Should CAP have cargo aircraft?

[Nomex Maximus]

CAP has a large fleet of aircraft deployed about the country ready to assist in search and rescue and aerial reconnaissance. But what really seems to be a need in times of disaster is a capability for delivering cargo to remote sites. Our 172/182s are really next to useless in this role. Should CAP get into the business of maintaining, flying and using small cargo aircraft?

What I would envision would be us having something sort of rugged that can make flights into and out of small fields and grass strips. Turboprop power. Perhaps a twin Otter or some such. Not your average ordinary PP-ASEL would be recruited to fly it but commercial or ATP rated pilots with lots of hours. And since this airplane would be too expensive for members to rent for proficiency flying, then get the government to fund training of properly selected and qualified pilots.

Yes, this would be a lot more expensive than CAP is used to, but maybe it's time for CAP to evolve and step up to greater contributions. 

[dougsnow]

Keeping with Cessna...

The Cessna 208 - the plane the FEDEX feeder operation flies. Maybe a wing-level asset that can be used to deploy people and stuff when the need to be forward deployed arises...

[IceNine]

Yes, but we need to go with a Sovereign!

Big enough for comfort, and mobile Command center, fast enough for rapid deployment.  I mean I suppose we could go with the caravan but its slow, not pressurized and only smells like JP4 because of the turbo props

LGA->LAX 5 hours

[dougsnow]

Yeah, that would be sweet, but we also need the ability to haul stuff, not just people.

If we are going to be expected to forward deploy (of which I have no problems with), then we need to be able to

A - support our flight operations internally, at least at flight-line level. Pilots are authorized per FAR 43 to perform some light preventative maintenance; that would require an asset that can lift some stuff.

B - Get mother AF to be willing to lift some stuff for us, granted I would doubt we would need the volume of a  C-130 cargo hold.

Another idea - the C23 Sherpa...

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/c-23.htm

[mikeylikey]

NO.  If we can not even get our Wings to respond to incidents ore emergencies in their own state, how can we expect a need for forward operating.

[RiverAux]

I don't see any real need for this.  Actually, such a role might better be reserved for member-owned aircraft provided we made changes in our regulations that made it a little easier to use them for this role and perhaps tracked them better. 

[flyerthom]

How much can a GA 8 sans Archer haul? CAP already has C 206's which can haul a bit of stuff too. I really don't think we need DC-3 's

[Pylon]

How much can a GA 8 sans Archer haul?

Isn't it a big production to remove the ARCHER unit from a GA-8, though?

[ZigZag911]

Yes, removing/re-installing ARCHER gear is a big job, not really good for the equipment.

This might be a role for civil aviation rather than CAP....perhaps a way for FEDEX/UPS to 'give back', community involvement.....contribute some services , at east when we are talking relief supplies.

Was anyone on here involved in the management or support side of CAP's service following Hurricane Katrina?  I'm wondering how great the need for transport of CAP equipment was, how much was involved? And is airlift the most practical and efficient way to do this?

[Nomex Maximus]

I wasn't thinking so much in terms of hauling CAP resources forward as much as I was thinking in terms of hauling high priority disater relief supplies. But, I suppose there could be a case made for hauling needed cargo or personnel in such an airplane.

Such an asset should be allocated at the region level and should have it's own specialized squadron to support it's operations. I'm thinking that squadron would have a set of qualified pilots, qualified A&Ps, support aircrews, support ground crew, vehicles and a real hanger and tools sufficient for doing basic maintenance.

Yes, yes, I know, that all costs money... but the benefits to disaster relief would be very worthwhile.

[Nomex Maximus]

. . .

Was anyone on here involved in the management or support side of CAP's service following Hurricane Katrina?  I'm wondering how great the need for transport of CAP equipment was, how much was involved? And is airlift the most practical and efficient way to do this?

Just watching the news we know that there were lots of places that had nothing whatsoever for days and weeks on end. A plane load of MREs or a medical team could have done a lot of good.

[ZigZag911]

My point is that this is a circumstance that calls for mobilizing the assistance of the 'subject matter experts', that is, USAF Mobility Command (apologies if that isn't current term!) and civilian freight haulers....they'll do it quicker, know the routes, and simply approach the whole situation with greater efficiency.

WIWAC we learned about 'civil reserve air fleet'...does that still exist? Does it have application in DR situation?

[Stonewall]

[Just watching the news we know that there were lots of places that had nothing whatsoever for days and weeks on end. A plane load of MREs or a medical team could have done a lot of good.

That's what the Air Guard and Air Reserves were used for.  My squadron at the time, 167th AS our of WVANG, along with our sister squadron out of Charlestown, WV, flew relief missions during Katrina.  Not only that, but they evacuated folks.  My current wing in Georgia did the same, and my Security Police squadron provided security.

The AFRES PJs out of Patrick AFB deployed there as well, performing more than 1000 rescues, not to mention other missions.

And these are just the units I have personal experience with.

Not sure CAP, a volunteer non-paid organization, should start getting in deeper than we already are, when we can commit 100% of our assets 100% of the time.

