day and these other events happen more frequently than plane crashes.

AFRCC has an MOU with each of the 48 states in its AOR (Hawaii and Alaska are excluded). Each MOU addresses how ELTs, PLBs, Missing Aircraft, Missing Persons and other items are handled between AFRCC and the state.

At one time AFRCC was pushing for all states to operate SAR alerting the same, which failed because 48 states said nope. A little problem with constitutions and laws getting in the way. There are 3000+ counties or county equivalents in the US (including AK and HI) and it's a good bet that all have multiple jurisdictions within them. The process for handling missing aircraft reports is going to vary between all of them.

AFRCC now uses the motto "Once you've seen how one state works, you've seen how one state works" and that's the way it should be. In other words, AFRCC has no authority to tell local governments how to do their jobs, including response to missing aircraft. Neither does CAP.

CAP NHQ makes a presentation every year at the national state SAR coordinators meeting which is hosted by AFRCC. NHQ tells the coordinators what CAP does, but doesn't tell the coordinators how to do their jobs. Local units and wings can do the same.

Mike

[bosshawk]

Amen.

My county recently had a home-built, ultra-light make a one point landing in a remote field: both occupants walked away.  Strangely(to some), the Sheriff and the Fire Department responded appropriately and quickly.  CAP never even knew of the incident.  If it had, it would have taken anywhere from 2 hours to 2 days for CAP to have done anything about it.  The FAA was notified and they showed up the next day to look at the burned fabric and steel tubing.

Leave LE problems to LE.

Incidentally, my county has 18,000 residents and probably that many cows.  No incorporated towns or cities and a completely volunteerr fire department.  Oh, yes, we have Yosemite National Park taking up about one quarter of the county.

[RiverAux]

I think you're misunderstanding what was being proposed.  No one has said that we'd be telling them to call CAP or that CAP would even be involved.  And its great that CAP and AFRCC interact with the states, but that doesn't do anything for the very small towns or sheriffs that may never have dealt with an airplane crash at all. 

Letting them know who to contact after they discover a crash site isn't impinging on their authority in any way.  We're just educating them on something that we know a bit more about than they do.

After you've seen the local FD, SO, and PD roll a ton of units after they heard that CAP is looking for an ELT and they assumed that meant a plane had crashed, you get to understand that this really isn't their wheelhouse and a little educational effort on our part can go a long way.

[lordmonar]

Bottom line.

NHQ does provide a booklet for local ES agencies...it tells them about our capabilities and the number to the NOC.

Your local ES officer should make contact with the local police/fire department and county level ES manager....just to make that hand shake...here we are...and we are ready to help....sort of thing.

This in fact should be what a squadron level ES officer is supposed to be doing.

[Eclipse]

This in fact should be what a squadron level ES officer is supposed to be doing.

Yep, or the Group one for EMA's and county-level stuff, and the Wing one for State-level agencies.

Our SD was also very good about doing the occasional road show as well, which was great because he's never going to commit
resources we don't have, or sell a mission we don't do.  Sadly, with the upcoming RIF, those days are probably behind us.

[MSgt Van]

I had business cards made with the state duty officer's 1-800 number, and instructions how to request assistance from CAP. I passed them out to every police chief, cop, sheriff, county emergency services office that I came across. I put local squadron contact info on the reverse side. Cheap way to keep our info handy for them.

[Eclipse]

Stolen.

[bosshawk]

I didn't misunderstand what the OP said: he stated that the 911 center should be advised to call "AFRCC" and ask CAP for guidance on what else to do.

Both of those actions should come in the second or third layers of what to do.  First, call out the local SAR and Fire folks.  A call to a 911 center would likely include the location of the crash: at that point, there isn't a thing that CAP can do that is meaningful.  Once the scene is stabilized, call the NTSB and the FAA.

I agree that calling the NOC or AFRCC might come about if the aircraft is simply missiing: in fact, AFRCC comes after the NOC, after the FAA. 

My interpretation of what the OP said relates to CAP being called to do a search and possibly a rescue.

Enough said.

[sardak]

I think you're misunderstanding what was being proposed.

I'm with bosshawk that we do understand what was proposed and subsequent posts have modified the OP to explain what really needs to be done.

There are many LE and other agencies having jurisdiction who don't know what they're doing and many that do. The same holds true for CAP units.

It's not a problem that needs to be addressed at a national level. It may need to be addressed at the state level as well as the local levels. "Once you've been to one state..."

CAP can address the problem at the local level if they understand 1) the issues;  2) the solutions and 3) the approach that needs to be taken in explaining 1 and 2.  How CAP deals with these three points is where many of have concerns, learned from experience.

Mike

[RiverAux]

Sure it can use some national guidance in terms of putting together the right information for the local folks to utilize.  Its pretty clear to me that left to their own devices squadron and wings are not addressing this issue.  If they had some ready made materials to work with they might actually do it. 

[bflynn]

Sure it can use some national guidance in terms of putting together the right information for the local folks to utilize.  Its pretty clear to me that left to their own devices squadron and wings are not addressing this issue.  If they had some ready made materials to work with they might actually do it.

This was very close of my original thought.  I gave up the thread - but I stumbled back across it tonight and decided to post a followup. 

BTW, the news article I read which prompted this was about seven days old, not seven years.  It was on the purple or red boards, I don't remember which.  A farmer called 911 and said he'd seen an airplane crash near his house.  I think he looked, but didn't find anything.  17 hours later someone started searching and found the dead pilot and his passenger.  They claim they both died instantly in the crash, but the point is that it took so long to start looking.

Down at the squadron level, a part time ESO probably doesn't know all the ins and outs of how national operations runs.  They don't know what they can/should tell local LE.  We have county LE deputies in our squadron and I'm pretty sure our county 911 center knows how to handle things.  But then ours is a largish squadron in a largish county.  If I go to one of the neighboring counties, I'm not so confident.  If I go to one of the rural counties, I'm pretty sure there's at least one in our area that would be puzzled.  I'm a new member and assistant ESO, so I'm still learning...I know I don't know. 

So, take it for the idea it was meant to convey - how do we help pilots in trouble.  I learned that there is a national booklet already - did not know that before.  How do we get copies of that?  If I'm going to volunteer to make contact with some people, I'd like to have information already...