Over 18 Cadets

[Ned]

And just how are we tossing them out?  Lordmonar's proposal would open things up to giving them more responsibility and opportunities than they have now. 

All Patrick did was to propose drawing a line in the sand at 19.

If I were a college student and was told I couldn't be a college student anymore, I probably feel like I was tossed out.

A cadet who is forcibly removed from cadet status and forced to turn senior will lose most or all of their scholarship and  NCSA eligibility.  They would be forcibly deprived of their ability to earn higher cadet awards (which in turn affects their attractiveness for academy appointments, ROTC scholarships, etc).

You are talking about taking education money from our best and brightest.

And why?


Please, somebody tell me why we should even talk about doing such a petty and mean-spirited thing?

[CASH172]

You are talking about taking education money from our best and brightest.

And why?

Please, somebody tell me why we should even talk about doing such a petty and mean-spirited thing?

I'm with you on that one.  I happen to be an over 18 cadet and these opportunities shouldn't just stop because you reached an age right after high school.  Most of to these opportunities are needed after high school anyhow. 

Now in terms of the regular discussion, I personally do feel that those that enter the CP right before their 18th birthday aren't going to get the full on experience.  Their COFs chances are limited and they can't necessarily interact sociably with their own age group at a place such as encampment or other CP heavy events due to rank.  Some of these 'adults' don't feel they belong with a flight of cadets eight years younger than them.  Of course there are exceptions, and some cadets find they love the program and continue all the way until they're 21, even almost to Spaatz. 

Now, majority of over 18 cadets are usually going to have been in the CP for a while.  There's no point in denying a cadet an important milestone they couldn't earn before their 18th birthday.  Also, the amount of leadership opportunities open up as they progress in the CP and it's pointless to deny a cadet an encampment C/CC position because they just simply passed a certain age. 

Is there a solution to all of it?  I can't think of one, but I'm willing to hear any arguments that don't take opportunities away from cadets.  Even the cadets that join right under 18, still have 3 years to make the most of the program.  Why take it away?

[mikeylikey]

Every dictionary I've ever seen defines a "cadet" as a military student, usually in training to be an officer.  If you have some other definition, let us know.

But can you reference the CAP REG that says we are training Cadets to be Officers (of the Senior Member or military variety, not the Cadet Officer variety). 

There is no Officer Training Program in CAP that makes a Cadet a CAP Officer.  We are not training our Cadets for military Service (though, the training we do can be applicable to the military, it is not our mission). 

Now if we made everyone 18-21 a FO, and developed a CAP Officer training program for them, I would support that.   

[♠SARKID♠]

A cadet who is forcibly removed from cadet status and forced to turn senior will lose most or all of their scholarship and  NCSA eligibility.  They would be forcibly deprived of their ability to earn higher cadet awards (which in turn affects their attractiveness for academy appointments, ROTC scholarships, etc).

Im with you here Ned.  Its good that we have a cusion.   Cadets who join later (i.e 16 or 17) don't have as much time to achieve their goals and refine their leadership skills as someone who joins right out of middle school.  The overlap gives latecomers time to grow without creating a three year pause in the progress of the earlybirds who have gotten all they want from the cadet program .

[Ned]

But can you reference the CAP REG that says we are training Cadets to be Officers (of the Senior Member or military variety, not the Cadet Officer variety). 

Ummm, how about the 52-16 and the 35-5?  Cadets who earn the Mitchell and above have completed the necessary training for CAP officer status.  Spaatz awardees are eligible for direct appointment to Captain, just like a CFII, a physician, or a university professor with five years experience.

That's how valuable our CP training is to CAP.

There is no Officer Training Program in CAP that makes a Cadet a CAP Officer.  We are not training our Cadets for military Service (though, the training we do can be applicable to the military, it is not our mission). 

And yet the military recognizes CAP CP training with advanced grade upon enlistment, and advanced placement in ROTC, and places special value on cadet milestones for admission to the various academies.  Uncle Sam won't give you the same deal upon enlistment for a Level I or II completion, or even a Garber or Wilson Award.

I wonder why.   


And Mikey (and anyone else), I repeat for the third time:

What is the "problem" that we are "solving" with your meat-axe approach to our successful cadet program?



(crickets chirping . . . . . )

[PHall]

I know we have talked about this before...but it has been a while and it was brought up in the new 60-1 discussion.

I feel we have a problem with what to do with the over 18/under 21 crowd.

The overlap between who is a cadet and who is a senior member often raises a lot of angst and Knuckel-biting with these members.

The problem is that we often make a lot of assumptions when we write regulations or set policy.

The word "cadet" often is attached to a mental picture of a 12-14 year old.  While some of those cadets are legal adults, living on their own, driving cars, working, voting, and generally doing everything that adults do.....and then they go to a CAP activity and they are treated like "children".

I have had a lot of conversations with over 18 cadets who resent being treated like children...but the bottom line is that the regulations are written in such a way that Cadets are in fact children.  Right, wrong or indifferent that is the way things are.

