Over 18 Cadets

[Capt Rivera]

I for one would not make a promotion without the cadet turned officer displaying they can perform at the requested level. Promotions are not rewards/pay for a job well done, it is a bestowing of greater responsibility etc... [and is NOT about checking boxes]

arajca that cadet you mentioned, having displayed that he could function at or beyond the minimal requirements as interpreted by your CC is fine with me. Direct promotion because they performed "well" as a CADET does not warrant automatic Capt, 1st or 2nd Lt. As displayed by the cadet who quit...there is a reason it should not be available right away.  [In the grand scheme of things, I don't think CAP will miss out on having that mis motivated individual not a part of CAP]

At a minimum, NHQ should have stipulated the normal 6 month waiting period a new officer has... This gives some time where a commander can see that transitioned officer perform in the new roles and responsibilities they have... Then they can make an educated decision as to what rank and what specialty level the individual should have...

[ol'fido]

Philosophy is one thing. Ground truth is another. We do tend to treat FO,s as advanced cadets except when we need them to fill a senior  function that nobody else wants to fill.  In other words they get the scut work that nobody older or more senior wants. We also do this with cadets who are 21, have turned senior, and do have Lt or Capt grade now. We still tend to think of them as cadets because that is how we have seen them for several years and until they start getting a little grizzled around the edges we keep doing it. I have seen it done countless times.

Cadets who transition into the FO grades after achieving the milestone grades don't need the basic training that someone joining at 18 or 19 does( and where I am if you join after your 18th birthday you go senior, no choice. I have never heard of it being any other way until this thread.)

The main thing i am trying to convey without getting bogged down in 20 or 30 nitpicking posts of regs interpretation is that we need to TRAIN!!! We have to train ALL!!! of our seniors to do some of the same things that cadets do such as drill, customs and courtesies, uniform wear. We have to get seniors out on the drill pads. This is what I meant about incorporating cadet training into the FO training program. In this day and age, we can't count on seniors having military experience. We need a Camp Curry type training program for seniors!

[stratoflyer]

Hey here's one: at a PD event recently, there was a Col calling a few FO's as navy boys because of they're boat ranks.

[SarDragon]

Boat ranks?

I've been associated with Uncle Sam's Canoe Club all my life, and I have never seen Flight Officer or any of its variations used anywhere I've been. Got some more info on that? AF Col? CAP Col?

[DC]

Maybe because of the look of FO epaulets? The narrow lines, I guess are somewhat similar to naval officer ranks. Sort of... I guess

[SarDragon]

Different color, different width, different style of underlying structure? Nah, no confusion here.

YMMV.

[rightstuffpilot]

Why discourage an already difficult group to retain?  The average cadet who is dedicated enough to transition to the senior program in the first place, likely intends on participating.  The average cadet who has transitioned should not have to wait six months like a new senior member.  If you do not know the person or have doubts about them, I can understand why you might choose to do this.  However, by this time in the program, many of us have given 5 or 6 years of our life to civil air patrol, worked into the upper ranks of ES (including as high as a section chief), commanded encampments or activities with 50 or more cadets, earned the respect of our officers, and served through college when many of our peers simply left the program for greater priorities.  For anyone who thinks that a cadet has not earned the senior transition, take a closer look at the cadet program.  .05% of all cadets ever achieve the Spaatz.  Do you think the number of senior members that achieve 2d Lt, 1st Lt, or Captain is that low?  Doubt it.  By the time a cadet has earned the grade of C/Col or C/Lt Col RCLS, leadership manuals, and cadet experience cover far more than simple ECI-13 ever would.  The aerospace portion of the spaatz mirrors the SM Yeagar test, except, its closed book.  The Spaatz cadet also must complete a difficult essay and a PT test.  Keep in mind by this point, at a minimum, this cadet has also attended a one week encampment and a one week regional cadet leadership school or cadet officer school (in most cases).  Even a Senior Member Captain is not required to attend one or even two weeks of residential courses.  Does a person with this level of knowledge seem like he/she has the same CAP knowledge as a new senior member off the street?  I sure hope not.

[Grumpy]

Why discourage an already difficult group to retain?  The average cadet who is dedicated enough to transition to the senior program in the first place, likely intends on participating.  The average cadet who has transitioned should not have to wait six months like a new senior member.  If you do not know the person or have doubts about them, I can understand why you might choose to do this.  However, by this time in the program, many of us have given 5 or 6 years of our life to civil air patrol, worked into the upper ranks of ES (including as high as a section chief), commanded encampments or activities with 50 or more cadets, earned the respect of our officers, and served through college when many of our peers simply left the program for greater priorities.  For anyone who thinks that a cadet has not earned the senior transition, take a closer look at the cadet program.  .05% of all cadets ever achieve the Spaatz.  Do you think the number of senior members that achieve 2d Lt, 1st Lt, or Captain is that low?  Doubt it.  By the time a cadet has earned the grade of C/Col or C/Lt Col RCLS, leadership manuals, and cadet experience cover far more than simple ECI-13 ever would.  The aerospace portion of the spaatz mirrors the SM Yeagar test, except, its closed book.  The Spaatz cadet also must complete a difficult essay and a PT test.  Keep in mind by this point, at a minimum, this cadet has also attended a one week encampment and a one week regional cadet leadership school or cadet officer school (in most cases).  Even a Senior Member Captain is not required to attend one or even two weeks of residential courses.  Does a person with this level of knowledge seem like he/she has the same CAP knowledge as a new senior member off the street?  I sure hope not.

