Can DF Team Response Time be Improved??

[RADIOMAN015]

   Again being new to CAP, I'm in the learning curve.  BUT it seems that it takes greater than 1 hour after alert to really either have a UDF team or a aircraft in the air trying to track a distress ELT.  With forms to fill out get enough team members (minimum of 2), etc, IF there was a survivor in the crash that golden hour is going to past very quickly and the search is emergency medical evacuation is going to be more of a recovery.   My personal thoughts are that 1 CAP member can adequately respond to an area with DF gear & readily get assistance from local public safety officials (e.g. fire, police, game wardens, environment police, park rangers etc) to assist with tracking the signal.  This is based upon individual member's having the (newer) DF gear in their vehicles rather than responding to a central location to pickup the gear.  For example I work in a suburban/rural environment with some large hills close by that I could easily drive up (immediately upon alert) to determine if the signal was in my "response zone" (each unit (or wing or group) would set up response zones based upon where member's lived an/or worked).  Getting assistance would be just one cellphone call to the local town or state police dispatch center that could augmet my efforts.  I do agree that one person operating alone is a safety problem BUT in most instance even a team would have local public safety officials with them if they were close to a potential find in order to provide proper medical care & rescue services....    Am I full of hot air on this concept or is my high enthusiasm for potentially assisting in saving a life clouding the reality of operations....
As a side note what is the average time from a SARSAT hit to CAP being alerted and than both ground & air teams being dispatched?  I think that that in non flyable weather this even becomes more critical.  As a side note also, in my state the state police vehicles all have radio scanners in them & I have to wonder if a protocol could be established for alerting their patrols in a potential ELT area to turn the scanner to 121.5 mhz to see if they monitor any signals?  This could also greatly help in isolating the are quickly, especially if weather conditions did not allow aircraft to fly!!!

RADIOMAN         

[RiverAux]

IF there was a survivor in the crash that golden hour is going to past very quickly

The golden hour is long past before CAP even gets the call.  Depending on sat schedules & other factors it may be 3+ hours after the initial detection before AFRCC notifies anybody about an old-style ELT activation. 

Unless your unit is overrun with DF units and has one for everybody to keep in their car, I'm not sure your idea is very practical. 

[Robborsari]

An exception to that is if an aircraft on a flightplan goes overdue.  Then a plan that has many monitoring stations could be useful.  You might be able to activate all the listeners on the route and have them check for an elt.  It might help narrow down the search area and speed up the process of getting someone in the air.  You would not need a DF unit for that, just a radio capable of receiving 121.5. 

Just getting more people to use flightplans seems more important to me than any other factor for speeding up the sar response. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Flight plans MIGHT shave an hour off the response.

The first thing that happens when you are overdue on your flight plan, is the FAA guys call your destination airport.  The FBO guys check to see if you landed and forgot to close out your plan, then they call back to the FAA and tell them that your plane is not there.  The FAA doesn't do this until you are about an hour overdue.

THEN the FAA calls your house.  If you answer the phone, they yell at you.  If you don't, they call the Air Force.

Then the Air Force calls the wing, the wing calls the IC, and the IC calls up a crew or two, and the search is on.

The "Golden Hour" is long past before anybody even begins checking.  That's why we don't need sirens.

If the pilot went down two hours into a plannned 4 hour flight, it will be 3 hours before he's overdue enough for the FAA to begin calling.

This is still better than a no-flight-plan ELT search.  The AFRCC waits until 2 sattelite passes confirm an ELT signal before they call out the CAP wing.  That alone can be 6 hours.

That SHOULD be one of our more important and lifesaving "External Aerospace Education" functions... letting new and not-so-new general aviation pilots know what to carry to survive the 10-24 hours it will take to find their wreckage if they engage in an unplanned camping trip.

[calguy]

In California once the AFRCC calls us, the Wing by an MOU with our state OES requires us to respond within one hour.  The Wing folks tries to enforce that but with little support.  We have even been turning mission back to the State because we cannot locate an IC or aircraft or udf teams.
For flying, it really is the golden 24 hours for survivability.
I always thought it would be great if we put a page out and everyone would go grab their L-Per and turn them on.  Nobody wants to do that either.  A perfect system would have ELT monitors at every airport with trained FBO, tower, or airport staff. 
In California some ICs won't even consider starting to search for an ELT until after 8 am, maybe a 12 hour delay. On the other extreme, we have some ICs that run the mission, go out on the mission and secure the ELT.  They are generally resented.