So here is my proposed solution to the problem.

1.  Set a hard and fast age for membership in the cadet program and the senior program.   Elimintate the option area.....so if we set the age at 19 (for instants) all 18 year olds are cadets and all 19 year olds are senior members....no more over lap.

2.  If we set the SM age for anything less than 21....either eliminate the FO ranks or integrate them into the normal progression of the SM program.  This eliminate the stigma of FO's being seen as old cadets or second rate citezens.

You know Patrick, the one thing that concerns me is that you feel this way and you're a Composite Squadron Commander.

Do you have any over 18 year old cadets in your squadron?

Or were they shown the door....

[SSgt Rudin]

ok easy solution, you can become a cadet as long as you are under 21, you can only be a senior if you are over 21.

Will this drop our new senior membership? probably not by much.
Will this drop the number of 19-21 y/o that join? again not by much, it actully may increase it, but then again not many 19 y/o want to be a C/AB with a 14 y/o flight sergeant.
Does it solve the problem? Probably.

As far as how the program currently is, my policy is: if you are over 18 and get mad that your treated like a kid, tough, you have the choice, STFU, become a senior or deal with it.

[CASH172]

As far as how the program currently is, my policy is: if you are over 18 and get mad that your treated like a kid, tough, you have the choice, STFU, become a senior or deal with it.

But you still get those types that get treated as kids as FOs. 

[Hookedonlemons]

I don't think 18 should be the magic number in CAP

12-21: Cadet
21-    : Senior Member

Yes there are gonna be the older less experienced cadets that won't be to partial to the younger flight sergeant/staff, but it shouldn't be treated as the superiority factor. With the maturity level at the late teen ages, they should be expected to display mature adult behavior for the older cadets in the squadron by showing respect for the experienced cadets(reguardless of age).

aaaaaaaaaaand...
Flight officer should be done away with entirely...
Cadets who don't recieve grade increase incentive from their previous cadet grade start at Senior Member. Transition time should be the grade of senior member, simple as that. Cadets who get grade increase when crossing over should not need much time for the conversion therefore hit the ground running as soon as the grade is pinned on.

[CadetProgramGuy]

I have to say I am mixed on this.  I do have to admit that the Flight Officer Rankings to have to go away though.

I think giving cadets the chance to go after their Spaatz until they are 20 is ok.

However I admit when an 18 year old came to the squadron meeting and I talked with them, I encouraged the Officer Program to them.  Even if it meant they had to wait to sign the paperwork to join CAP.  I probably talked to 10+ people this way, and maybe lost only 2 or three.

[drifting.....]

Flight officer ranks (IMO) are useless.  Its like saying you are old enough to be an Officer, but not old enough to hold officer grade or rank.  The only good thing about flight officer ranks is that you promote faster.

[JayT]

I have to say I am mixed on this.  I do have to admit that the Flight Officer Rankings to have to go away though.

I think giving cadets the chance to go after their Spaatz until they are 20 is ok.

However I admit when an 18 year old came to the squadron meeting and I talked with them, I encouraged the Officer Program to them.  Even if it meant they had to wait to sign the paperwork to join CAP.  I probably talked to 10+ people this way, and maybe lost only 2 or three.

[drifting.....]

Flight officer ranks (IMO) are useless.  Its like saying you are old enough to be an Officer, but not old enough to hold officer grade or rank.  The only good thing about flight officer ranks is that you promote faster.

Flight Officer grades are not useless. I am currently twenty years old, and I jumped into the grey when I was 19. Basically, due to college and the two jobs I work, I didn't have time to be a cadet, and I had no motivation or reason what so ever to go for the Spaatz, none of the NCSA's were really worth the time and money for me, etc etc etc. It was unfair for me to show up every few weeks with my C/2d Lt. pips and not really have anything to do.

Infact, since I got my FO stripes, I've been more active in the squadron, and I work on more things.

If a perfect world, I would say only keep cadets over 18 above a certain rank.

I don't really care about 'officer grade.' It's just not important. But, I'm one of those crazies that believes that an All Officer program is just foolish.

[ßτε]

But you still get those types that get treated as kids as FOs. 

That is not a problem with the FO program, but with the professionalism of those officers who treat them as kids.

[SSgt Rudin]

As far as how the program currently is, my policy is: if you are over 18 and get mad that your treated like a kid, tough, you have the choice, STFU, become a senior or deal with it.

I feel like I need to clarify my position.

Not every senior member is going to treat an 18+ cadet like a child, yes there are a few who do. However if a cadet notices that most seniors treat them like a child maybe it's time to take a step back and evaluate if they are acting like a child.

[brasda91]

Yes there are gonna be the older less experienced cadets that won't be to partial to the younger flight sergeant/staff, but it shouldn't be treated as the superiority factor. With the maturity level at the late teen ages, they should be expected to display mature adult behavior for the older cadets in the squadron by showing respect for the experienced cadets(reguardless of age).