Wow!  What brand of soap was that?

[SarDragon]

For Grumps - Ivory Snow?

For Heidi - they're just jealous. "Illegitimi non carborundum."

[rightstuffpilot]

Thanks, Lol!  You made my night!    Fear not, I plan on crossing over come June 30th and giving back to the program that has given so much to me.

[kd5vid]

Ok so I am going to add my two cents to this conversation.

The issue is all about perspective.  As it has been said less that .05% of Cadets reach Spaatz and that is a very low percentage.  Spaatz Cadets are considered to be the cream of the crop and they should be considering all the training and tests that have to have been completed.  There is a reason that the MITCHELL Award is considered the equivalent of the Eagle Scout or Gold Award.  The Spaatz Award trains our cadets far beyond what the other "Youth Organizations" do.  As an Eagle Scout and a Eaker Cadet, I can honestly say that CAP better prepares our youth for entrance into the world.  The 12-18 Cadets can only learn so much.  But the 18-21 Cadets can learn so much more as they continue to progress through the program and gain experience in life.  This experience allows our Older Cadets to develop in ways that is truly second only to total immersion into the "real world".  I know many older cadets like myself that have had many doors opened to them due to their maturity and experience in CAP and in life due to CAP.  These cadets between the ages of 18-21 bring to the table a level of dedication that is rarely seen in Senior Member.  How many cadets or Senior Members between the Age of 18-25 are Rated IC3s or Ops Section Chiefs, or Ground Branch Directors/Air Branch Directors?  Very few.  The issue is not dedication of Cadets between the ages of 18-21 as a whole...it is dedication of Individual Cadets in Individual Units and that is where it needs to start and end.  If there is a problem with a cadet not doing his/her responsibility then it is up to the Unit to deal with it not NHQ to set forth a policy that prohibits 20y/o cadets to attend IACE!!  Lets remember that our Senior Cadets are the ones who run the cadet program.  Not the Senior Members.  Keep that in mind as you go to your next meeting and look around as you are at the next Encampment.

V/R,
Andrew Theismann, 1st Lt, CAP
C/Lieutenant Colonel (Ret.) EAKER #1840
Assistant Chief (Operations), Embry-Riddle Emergency Medical Services
Chief of Operations, North Texas Search and Rescue Agency
Emergency Medical Services Instructor #EMT15846

[Capt Rivera]

Lets remember that our Senior Cadets are the ones who run the cadet program.  Not the Senior Members.  Keep that in mind as you go to your next meeting and look around as you are at the next Encampment.

So the Cadet program can survive without Officers? I would love to see a cadet ask for anything, money/office space etc... and say... Don't worry, I'm a Cadet Col and I'm 20 years old. I have tuns of experience and I will be legally responsible for everything...You can trust me.... Oh and did I mention... My Bday is in 6 months... so someone else will be responsible. Why? Well when I turn 21, I wont be a cadet anymore... and cadets run this program.

[kd5vid]

So the Cadet program can survive without Officers? I would love to see a cadet ask for anything, money/office space etc... and say... Don't worry, I'm a Cadet Col and I'm 20 years old. I have tuns of experience and I will be legally responsible for everything...You can trust me.... Oh and did I mention... My Bday is in 6 months... soe someone else will be responsible. Why? Well when I turn 21, I wont be a cadet anymore... and cadets run this program.

Just to let you know.  It has happened.  Cadets are the driven ones.  If you don't like that go to a Senior Squadron and don't deal with cadets.

[DC]

Lets remember that our Senior Cadets are the ones who run the cadet program.  Not the Senior Members.  Keep that in mind as you go to your next meeting and look around as you are at the next Encampment.

So the Cadet program can survive without Officers? I would love to see a cadet ask for anything, money/office space etc... and say... Don't worry, I'm a Cadet Col and I'm 20 years old. I have tuns of experience and I will be legally responsible for everything...You can trust me.... Oh and did I mention... My Bday is in 6 months... soe someone else will be responsible. Why? Well when I turn 21, I wont be a cadet anymore... and cadets run this program.

That is not what he meant. Cadets should be running the Cadet Program. They should be planning the activities, and running the meeting. SMs have their own program to deal with. In a Cadet Squadron, it is their job to handle the higher functions that cadets cannot, whether by regulation, or inability due to age. But, the ideal squadron Cadet Program is run completely by cadets, with SMs serving only as advisors to the cadet staff.

[Capt Rivera]

Just to let you know.  It has happened.  Cadets are the driven ones.  If you don't like that go to a Senior Squadron and don't deal with cadets.

You sound like a driven individual, or am I mistaken? From your signature, you are NOT a cadet. So to use your statement:

Are you driven and therefor a cadet or are you an officer and therefor NOT a driven individual?