[Tubacap]

Why?  Resenting ICs that de-activate an ELT and get it off the map should be thanked if they are the only "team" available.  Seems like a cultural shift needs to take place.

[RiverAux]

Well, I've seen some ICs that do tend to hog some ELT missions for themselves rather than calling out a unit.  This is probably rare, but it happens. 

[ZigZag911]

Actually ICs are not supposed to go out on the mission and deactivate ELTs....they are supposed to mind the fort, including generally acting as their own safety officer -- so if someone goes overdue on check in, or runs into a problem, there is a 'base' person to reach out to for help.

BTW, a DF or UDF team of one CAP member is also a safety violation.

[davedove]

This is based upon individual member's having the (newer) DF gear in their vehicles rather than responding to a central location to pickup the gear. 

This is probably the biggest practical reason this plan might not work.  DF units cost money, and most units don't have the funds to get every qualified member his own unit.  Of course, members could purchase their own units, but most can't or won't be willing to shell out the funds.

Then of course there are all the regulatory and safety requirements.

[calguy]

Actually ICs are not supposed to go out on the mission and deactivate ELTs....they are supposed to mind the fort, including generally acting as their own safety officer -- so if someone goes overdue on check in, or runs into a problem, there is a 'base' person to reach out to for help.

BTW, a DF or UDF team of one CAP member is also a safety violation.

It has come down to just send one out or turn the mission back to the sheriff.  We have UDF teams driving 120 miles one way past 3 groups, 15 squadrons, 8 aircraft to turn an ELT off.  We had one team drive 100 miles to turn an ELT off in a CAP aircraft.  The aircraft's squadron couldn't field a team or crew.  Were hurting in southern California, basicly on life support.  The DOS couldn't get any support from the CC and quit.  Wonder why?

[RiverAux]

Actually ICs are not supposed to go out on the mission and deactivate ELTs....they are supposed to mind the fort, including generally acting as their own safety officer -- so if someone goes overdue on check in, or runs into a problem, there is a 'base' person to reach out to for help.

BTW, a DF or UDF team of one CAP member is also a safety violation.

Technically, an IC and 1 other person could go out as a UDF team without violating any ICS standards.   Keep in mind you're only supposed to expand the mission staff as much as necessary to carry out the mission, so if the IC thought him and one other person could do the job -- which they most certainly could for an ELT mission, it wouldn't break any "rule".  Now, personally I don't think it is a good practice -- any IC doing this is probably a pretty experienced ground guy and they should be giving the opportunity to somebody else to do this mission and improve their own skills. 

I think sometimes ICs just get tired of being rejected when they try to round up someone else to do the job and they figure they can just cut total mission time by doing it themselves so they can get to bed earlier.

[SJFedor]

AFRCC notification of missing aircraft to CAP activation can be between 4-8 hours. Active ELT signal can be 3-6 hours prior to notification. Overdue aircraft on VFR flight plan can take 4-8 hours before AFRCC is even notified. Overdue on an IFR flight plan is about 1.1 hours.

I'm currently working on QA'ing my Group's response times to actuals, from first notification to first wheels up or departure en route to area. So far, we've been doing pretty well. We had one a few months ago with an ELT in a UH-60, we got the call at around 3:10am, wheels up for the aircraft was around 5:15am (would have been an hour sooner if the nearest aircraft wasn't in it's 100 hr), we had the signal by 5:35, and knew the immediate area of where it was (on field at an airport) and that it was a non distress by 5:50.

Since we had woken up the GT and made them start rolling, and knew it was a non distress,  the aircrew (myself and another MP) elected to allow the GT to arrive and DF the signal to the source. As a GT member, i've always hated the early morning calls just to get turned back 5 miles from the source because the aircrew found it and handled it.

Unfortunately, we're not a "rapid response" organization. I'm working on creating a tiered response for my group out of dedicated, motivated seniors and cadets that really want to play in the game, with different alerting trees for the different scopes of the mission. Small ELT search? Tier 1. Missing aircraft, possibility of a few days searching? Tier 2. Large scale SAR or DR mission? Tier 3. The main objective is to get lots of smaller teams for the tier 1 responses, that way we can rotate missions to the different teams, they all get the call outs, but not nearly enough to get them burnt out. Bigger ones, we can activate more teams at once.

Still a work in progress. I better get my nomex on, here come the flames!

