National Cadet Competition

[DTcommander042]

Okay, so my drill team has been together since October, we've had many practices and overall we are doing well.  This is the first year my wing has had a drill team in many, many years.  We won (by default) at wing and regionals.  Therefore we are going to nationals with no previous competition experience.  Any advice??

[Майор Хаткевич]

Your whole region only had one team?

[DTcommander042]

Correct.  Typically the only drill teams we have are Texas and Arizona but this year the only one that was there was mine, Arkansas.

[lordmonar]

Okay, so my drill team has been together since October, we've had many practices and overall we are doing well.  This is the first year my wing has had a drill team in many, many years.  We won (by default) at wing and regionals.  Therefore we are going to nationals with no previous competition experience.  Any advice??

Have Fun!

[Майор Хаткевич]

So...just curious, but anyone know how many total teams compete on average?

[Huey Driver]

So...just curious, but anyone know how many total teams compete on average?

Per wing? Region? National?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Over the whole NCC process.

[a2capt]

The Wikipedia Page was fairy active the last couple years, and has a fair amont of detail from the past:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Air_Patrol_National_Cadet_Competition

This time around it's kinda dead so far. NHQ only recently announced the dates for this year, a month later than typical, and a day shorter than last years already shortened schedule.

In, out, boom.  Arrive Wed. and do the written test, Thursday it's all the performance events. Friday is mile run and panel quiz, followed by awards in the evening. Fly home Saturday.

[Storm Chaser]

Correct.  Typically the only drill teams we have are Texas and Arizona but this year the only one that was there was mine, Arkansas.

That is sad. This year Florida Wing didn't have competitions either (I'm relatively new to the wing so I'm not sure what they did last year) and formed a drill team from multiple squadrons, I believe. A cadet from my squadron was invited to participate after results from the Special Activities Selection Board, but unfortunately practice was about 7 hours away.

When I was a cadet we used to have group competitions and the group team winner would go to the wing competition. I wonder how many other wings are in that same or similar situation you describe. Is NCC not as big as a deal as it used to be?

Anyway, you may be in a bit of a disadvantage there, so continue practicing for all the competition events and try to continue improving on your scores as you go. Do you have an advisor assigned from your Region Cadet Programs? Someone from your Region CP staff should be able to put you in contact with members of previous drill teams for your Region. They may be able to provide valuable advice, especially if their experience is recent. Good luck!

[Ned]

We've certainly have our fair share of threads on the strengths and weaknesses of the current NCC set up.  Even after the recent reductions in duration, it remains one of the single largest expenditures of CP funds.  It is a lot of airfares, meals, and rooms for the 16 teams and escorts.

The dedicated volunteer team that supports NCC works incredibly hard to make it as cost-effective as possible within the constraints of the 52-4. 

But we need to periodically assess every NCSA to ensure that we are being good guardians of appropriated and corporate assets (both time and treasure) and that the activity supports the program as a whole and cadet and composite units in specific.

"It's all about Tuesday night."  95% of what we do or fail to do for our cadets happens at the local squadron.

The last time we did a survey (about two years ago), approximately 5% of all cadets nationwide participated in NCC at the wing, region, or national level in a given year.

We have had some lively discussion about the concept of Superteams (cadets from more than one unit forming a wing or region team).  It is safe to say there is not yet a consensus on whether they help or hinder the NCC process and the individual units.  Many people feel strongly about the subject.

Ned Lee
CP Enthusiast

[Storm Chaser]

I can certainly appreciate the constraints and challenges faced by National with regards to NCC. I wonder how wings/regions are facing the same challenges. If only 5% of cadets are participating in the cadet competitions at all levels, then that seems like an indicator that the current setup for NCC (or better yet GCC/WCC/RCC) may need to be rethought. Is it too difficult for units to get a drill team going? Are the expenses too high? Or maybe there are just too many other activities going on to justify the huge effort involved for this one? Whatever the reasons, it seems certain that our current participation levels are not ideal.

[a2capt]

Is the 5% those who get to NCC, or is that including the feeder events?

Group/Wing -> Region -> NCC. I realize that there are instances when a drill team goes by default from as low as the Wing and even Group level, but there are still usually more color guards.

[Eclipse]

The problem with NCC is that it is a National activity that requires local participation to be successful, and right
now the majority of members, at least in my wing, say "meh", when asked.

My wing's NCC program has all but ground to a halt in the last 3-4 years, right on the heels of the region's.

Legitimate "competition" takes more then 1-2 teams "competing", and actually being "competitive" takes a fair effort, initiative,
and ain't cheap, either (especially for a legit national-level team).

So with little interest locally, you wind up with few teams competing, and fewer interested.

It all comes down to leadership, and putting the emphasis where it belongs.

The fix, again, is more people.

[Storm Chaser]

I understand and agree with what Eclipse is saying. In my current squadron, drill (much less NCC) has low priority. I have many C/SNCOs that are barely competent at basic D&C. It just hasn't been a priority for the senior leadership, who believe that those interested in D&C can participate in JROTC. For a while, there's also been a lax attitude with regards to C&C and uniform wear. Only in the last year has that changed a bit, in part because of my insistence that we adhere to standards. I suspect my squadron is not the only one like that.

[Ned]

Is the 5% those who get to NCC, or is that including the feeder events?

All levels combined.

[Eclipse]

I understand and agree with what Eclipse is saying. In my current squadron, drill (much less NCC) has low priority. I have many C/SNCOs that are barely competent at basic D&C. It just hasn't been a priority for the senior leadership, who believe that those interested in D&C can participate in JROTC. For a while, there's also been a lax attitude with regards to C&C and uniform wear. Only in the last year has that changed a bit, in part because of my insistence that we adhere to standards. I suspect my squadron is not the only one like that.

