Paint Ball for Cadets

[SWASH]

It's easier to simply say no paintball as a cadet/squadron activity now-a-days, you know, so nobody gets sued.

Regulations are like everything else in life, they will not completley satisfy everybody.  I went paintballing or airsofting every weekend with friends, both CAPers and non CAPers, for about a year and a half.  Did any SMs care?  No.  Should anybody actually care?  No.

[TEAM SURGE]

It's easier to simply say no paintball as a cadet/squadron activity now-a-days, you know, so nobody gets sued.

Regulations are like everything else in life, they will not completley satisfy everybody.  I went paintballing or airsofting every weekend with friends, both CAPers and non CAPers, for about a year and a half.  Did any SMs care?  No.  Should anybody actually care?  No.

Nobody said you cant do it outside of CAP! 

[DC]

It's easier to simply say no paintball as a cadet/squadron activity now-a-days, you know, so nobody gets sued.

Regulations are like everything else in life, they will not completley satisfy everybody.  I went paintballing or airsofting every weekend with friends, both CAPers and non CAPers, for about a year and a half.  Did any SMs care?  No.  Should anybody actually care?  No.

Nobody said you cant do it outside of CAP! 

That has been the point of argument for the last 3.5 pages of this thread, whether or not CAP friends could play paintball of airsoft together and it not be a 'CAP activity'.

We actually had a discussion like this in my squadron a few years ago, but not about Paintball or anything like that. The question was whether or not the cadet staff could have a staff meeting (no uniforms and no SMs) and it not  be considered a CAP activity. The cadets joked about for a while, especially two brothers that were in the program, wondering if it was a CAP activity whenever they did something together...

There has to be a line drawn between CAP and your life. To me, if I am not wearing a uniform and not signed in to an activity, it is not CAP, and I can do what I want with who I want, CAP membership regardless.

[arajca]

[That has been the point of argument for the last 3.5 pages of this thread, whether or not CAP friends could play paintball of airsoft together and it not be a 'CAP activity'.

We actually had a discussion like this in my squadron a few years ago, but not about Paintball or anything like that. The question was whether or not the cadet staff could have a staff meeting (no uniforms and no SMs) and it not  be considered a CAP activity. The cadets joked about for a while, especially two brothers that were in the program, wondering if it was a CAP activity whenever they did something together...

Cadets holding a cadet staff meeting, regardless of uniforms, ARE at a cadet activity, since the purpose is CAP.

[Timbo]

...... if I am not wearing a uniform and not signed in to an activity, it is not CAP, and I can do what I want with who I want, CAP membership regardless.

Unless you are doing CAP work, like the Cadet staff who meets on a different day than SQD meetings would be doing.  CAP work= CAP activity.

Playing paintball with CAP friends outside the weekly meeting is fine, just don't advertise it during the meeting, or through CAP communication channels, don't wear a CAP uniform etc.

However, meeting with your SQD friends to make decisions regarding your SQD would absolutely by CAP activity, even though no uniform is worn.  

We need to stop thinking that CAP is the military, it is not.  

The question posed was answered on the first page.  

[lordmonar]

I can't beleive this thread has gone on for 4 pages!

GEESE GUYS!

It is simple....it really is.  No paintball.

Additionally....we need to be aware of what "outside meetings" our cadets are organising.  Not that we want to limit them or stop them but to make sure that the PARENTS are aware of what is and is not a CAP activity.

The "let's all meet at the paintball feild" is all fine and good until Cadet Newkid tells his parents he is going to "Play paintball with CAP" and get's hurt.

The same can be said about cadets going to "cadet staff meetings" or "Week end FTXs" that are not monitored/supervised/known by the senior members.

[caprr275]

Ok then how can cap say that if you have cap pics on your MySpace and you also have illegal pics you have to take one or the other down or they will kick you out.

Another example how can two cadets who go out on a date and the guy goes too far or does something that upsets her and she makes a cap complaint and he gets kicked out... they weren't  in uniform the only thing is that they are both cadets, nothing is illegal about it,

So who is going to tell me that as soon as you take the uniform off you aren't a member bound to the regs.

[Timbo]

Ok then how can cap say that if you have cap pics on your MySpace and you also have illegal pics you have to take one or the other down or they will kick you out.

Another example how can two cadets who go out on a date and the guy goes too far or does something that upsets her and she makes a cap complaint and he gets kicked out... they weren't  in uniform the only thing is that they are both cadets, nothing is illegal about it,

So who is going to tell me that as soon as you take the uniform off you aren't a member bound to the regs.