[WoodlandSARman]

We have a GT or two in my wing one of them in my group that are known for being on the road searching an hour after they get the call.

Its all about everyone having a job and knowing how to do it well.

Im not an IC but as the group ES officer if something happens in my group I plan to go with a team if I can to help or observe. Or will take a team that does not have a GTL or have one that is available.

[0]

The team I have been a part of have a good reputation of being out on the road heading to the target within an hour of being activated ourselves.  It helps that we're all within about 15 minutes of each other.

[dbaran]

Here was the timeline for an ELT that I worked last week (Northern California):

First hits from the SARSAT that AFRCC gave to the IC occurred around 4 and 5pm.  The coordinates appeared to be moving along a 5 mile trail and were out in the water (SF Bay) initially.

The page came out for a UDF team at 8 pm as an off-airport (there were three merges at this point) 121.5/243 ELT (so we went looking for a boat).

UDF team was together with 2 ELPers and a corporate vehicle near the first merge by 9pm.   We drove to check the merge points that were coming in for the next 2 hours - nothing.   The aircrew was overhead by about 10:20pm, but they had to come from across the state.   It was a carrier only signal (no sweep tone) and was localized to the airport by 11pm.

We had the target located by about 11:30 pm (of course, it was an airplane on the ramp).    The ELT had its battery changed about noon and we found that the mechanic had left the switch on the actual ELT in the "on" position.    So for this one, we have a pretty good idea when the fun actually started.

Based on this ... about 11 hrs 30 minutes total, of which CAP was involved only for the last 3 hrs 30 mins.

-- Dave

[calguy]

The goal of many members that get on the road fast is to have all their equipment and uniforms in their vehicles.  There is a member in San Diego that has an ELT receiver on one of the areas tallest mountain, about 6000 feet above the valley below.  That give everyone a heads up.  He and a few others also monitor 121.5 whenever they are driving around.  They get off to a fast start, they seem to be on the road 15 minutes or less.  These are the guys that get all the missions and all the finds.  They are pretty good, the had a ALNOT for a crashed airplane that crashed near the local VOR on a mountain ridgeline.  They had to drive about 40 miles of 2 lane mountain roads and had the crash located without a radar track, elt only in just a little over an hour from the time the mission was given to them by the AFRCC.  Thats a good goal, but for CAWG standards, the exception.

[Major Carrales]

IF there was a survivor in the crash that golden hour is going to past very quickly

The golden hour is long past before CAP even gets the call.  Depending on sat schedules & other factors it may be 3+ hours after the initial detection before AFRCC notifies anybody about an old-style ELT activation. 

Unless your unit is overrun with DF units and has one for everybody to keep in their car, I'm not sure your idea is very practical. 

That is why, along with training on the DF units, we informally train UDF teams to use a handheld scanner to search for ELTs.  The later is the instrument most likely to be used.

[Tom_Charpentier]

Most people will respond that - We are all volunteers and you cannot expect a response in less than one or two hours. I don not agree with that philosophy. If you want the response time reduced then reduce it. Respond to the call. In CAWG we have a paging system. ICs can page North, South, Central, or all of CAWG with a single E-mail. I try to be on the road within 10 to 15 minutes after getting a page. But this means you have to have your own equipment in your car. I carry 2 L-Pers (it's nice to have a backup) in my vehicle most of the time, so I'm ready to go. Your personal commitment and dedication to the task is what will shorten response times. Don't count on the other guys. They can't always be there.

By the way I collect L-Pers, and resell them to interested parties. I still have four (4) new in the case, old model dual band L-Pers ready to sell @ $300.00 for the set. Also, in my opinion, the older models (although not as sexy looking) work better than the new one.

TC

[Civilian_Pilot]

Don't count on the other guys. They can't always be there.


TC

Well, when the other guys do show up say in.... helicopters equipped with FLIR, wouldn't you agree they would be a valuable asset?

Especially in a search that has produced no results going into the second week?

[Eclipse]

Most people will respond that - We are all volunteers and you cannot expect a response in less than one or two hours. I don not agree with that philosophy. If you want the response time reduced then reduce it. Respond to the call. In CAWG we have a paging system. ICs can page North, South, Central, or all of CAWG with a single E-mail. I try to be on the road within 10 to 15 minutes after getting a page. But this means you have to have your own equipment in your car. I carry 2 L-Pers (it's nice to have a backup) in my vehicle most of the time, so I'm ready to go. Your personal commitment and dedication to the task is what will shorten response times. Don't count on the other guys. They can't always be there.