My point is that sometimes Cadets and Retired Cadets choose to remain blind to things. If you have an issue with how the program is managed, try to effect change.

Instead of demanding something is a right? Ask yourselves why promotions are NOT a right and why they are at the commanders discretion. Officers do not have the right to any promotion and neither does any cadet. Earning a promotion is not a result of checking some boxes but rather the entrusting of one being able to perform at the level you were last promoted to.

A commanders expectation of performance, responsibility, respect etc should increase with every promotion he/she considers giving. 

[Capt Rivera]

That is not what he meant. Cadets should be running the Cadet Program. They should be planning the activities, and running the meeting.

Yes the program as designed by Officers is one in which Cadets SHOULD be running the Cadet Program.

SMs have their own program to deal with. In a Cadet Squadron, it is their job to handle the higher functions that cadets cannot, whether by regulation, or inability due to age.

In any squadron with cadets in it (Cadet or Composite) it is the Officers job to handle the "higher functions that cadets cannot, whether by regulation, or inability due to age." I point this out as I was directed to go join a Senior Squadron....

But, the ideal squadron Cadet Program is run completely by cadets, with SMs serving only as advisors to the cadet staff.

Yes, again, cadets should run the Cadet Program if at all possible. The cadet program as defined by regulation, leaves out a lot of things that happens at every level of CAP from NHQ down to a flight. (All those things that officers do) Lets not forget that....

 

[jimmydeanno]

It is important to remember that these are "ideal" squadron situations.  Situations where every squadron has a C/Lt Col as the C/CC and C/1st Lts at C/Flt CCs with ample NCO support and a C/1Sgt. 

However, I think we all know that we do not live in the ideal world and most squadrons have an average of 10-15 cadets on any given night.  We also realize that even bigger squadrons are usually either bottom or top heavy at any given time.

The bottom heavy ones or the ones without a cadet who's the appropriate grade neccesitates the need for more senior involvement until there are cadets who are capable of filling those roles.  If there is only a C/SSgt in the squadron, make them a flight sergeant and have the senior CP staff pick up the rest of the slack. 

So, ideally cadets should be able to impliment the CP, but no matter what you do, the senior members will always be responsible for the administration and oversight of that program.  Seniors call the shots in the end, no matter what the situation.

Even in the ROTC realm there is still oversight and involvement from the commandants, detachment commanders, etc.  There are still experienced instructors, advisors, managers, etc.  Because cadets are just that, cadets.  They are still learning and should have experienced responsible people to make sure that things are being done correctly.

The cadet program needs to have people who are responsible for the overall success of the CP, which includes being responsible to parents, to the law, to our corporation.  If the cadet program starts to fail we as seniors have the responsibility to ensure that it doesn't.

Now, of course there are methods to do this which don't include a hostile takeover, but sometimes it does involve reshaping the cadet staff and having more "direct" senior involvement until things get back to where they should/need to be.

The one thing that the cadet program doesn't teach you is the hands on difference between being a senior and being a cadet.  There is more transition than most cadets realize and more things to learn than they realize.  Being a senior requires you to really put those leadership lessons to use because there isn't a safety net anymore.

[Capt Rivera]

Could not have said it any better or clearer...  :clap:

[kd5vid]

The one thing that the cadet program doesn't teach you is the hands on difference between being a senior and being a cadet.  There is more transition than most cadets realize and more things to learn than they realize.  Being a senior requires you to really put those leadership lessons to use because there isn't a safety net anymore.

I guess it really just depends on how you look at it.  The senior cadets are being trained to be officers and as officers they are trained to take a hands off approach to the running of the Cadet Squadron and Cadet Staff.  True there is a learning curve in the transition from Cadet to Senior, the issue isn't that though.  The issue is the difference in maturity from 18 to 21.  A cadet at 18 is normally not ready to join as a Senior.  Granted you have the FO corps to think about, but the majority of them became a Senior out of choice or lack of desire to complete the cadet program.  Those cadets who want to continue in the Cadet Program should be treated as such.  Adults who want to further their education in ways that others their age do not have available.  Yes, the regulations do prohibit some things and those are understandable, but if the regulations allow it and the commander approves it why is it an issue.  Promotions for example, a Spaatz Cadet can receive a promotion to Captain immediately after turning 21.  This is to not only recognize the accomplishments of those Former Cadets but it is also to recognize their level of knowledge and experience in CAP.  As C/Klein so aptfully pointed out, ECI 13 does not cover even half the material that Phase IV covers in CAP and it's missions.  By your thought process, a Certified Flight Instructor should not receive Captains Bars due to his experience in flight, or a Chaplain should not receive a promotion based of Professional Status.  While CAP is a Para-Military Organization, it is still that, An Organization that is run by volunteers who achieve alot in their own professional life.

I will not step off the Soap Box.

-Andrew

[lordmonar]

The issue is the difference in maturity from 18 to 21.  A cadet at 18 is normally not ready to join as a Senior.

If that is so...and I am not debating it one way or the other....then NO ONE is is ready to join as a senior below 21.

I can live with this.....if we allow 19 year olds to join as cadets.