Because your moral values and sense of right and wrong is not something that turns itself on, on CAP meting night, and back off after the meeting.  In your EXAMPLES you did not violate regs......you violated LAWS, both criminal and civil.  Your actions outside of CAP, reflect what type of person you will be when you put the CAP uniform on.

Honestly we don't want pot heads and rapists. 

I wouldn't kick you out of CAP for you myspace pics, I would print them out and deliver a copy to your parents hands and let them decide how to handle you. 

[Eclipse]

So who is going to tell me that as soon as you take the uniform off you aren't a member bound to the regs.

No one who understands CAP, our regs, or our litigious society.

There are places and reasons in CAP where I would takes risks outside the regs to save lives, we all would.  However those personal lines of demarcation have no place in the academic arguments of what is "ok", "not ok", and /or "on the line". 

Something silly like paintball isn't a place I'm going to choose to "make my stand".

I wouldn't kick you out of CAP for you myspace pics, I would print them out and deliver a copy to your parents hands and let them decide how to handle you. 

Anything showing blatant violations of CAP regs, posted publicly, makes you fair game to have more free time on your hands.  Hopefully mom & dad will impose further..."unpleasantness", but their potential actions don't relieve a commander of his responsibility to discipline cadets (or seniors).

[Climbnsink]

Some of you guys are wound way too tight.  If it's moral and legal and nobody is wearing a uniform or using CAP real estate/equipment then all's good.

[TEAM SURGE]

Some of you guys are wound way too tight.  If it's moral and legal and nobody is wearing a uniform or using CAP real estate/equipment then all's good.

It's like some people think that CAP follows them throughout everythig. I saw some cadets at the fair "hey Seargent" I mean we are not at  a meeting you can call me by my real name. 

Well this has been stretched too far. Basically if your not signed into or not in a CAP uniform you are not having a CAP activity and if you want to get your "friends" in the squadron to play paintball with you outside of the meeting thats up to you.

[lordmonar]

One one level you are correct Team Surge.....no one can stop a group of cadets from meeting outside of CAP.....and we should not try.

However.....we should be aware of these meetings and our cadets should be made explicity aware that these "meet-up" are not CAP activities.

Where the problem is.....the parents may not know that the acitivity is not CAP related.

Cadet Joe tells his parents that he is going to play Paintball with CAP....he gets hurt and bills CAP for his injuries.  As part of our CYA....we have to be proactive in educating our cadets of what is allow, what is a CAP activity and what the consequences are for "mis-informing" our parents.

[TEAM SURGE]

One one level you are correct Team Surge.....no one can stop a group of cadets from meeting outside of CAP.....and we should not try.

However.....we should be aware of these meetings and our cadets should be made explicity aware that these "meet-up" are not CAP activities.

Where the problem is.....the parents may not know that the acitivity is not CAP related.

Cadet Joe tells his parents that he is going to play Paintball with CAP....he gets hurt and bills CAP for his injuries.  As part of our CYA....we have to be proactive in educating our cadets of what is allow, what is a CAP activity and what the consequences are for "mis-informing" our parents.

Thats what I mean. And that is common for new cadets.

[SM-MADDOG]

As a 2Lt Senior I have no problem with Cadets doing paintball, now I think the regulation should state its allowed upon permission slips signed by parents/guardians and the paintball activity will be supervised by the paintball facility staff and senior members. I also think that squadrons should set up firearms training for cadets who want to do it. The regulations say it has to be given of course by a certified firearms instructor police, military, or NRA instructors. Firearms shooting is a good thing for younger people to get involved in, it can teach allot of responsibility, states show that teens Who have done such a firearms training and firearms shooting sports have better grades than teens who dont shoot, are much much less likely to committ crimes, etc.

I do think the regulation CAP has is dumb, it says No Weapons, yet You have an Air Force Survival knife amoung others. This reminds Me of when the police dept I was with as a police explorer changed the regs for us. It said No Knives blah blah etc. Well You could carry a multi tool/knife, which some had two knife blades, We changed the regs, We allowed explorers Who were permitted by the dept's instructors to carry handcuffs and pepper spray. Also Depending on the Officer You went on road patrol with if they knew You were in good sound mind, training as an explorer they instructed You if things went bad and You have to as a last resort to use the 12Ga Tactical Shotgun. I knew as a police explorer which button to hit to release that tac shotgun. Just a my long time friend and officer I rode with all the time back then said if Im dead what good am I to You, and will You survive, yet as a whole heck yeah that would be against the regulations but the law also says you are to do as the officer instructs so We were within the law and they couldnt really do anything because it would be self defense of my self, my buddy the officer (Lt now) and public.