By the way I collect L-Pers, and resell them to interested parties. I still have four (4) new in the case, old model dual band L-Pers ready to sell @ $300.00 for the set. Also, in my opinion, the older models (although not as sexy looking) work better than the new one.

TC

A one-hour response from an organization which is not on ready alert is not only reasonable, it is amazing.
The majority of us, even those with very flexible situations, do not have the ability to respond in 10-15 minutes, and that's with gear in car.

Since a UDF team is a minimum of two people, who have to call in, be accepted, hit the road, and meet up, unless they live together or work together, this is nearly a physical impossibility.

Since the realities of the SARSAT system mean that most ELT missions are 4-6 hours old, (since the AFRCC generally will not release an IC until they get at least two passes) the "golden hour" is long since past by then.

Also, at least by us, most ELT missions are after 5pm and before 5am.  Why?  Because during business hours the AFRCC or the IC can call the airports and simply ask if an ELT is heard. Its not until the mechanics close the hanger door, or the pilots go to dinner (without listening to 121.5 as they should), that unattended hits are heard by the birds.  Generally in urban areas crashes are seen/heard by the public, but its at night that planes go down with no fire in rural areas and we go hunting.

I am all for treating ELTs (and all missions) with an appropriate  sense of urgency, and that mindset should include letting  employers know of your affiliation, having gear and vehicles ready, and even specific alert crews who should be expected to at least be handy for missions so the call sheets are shorter.

But you can't expect volunteers with lives to sit in their vehicles with the motors running waiting for a call.
Its simply not reasonable.

[Civilian_Pilot]

But you can't expect volunteers with lives to sit in their vehicles with the motors running waiting for a call.

Its simply not reasonable.

You don't know Tom.

[A.Member]

But you can't expect volunteers with lives to sit in their vehicles with the motors running waiting for a call.

Its simply not reasonable.

You don't know Tom.

Civilian_pilot, with all due respect, you've made your feelings on the issue very clear.  No only in this thread but in numerous other threads as well.  You are now just repeating yourself - ie. beating that proverbial dead horse.  Based on some of your comments, it can be assumed that you've never taken part in a SAR mission, and most certainly not this one in particular.  Given this, you might be better served by dialing it back a notch and trying to learn more before jumping to conclusions.  I understand and appreciate your concern but you must also understand that we have a tremendous amount of SAR experience and we're very good at what we do.

[Civilian_Pilot]

  Based on some of your comments, it can be assumed that you've never taken part in a SAR mission, and most certainly not this one in particular.  Given this, you might be better served by dialing it back a notch and trying to learn more before jumping to conclusions.  I understand and appreciate your concern but you must also understand that we have a tremendous amount of SAR experience and we're very good at what we do.

This is true,  I have never been involved in a SAR other than reporting ELT transmissions on 121.5 to ATC or listening for an ELT at their request.

But I doubt you have any experience at doing what I do which is make a living flying.  As such (until now) I had a preconceived idea of CAP.  Honestly it was pretty favorable...  Until I read how the grandstanding was in Ops for the Fossett search and understood how much one person can impact a critical operation.

Part of the safety net that I have as a working pilot is CAP.  Without working pilots CAP would have no reason for being what it is.

Ultimately the point I am getting at is somehow my perception of the organization became something less than it was after reading a few of the actions which transpired in the Fossett search operations. 

The funny thing is it's hard for me to quantify exactly why.

[RiverAux]

Don't feed the troll. 

[Johnny Yuma]

Here in KSWG we have one unit ES officer who's house is nicknamed The Firehouse because at any given time there's enough Seniors and Cadets hanging out and eating at his house to field 1-2 GT's. Response time varies on what being served, since most of our ELT missions begin between 1800-2000. Taco night gets pretty fast response (20 minutes) but if it's Seafood night we're going to finish our Crab Legs first (30 minutes). If Phil's barbecuing it'll take a little longer to clean up and get changed.

Then again this unit is the closest thing to an Infantry Company CAP has, complete with marksmanship program!

[SJESOFFICER]

[


Part of the safety net that I have as a working pilot is CAP.  Without working pilots CAP would have no reason for being what it is.

SAR may be an integral part of us but its not our only mission or our how we started...  That one event you mentioned flared some people but it didn't effect search efforts...