The fix for the vast majority of our problems is so simple, and yet seemingly out of reach.

[lordmonar]

One of the major problems is that most squadrons are not large enough to field a team in the first place, that fielding a competitive team is costly in time and money.....and lack of support from wing and region in terms of money and support.

[Eclipse]

One of the major problems is that most squadrons are not large enough to field a team in the first place, that fielding a competitive team is costly in time and money.....and lack of support from wing and region in terms of money and support.

That's the "more people" part of the very simple fix.

As to the cost, easily mitigated if we dropped everything back to the skills and forgot about the custom flags, tailored uniforms, and various
other non-core expenses that take what should be a fun event and turn it into a money drain for all involved.

How about a few years where the entire competition is done in PT gear or BDUs?  Concentrate on the drill movements, flag posting and the other important
and fun stuff.

And perhaps prohibit teams from hiring, yes hiring professional coaches, etc.

[SKI304]

Having done various levels of the NCC program for a few years now, I don't believe I've encountered teams actually hiring professional coaches.  If that's the case, then yeah, it kind of defeats the purpose of this whole thing being a leadership exercise that complements the Cadet Program.

A few years ago I was on the NCC working group and we were studying some great ways to make the various echelons of competition more accessible and supporting of the "Tuesday Night."  There was certainly a lot of healthy debate but we were able to come up with some solid recommendations.  I don't believe the results of that group were publicly released so I don't want to get into specifics if we're not allowed to.  Lt Col Lee was our NEC member overseeing it so if it's okay with him maybe I can.  However, I still believe Innovative Drill in it's current state is the biggest challenge and detractor from the competition.  It takes the most time to practice and really doesn't reflect the core fundamentals of the program like the other events do.  The cadets mostly like it though, so live and let live I suppose.

Another idea I've been kicking around in my head lately would be to cut NCC back to an every other year type of event.  That would automatically cut the NCC budget in half while freeing up time and resources to pursue other areas of CAP without burning out our "best and brightest" members. 

As to the original poster, just keep working and good luck!  First year teams have won NCC while multi-year veterans have fallen flat on their faces.  It's anybody's game.  We'll see you there!  :clap:

[lordmonar]

One of the major problems is that most squadrons are not large enough to field a team in the first place, that fielding a competitive team is costly in time and money.....and lack of support from wing and region in terms of money and support.

That's the "more people" part of the very simple fix.

As to the cost, easily mitigated if we dropped everything back to the skills and forgot about the custom flags, tailored uniforms, and various
other non-core expenses that take what should be a fun event and turn it into a money drain for all involved.

How about a few years where the entire competition is done in PT gear or BDUs?  Concentrate on the drill movements, flag posting and the other important
and fun stuff.

And perhaps prohibit teams from hiring, yes hiring professional coaches, etc.

Yes....but isn't that putting the cart before the horse?
NCC should be there to make squadrons go beyond the minimums and enhance the CP.....but because of the time and effort to send a team.....we end up detracting from the program more times then not.

To make NCC a really useful too.....we all have to work harder to make it work....that's seems backwards to me.

[BillB]

If NCC was turned into an every other year like SKI304 suggests you would eliminate about 50% of the ELIGIBLE cadets in one area. In two years a cadet would earn the Mitchell and be ineligible to be on a team for NCC at least for color guard competition which does not allow cadet officers.  Cadet officers can be on drill teams but not color guards. If you allowed cadet offcers on color guards for competition, they would replace cadet NCOs and you open another ball of wax.

[Eclipse]

One of the major problems is that most squadrons are not large enough to field a team in the first place, that fielding a competitive team is costly in time and money.....and lack of support from wing and region in terms of money and support.

That's the "more people" part of the very simple fix.

As to the cost, easily mitigated if we dropped everything back to the skills and forgot about the custom flags, tailored uniforms, and various
other non-core expenses that take what should be a fun event and turn it into a money drain for all involved.

How about a few years where the entire competition is done in PT gear or BDUs?  Concentrate on the drill movements, flag posting and the other important
and fun stuff.

And perhaps prohibit teams from hiring, yes hiring professional coaches, etc.

Yes....but isn't that putting the cart before the horse?
NCC should be there to make squadrons go beyond the minimums and enhance the CP.....but because of the time and effort to send a team.....we end up detracting from the program more times then not.

To make NCC a really useful too.....we all have to work harder to make it work....that's seems backwards to me.

You can't "go beyond" a minimum you never achieve.

We were discussing this specifically the other night, my suggestion was a wing-level, or even national mandate that every unit with cadets will have a color guard team,
and that every cadet would be required to participate at "x" level to make "x" achievement.

Being able to reasonably post colors and pay tribute to the flag, etc., is a skill every unit needs and one of those core assumptions you make about
CAP until you start visiting units.  Instead we have units all over the country that literally don't even own flags, some rarely if ever post colors for meetings,
and the term "formation" is foreign.

Lose the drill teams and take that money and put it back into the regional / wing HGA's, and get back to basics.

[a2capt]

If a Color Guard team member is allowed to participate at the National level as a Cadet Officer, as long as they started as an NCO at the lowest feeder competition in their stream, that brought them to that level of competition in the same season.

If it moved to every other year, then that would probably have to be allowed or the teams that make it there would have to hold back their cadets.

[Майор Хаткевич]

No one has to make Mitchell in 18 months...

[a2capt]

No, but not everyone starts Color Guard at a stripe or two, either.

[Майор Хаткевич]

CAP, like life is all about choices. I never got to do Line staff at an encampment. That was a choice I regret, but that's life. Never got to do Color Guard comp. Either, and I took 3 years to get my Mitchell.