Now Im not saying to arm cadets by my post lol, they arent going to do that, however when a cadet carries a knife they are armed. I have a knife for CAP I also have a State Weapon Permit to Carry both Open or Concealed. I carry as a security officer on duty and carry (CCW) off duty.

But I say as long as its set up correctly and the buisness that has paintball supervises the cadets and our seniors supervises them let it happen. And I dont wanna hear that someone could get hurt killed, I understand with anything we do things can happen, You hear certain "groups" say this about shooting sports and training, however its not correct. Football teams have more kids injured and killed a year than shooting sports. Some other sports are the same and activities that kids do. I think one reason less get hurt in shooting sports every year and by every ten year figures and so on is because shooting training/sports requires a high level of respect, responsibility amoung many other things.

[arajca]

There are few paintball businesses up in the mountains, but there's a whole bunch of forests where folks of all ages and genders go to play paintball and airsoft.

As a CAP activity, you open both CAP and yourself up to a range of liability issues. Even with parental permission slips and liability waivers, there is a potential for problems. Parents can waive their right to sue, etc, but CANNOT waive their childrens' right to sue.

A very prudent policy - which I've seen becoming more common - is to make sure parents receive something regarding ALL unit CAP activities, either by email or direct letter. Also, make sure the parents has phone numbers for the unit command staff (CC, CDC, CDS) and encourage them to call if they have any questions.

If a bunch of cadets want to get together and play paintball, airsoft, hockey, football, whatever, as a bunch of friends, great. They need to make sure everyone understands it is not a CAP activity. As for CAP units providing basic firearms training for members, it is allowed, but there are some requirements which limit who can teach and where you can do it. And not all units have qualified instructors available.

[Eclipse]

As a 2Lt Senior I have no problem with Cadets doing paintball...

To your assertion that teens who receive firearms training get better grades?  Cite please.

In comment to your saying shooting teams are safer than other sports...well of course they are.  Unless the competition teams are incredibly reckless, the injury and death rate should be effectively zero.  Unlike paintball and football, competition shooting teams don't aim their weapons at the other team.

[IceNine]

SM-MADDOG-

We aren't talking about firearms.  We're talking about paint balling.

They are entirely different with the only similarity being that they both shoot projectiles. 

And FYI- it may be so in the police explorer world but in CAP if I hand a cadet a paintball gun and tell them to shoot that kid over there it doesn't make it "legal" regulatorily speaking

[Rotorhead]

teens Who have done such a firearms training and firearms shooting sports have better grades than teens who dont shoot, are much much less likely to committ crimes, etc. 

Okay, I'll bite: What's your source on that? I've never seen that stat anywhere.

[SM-MADDOG]

Yes, You can find those states in several places I will have to look them up for You, they are complied by some federal government agencies one may be FBI. Im not sure if they complie that type of state or not though. Annother place to go to or contact if the National Rifle Association which can direct You where to find those federal states and what not. They can also advise You on my quote about the shooting sports, its facts that are proven and have been proven for many many years. Shooting Sports is a good program for certain young people to get into, just as the CAP cadet program. The CAP cadet program is a proven fact of what type of adults it turns out in the future, etc. 

As a 2Lt Senior I have no problem with Cadets doing paintball...

To your assertion that teens who receive firearms training get better grades?  Cite please.

In comment to your saying shooting teams are safer than other sports...well of course they are.  Unless the competition teams are incredibly reckless, the injury and death rate should be effectively zero.  Unlike paintball and football, competition shooting teams don't aim their weapons at the other team.

[SM-MADDOG]

That's alright some people have never heard that stat, just as some people have never heard that over 2.5 million times a year a lawful citizen with a firearm stops a violent crime, and most of those cases they didnt even have to fire a shot, just brandishing the firearm made the thug run off like the cowards they are.

One place to go to find such stats would be several federal government agencies that hold stats, I will have to find those for You and post them, also You could contact the National Rifle Association they can probably direct You to find such facts. I also seen such things I think maybe it was on the 4H Club for Youth, also the USA Shooting Team has some statements I think, and they have several links to shooting sports for adults, teens and youth.

One reason with the grades, alot of shooting teams and what not require passing grades or they cant be active. I think that alone is a teen likes the sport or program they will try hard to have passing grades. When I was in police explorers We had to get at least above passing with a C avg or We became inactive no questions asked intill those grades went up. Also any criminal charges, traffic tickets or what not was up to the rules/regulations of the police dept and cheif. A Traffic ticket may be ok but two in a certain time period wasnt.

teens Who have done such a firearms training and firearms shooting sports have better grades than teens who dont shoot, are much much less likely to committ crimes, etc. 

Okay, I'll bite: What's your source on that? I've never seen that stat anywhere.