I had a young man call me that was interested in joining.  He was 17 or 18.  I asked him if he would have a problem with the younger cadets (14-15) telling him what to do.  He said no problem.  He was used to that from when he was in the AF JROTC (if I remember correctly).  Now, I have to remeber if he is the new cadet that has joined or if I'm still waiting to meet him.   

[RiverAux]

And Mikey (and anyone else), I repeat for the third time:

What is the "problem" that we are "solving" with your meat-axe approach to our successful cadet program?

(crickets chirping . . . . . )

Perhaps we thought that the opening post in the thread gave the thumbnail version of why this is an issue (and why it has been discussed in much more detail in past threads). 

[Ned]

And Mikey (and anyone else), I repeat for the third time:

What is the "problem" that we are "solving" with your meat-axe approach to our successful cadet program?

(crickets chirping . . . . . )

Perhaps we thought that the opening post in the thread gave the thumbnail version of why this is an issue (and why it has been discussed in much more detail in past threads). 

OK, then.  Now that we are clear. Let's take a look at the "problem."

I feel we have a problem with what to do with the over 18/under 21 crowd.

The overlap between who is a cadet and who is a senior member often raises a lot of angst and Knuckel-biting with these members.

The problem is that we often make a lot of assumptions when we write regulations or set policy.

The word "cadet" often is attached to a mental picture of a 12-14 year old.  While some of those cadets are legal adults, living on their own, driving cars, working, voting, and generally doing everything that adults do.....and then they go to a CAP activity and they are treated like "children".

I have had a lot of conversations with over 18 cadets who resent being treated like children...but the bottom line is that the regulations are written in such a way that Cadets are in fact children.  Right, wrong or indifferent that is the way things are.

So here is my proposed solution to the problem. (. . .)

Which boils down to . . .


"The problem is that we often make a lot of assumptions . . . "


"The word "cadet" often is attached to a mental picture of a 12-14 year old. "


"I have had a lot of conversations with over 18 cadets who resent being treated like children."


which leads to "angst and Knuckel-biting ."



Nope, maybe I'm just being dense today, but I'm still not seeing a problem here.  No assertions of missions unfulfilled, persons injured, or resources wasted.

At best, the author was suggesting that sometimes some folks' feelings get hurt by others who do not understand our regulations and show respect for our cadets.

Not exactly a mandate to tossing cadets out of the program, is it?



If that's the best statement of the "problem," then we're pretty much done here.

Ned Lee

[Johnny Yuma]

I hashed and rehashed this earlier in the CPPT thread 6 months ago.

A kid can join at 12 and leave at 21. That's nine years to complete a program you can possibly complete in what, 3.5, 4 years?

On top of that the organizations's playing games with legal adults making them pretend they're minors when they're not.

The cadet program needs to end at 18, period. A cadet at 18 who doesn't have his Mitchell needs to be handed an Adult application or shown the door.

The cadet who has at least his Mitchell should be automatically made a Senior member. Earhart's get FO immediately, Eaker's get TFO and Spaatz's get SFO.

These new seniors could either follow the established professional development paths or (IMHO) continue on the old cadet course of AE, leadership labs and SDA's just like when they were cadets. It would be just like they were still in the cadet program, just no cadet rank earned and they wouldn't work with cadets directly.

This simplifies so much it isn't funny.

[mikeylikey]

The cadet program needs to end at 18, period. A cadet at 18 who doesn't have his Mitchell needs to be handed an Adult application or shown the door.

I agree with you, but I would allow those that are still Cadets and still in High School when they turn 18 to continue in the Cadet program until they graduate from High School.  Then I would immediately hand them the Senior Member Application. 

 

[NC Hokie]

How about this:

Make the flight officer program an optional bridge between the cadet and senior programs.  Cadets would progress through the CP until they turn 18 or graduate from high school.  At that point, they have the option to move into the flight officer program to continue working on their cadet achievements or move directly into the senior program.  Cadet grades would convert to flight officer grades as follows:

Flight Officer = C/2d Lt and below
Technical Flight Officer = C/1st Lt and C/Capt
Senior Flight Officer = C/Maj and C/Lt Col

Cadet colonels would move immediately into the senior program by virtue of the fact that they will have completed all of the cadet program.

New members between the ages of 18-21 would join as senior members.

[CASH172]

I'm sorry but I just can't agree with any of what you guys say regarding converting membership upon high school graduation.  I just don't see that much of a point doing it.  Maybe I just can't think objectively because I'm in the same group you guys are talking about, but why would you want to do such things.  It would take so many opportunities away.  Also, with the option of joining until 18, a cadet still had 3 years to get something out of the cadet program.  What's a 17 and a half year old supposed to do.  Join as a cadet for 6 months, that doesn't make sense.  The current set up is good for giving a buffer zone for new cadets no matter when they join.