[RiverAux]

Personally, I think we're just fine where we're at -- occassional transport of small items or a couple of personnel when other resources aren't available.  As pointed out, the Air Guard generally has plenty of capacity for large-scale movements and I'm just not sure there is enough of a "market" for cargo/personnel movements between our current capability and the Air Guard's to justify getting bigger (but still small) aircraft. 

[mikeylikey]

I wasn't thinking so much in terms of hauling CAP resources forward as much as I was thinking in terms of hauling high priority disaster relief supplies. But, I suppose there could be a case made for hauling needed cargo or personnel in such an airplane.

UMMMM......are tax $$ is already supporting that program.  It is called FEMA.  Does it work, answere is NO, but the resources already exist.  I am sorry to say, but the way CAPNHQ advertises how "CAP transports supplies (BLOOD) is totally incorrect these days.  They should stop preaching it!!

[RiverAux]

I am sorry to say, but the way CAPNHQ advertises how "CAP transports supplies (BLOOD) is totally incorrect these days.  They should stop preaching it!!

Still happens in some areas....from what I understand the AFRCC will approve blood/parts transport missions for specific patients.  For example, if John Doe needs blood or a heart, they'll authorize a mission for CAP to fly it to them.  However, if Chicago's County Hospital is short of blood in general, they wouldn't authorize CAP to fly blood stocks to them so that they could replenish their inventory. 

[dougsnow]

WIWAC we learned about 'civil reserve air fleet'...does that still exist? Does it have application in DR situation?

Yes, all of the civilian widebody airliners flying troops into/out of Iraq and Afghanistan is done as Civil Reserve Air Fleet (CRAF) missions - same for the cargo missions flown into/out of the AOR as well - all CRAF missions.

When you're watching the Military Channel, and see the troops lining up to board a UAL B747-400/OP bird in the Reconnect America commercial, that aircraft is operating under CRAF mission rules, and the aircrew have those Geneva Convention Cards giving them a rank equivalent if captured.

[ZigZag911]

Well, why could not FEDEX, DHL, UPS fleets be called into service during disaster as cargo transportation?

[Nomex Maximus]

Cost. We fly for free. Just the cost of flying the government provided airplanes. Fedex, DHL, etc, will charge a premium price for taking their airplanes out of regular service.

[isuhawkeye]

Dont forget that once an event crosses a certain threshold cost no longer becomes  an arguing point. 

[SJFedor]

Why buy new planes? The AF already has them!

I would imagine (and have heard) that the USAF can provide airlift for us during large scale operations, which is the only time we'd need to move a ton of stuff a long distance. Why bother with a 208 when they can task a 130 to come grab a bunch of our personnel, lots of toys, etc?

[NIN]

Why bother with a 208 when they can task a 130 to come grab a bunch of our personnel, lots of toys, etc?

If they would...

C-23-type acft are OK, but they're not capable enough to haul, say, a vehicle. You're looking at a C-22J for that.

But in the same class as the C-23, you have the Casa 212.  mmMMm, Casa....

(which will haul a Suzuki Samauri if you ask it to... But nothing wider...)

Since we're buying Aussie anyway, what about the PAC-750XL?  Its from New Zealand.. Close enough.

Seriously though

[PHall]

Well, why could not FEDEX, DHL, UPS fleets be called into service during disaster as cargo transportation?

If they're a member of the CRAF, they could be called up, by the President when he activates the CRAF.

[PHall]

My point is that this is a circumstance that calls for mobilizing the assistance of the 'subject matter experts', that is, USAF Mobility Command (apologies if that isn't current term!) and civilian freight haulers....they'll do it quicker, know the routes, and simply approach the whole situation with greater efficiency.

WIWAC we learned about 'civil reserve air fleet'...does that still exist? Does it have application in DR situation?

Its Air Mobility Command, but you were close, you get half a cookie.

CRAF still exists. They fly to Iraq and Afghanistan just about every day. But they don't really have the right planes for most DR type missions. The military's C-5's, C-17's and C-130's are much more suited for DR missions, they don't require stuff like power carts and air bridges.

[Frenchie]

Well, why could not FEDEX, DHL, UPS fleets be called into service during disaster as cargo transportation?

If they're a member of the CRAF, they could be called up, by the President when he activates the CRAF.

I believe the CRAF only includes large aircraft intended for global transport.  Certainly this capability could be expanded to include smaller commerical carriers like FedEx's fleet of Caravans, but there's really no need for the type of mission the OP envisions.  There's already ample capability in the national guard in the form of everything from small helicopters all the way to C-130s (and even larger aircraft).

The CAP doesn't need to get into the transportation business.  It would be too maintenance and manpower intensive to maintain these types of aircraft and aircrews for a very infrequent demand and there's too many other organizations out there (like the national guard) which will always be able to do those missions better than CAP.

CAP just needs to focus on what it does well, which is to operate small single engine piston aircraft like the C172/C182 in missions which these aircraft are well suited.  That's the CAP's strength and what it will always do better and cheaper than anyone else.  Just my $.02 worth.