Cadet Testing Records

[NC Hokie]

Is there a requirement to keep the results portion of the answer sheets for cadet tests in their master file?  I've looked in CAPR 52-16 and CAPR 50-4 and can only find instruction to record completion of cadet test requirements (passing scores) on the front of the cadet master record.  Given the thickness of some of my cadet's files, I'd really like to be rid of these results if there's no requirement to keep them around.

[MIKE]

The stubs from my cadet daze are still in my file.  AFAIK, there is no requirement to keep the stubs in the file once the tests have been properly recorded... but IMO, it's just one more thing to create a paper trail of tests taken.

[LtCol Hooligan]

At the very least keep the stubs for passed tests.  Trust me, we have needed these more times than I can count.  There will always be a cadet who comes and says I passed Module 5, but there is not module 5 in SIMS or on the cover of the file.  The only true way to know is to pull up the test stubs and look for module 5.  Keep the passing ones and return the fails to the cadets!!

[Capt M. Sherrod]

I spoke with Curt LaFond at great length about this during a TLC.  There is nothing regulatory stating that they have to be kept in the file.  So, we cleaned ours out and gave them to the cadet.  We make it very clear to the cadet that it is their responsibility to know what they need for promotion and to provide the documentation to back up their claims if there is any doubt.

[LtCol Hooligan]

I spoke with Curt LaFond at great length about this during a TLC.  There is nothing regulatory stating that they have to be kept in the file.  So, we cleaned ours out and gave them to the cadet.  We make it very clear to the cadet that it is their responsibility to know what they need for promotion and to provide the documentation to back up their claims if there is any doubt.

I hope you are keeping a testing log then!!  Honestly, I cannot even count how many cadets have asked me about missing tests and we had to pull out the slips.  I actually sat in Curt's discussion about moving to on-line testing and one of the main benefits he outlines is no more lost or missing test records.  I am actually very surprised he would advocate letting the passing slips go as he knows as well as anyone how difficult test admin and record keeping is.  I don't know if this is the best idea...

[lordmonar]

It is all about how you go about keeping track of information.

If you are recording tests passed/date/score on the file folder like we are supposed to....there is no need to retain the test stubs.

[jimmydeanno]

I spoke with Curt LaFond at great length about this during a TLC.  There is nothing regulatory stating that they have to be kept in the file.  So, we cleaned ours out and gave them to the cadet.  We make it very clear to the cadet that it is their responsibility to know what they need for promotion and to provide the documentation to back up their claims if there is any doubt.

I hope you are keeping a testing log then!!  Honestly, I cannot even count how many cadets have asked me about missing tests and we had to pull out the slips.  I actually sat in Curt's discussion about moving to on-line testing and one of the main benefits he outlines is no more lost or missing test records.  I am actually very surprised he would advocate letting the passing slips go as he knows as well as anyone how difficult test admin and record keeping is.  I don't know if this is the best idea...

When ( ) the online testing goes through, the system would keep track of what tests you are eligible to take and when.  The cadet would sign on and be told what test they could take.  They are scored instantaneously, results posted and logged.  If they fail more than twice they would be locked out until the DCC or testing officer talks to them/mentors them and unlocks them to test again.  

Test admin would be simple because there wouldn't be any.  All automated.  

It's time to let go of the paperwork, it's redundant and unneccessary.  There is no point in going to a computer based program if you are going to keep paper records anyway - that defeats the purpose of going to the computer, you are creating more work for yourself.

Right now with the ES tests, etc I can pull up the "testing log" for what I've taken, nothing is missing and it dates back 5 years now.  I have a feeling this computer thing is here to stay and the faster people accept change the better off we'll be.

[rebowman]

I know that the cadets have the honor code but isn't it a little "risky" returning the tests to the cadets?

[davidsinn]

I know that the cadets have the honor code but isn't it a little "risky" returning the tests to the cadets?

Don't return the answer portion just the header with the basic information of who, what and when.

[LtCol Hooligan]

When ( ) the online testing goes through, the system would keep track of what tests you are eligible to take and when.  The cadet would sign on and be told what test they could take.  They are scored instantaneously, results posted and logged.  If they fail more than twice they would be locked out until the DCC or testing officer talks to them/mentors them and unlocks them to test again.  

Test admin would be simple because there wouldn't be any.  All automated.  

It's time to let go of the paperwork, it's redundant and unneccessary.  There is no point in going to a computer based program if you are going to keep paper records anyway - that defeats the purpose of going to the computer, you are creating more work for yourself.

Right now with the ES tests, etc I can pull up the "testing log" for what I've taken, nothing is missing and it dates back 5 years now.  I have a feeling this computer thing is here to stay and the faster people accept change the better off we'll be.

I hear what you are saying and firmly believe in the power of computers and support it (I work for a pretty big software company).  We are using SIMS and have since 2004.  We are also looking at the new eServices application as well.  The issue, as I see it, is that we are dealing with humans using software.  Humans need to update it, humans need to use it and humans need to work with it.  Occasionally, there are slips and humans make mistakes.  This means that a check and balance must be maintained because there will be times a young cadet comes back and says sir, I passed that test and you don't have a record of it.  The next step is to go back to the paper record and from there, back to the slip showing the score.  If you don't have that information, this young cadet may have to retake something they already passed.  I understand what people are saying by giving the slips back to the cadets and making it their responsibility to keep the proof, but that proof is so easily lost.  Also, the sole purpose of the paper file system is to keep records for people so they have a common place to store their documents in case they need to produce proof. 

Once on-line testing comes up, we most likely will not keep paper records of the tests, but until the system is proven, I would not put everything through the shreadder just yet.  I also may recommend to my people that they save a copy of the certificate, either virtually or on paper so they have that proof if/when a mistake happens.  It will save them headaches in the future.

[DC]

Redundancy when it comes to records is always a smart thing. As has been pointed out, people make mistakes, and software can have glitches. Paper evidence is irrefutable, and I think a solid personnel file should be kept on all cadets, including testing records.

[jimmydeanno]

How will you back up your backups then? 

[notaNCO forever]

How will you back up your backups then? 

Scan it on a computer make to copies on Cd's and save it to five hard drives and a flash drive then store them in different spots across the country.

On a serious note I try to have three copies of paperwork it never hurts to have to many copies of something.

[DC]

^^Take the paperwork, place it in a bombproof container, bury it deep underground in an area unlikely to be affected by nuclear war, global warming, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, asteroid strikes, alien invasions or any other natural, man made, supernatural or extraterrestrial disaster.

You asked for it.  :angel:

Mike, please excuse this post.

[lordmonar]

Redundancy when it comes to records is always a smart thing. As has been pointed out, people make mistakes, and software can have glitches. Paper evidence is irrefutable, and I think a solid personnel file should be kept on all cadets, including testing records.

Absolutely...that is what the CAPF 66 is for.  About the only thing that needs to be saved are the 66 with test dates and scores, any CAPF2s'a, CAPF 52-x's, and maybe any training certificates.

Keeping upwards of 20-30 test answer stubs in a cadet's records is just useless.