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2008 Summer Board Video

Started by LtCol White, August 06, 2008, 12:29:02 PM

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RiverAux

You snooze, you lose in reporting the news.

Cecil DP

Quote from: IceNine on August 09, 2008, 12:05:47 AM
Not only must CC/CV be affirmed, but the CV can now keep their star after their tenure (requires NEC approval)

In my opinion the retention of grade should require the approval of the National Board, not the NEC.
Reason 1. The NEC is a subcommittee of the National Board-not the other way around.
              2. It requires the National Board to elect the CC and CV, they should be the ones to make it permenant.
Michael P. McEleney
LtCol CAP
MSG  USA Retired
GRW#436 Feb 85

JC004

Quote from: RiverAux on August 08, 2008, 11:10:49 PM
Actually it never changed to "Officer" in any official way in the first place. 

Did anyone actually read this memo?  I hear people fight about it all the time.  People complain to me because I say "senior member."  People even PM me here when I say SM in a post.  Gimme a break. 

The change was proposed to the NB some time ago.  It was shot down.  TP put out a memo saying that we'd use it for external communications - to make it easier to understand what a "senior member" is, like in a news article.  That was the whole point - at least on paper.  FW could maybe shed some light on the original proposal that was shot down.  I don't remember all the details.

Eclipse

The original verbiage from HWSRN was that using the term was a "suggestion", it never went further than that officially.

"That Others May Zoom"

JC004

Quote from: Eclipse on August 09, 2008, 02:57:01 AM
The original verbiage from HWSRN was that using the term was a "suggestion", it never went further than that officially.

Thaaaaaank you.  That means that you people who have nothing better to do than send me PMs when I say SM...can stop.   :P

Eclipse

#85
Original info is on CAPBlog, memo dated 24 AUG 2006

Quote from: HWSRN Memo Dated 24 AUG 2006, Source CAPBLOG http://capblog.typepad.com/capblog/2006/08/senior_members_.html
As we embark on our 65th anniversary celebrations across the country, more and more units will have an opportunity to provide presentations to civic organizations on the history and capabilities of this great organization. Many of you already have standard briefings that are used for this type of presentation, but I encourage you to be sure your briefings are up-to-date. As I travel around the country I find that individuals who are unfamiliar with Civil Air Patrol have trouble understanding our structure and membership categories. Specifically the term "Senior Member" often evokes the visible picture of aged or less than fully capable. This clearly is not reality nor is it the perception we want to portray. Therefore, I have asked my staff to recommend a new membership term to replace "senior member" for discussion at the November NEC. The new term will more accurately reflect the capabilities of our highly trained, technical CAP adult member. For now you are authorized and encouraged to use the term "officer" instead of "senior member" when making these external presentations.

                                                                                - HWSRN
                                                                                  Major General, CAP
                                                                                  National Commander

I stand semi-corrected on my recollection, the word used was recommend, not suggest, but clearly this was intended for outside presentations, not a full re-naming of the class of membership.

I don't think it was on the Nov NEC agenda as indicated, it was just one of those things he "did" and left in his wake.

"That Others May Zoom"

JC004

There it is!  I was looking for it. 

IceNine

Quote from: Cecil DP on August 09, 2008, 02:37:49 AM
Quote from: IceNine on August 09, 2008, 12:05:47 AM
Not only must CC/CV be affirmed, but the CV can now keep their star after their tenure (requires NEC approval)

In my opinion the retention of grade should require the approval of the National Board, not the NEC.
Reason 1. The NEC is a subcommittee of the National Board-not the other way around.
              2. It requires the National Board to elect the CC and CV, they should be the ones to make it permenant.

True, however the NEC is the only body that can appoint someone to the grade of Colonel when it is not associated with an appointment to NB, so why should the NB be the approving authority for the General Officer grades?
"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

tkelley004

Quote from: NC Hokie on August 08, 2008, 06:37:24 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on August 08, 2008, 06:22:55 PM
One of the NCO committee members said they want this promotion/advancement stuff get approved first because if it isn't, there wouldn't be much point in developing an actual NCO program.

I still don't know why we need an NCO program to begin with.  Why can't the prior service NCOs be satisfied with the stripes they earned...isn't that why they fought to get them on CAP uniforms in the first place?  Now they want to redo the entire PD program so that they can add more stripes.  Is this really something that will benefit CAP as a whole?

I'll say it again, CAP NCO's can promote any time they want after 6 months of membership to 2Lt! If you choose to wear stripes, your die is cast. Now I would like to see a program to allow CAP NCO's who have lots of time in CAP and have completed Level II or III or IV be able to get direct appointments to higher officer grade if they wish. You know MSgt vs 2Lt may have sounded good, but now that say an NCO has been in CAP awhile and completed Level 4, some might take Lt Col.....
Tim Kelley, Lt Col, CAP
Bellingham Composite Squadron
Retired USAF SMSgt

IceNine

With no disrespect intended, would you say the same thing if you don't get selected as a Chief?
"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

Capt Rivera

Quote from: IceNine on August 09, 2008, 06:36:05 AM
With no disrespect intended, would you say the same thing if you don't get selected as a Chief?

Why would it matter. He IS a CAP Lt Col.
//Signed//

Joshua Rivera, Capt, CAP
Squadron Commander
Grand Forks Composite Squadron
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
http://www.grandforkscap.org

IceNine

Because he is also speaking as an RM NCO, which is the group that will be impacted. 

The idea's on this will vary wildly among RM and CAP folks, I am just interested to see what the opinion is for those who stand to gain v.s not.

If he makes Chief, he would gain nothing from this being passed, if he doesn't there is a very different set of circumstances.

I would bet that an RM E-3 coming in would be in favor, whereas an AD E-9 would probably either not care, or be opposed.
"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

Capt Rivera

Quote from: IceNine on August 09, 2008, 07:09:58 AM
Because he is also speaking as an RM NCO, which is the group that will be impacted. 

The idea's on this will vary wildly among RM and CAP folks, I am just interested to see what the opinion is for those who stand to gain v.s not.

If he makes Chief, he would gain nothing from this being passed, if he doesn't there is a very different set of circumstances.

I would bet that an RM E-3 coming in would be in favor, whereas an AD E-9 would probably either not care, or be opposed.


ummm ok... I am a RM E-4. I think it is a very bad idea....
I have a brand new E-6 in my Squad and he has chosen the officer route... I have two E-2s (I believe) who are filling out their applications and they also chose the officer route. I don't believe they would change their mind if the regs were changed for enlisted promotion.

I noticed things seem to change back in forth between talking about NCOs and enlisted personnel. Just in case anyone is confused... in the AF,, you are NOT a NCO until you attain the rank of Staff Sgt (SSgt, E-5)
//Signed//

Joshua Rivera, Capt, CAP
Squadron Commander
Grand Forks Composite Squadron
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
http://www.grandforkscap.org

IceNine

If the NCO program there was an NCO Program, chances are there will be radically different views on this whole subject.

You, don't like it.  The CMSgt who is working this whole thing obviously does, and so on. 

I am interested in seeing what the opinions of the people who this does/will/has the potential to affect feel about the whole thing.  I don't ever see myself wearing stripes, so I don't really care
"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

SarDragon

Quote from: RiveraJ on August 09, 2008, 07:59:12 AM
I noticed things seem to change back in forth between talking about NCOs and enlisted personnel. Just in case anyone is confused... in the AF,, you are NOT a NCO until you attain the rank of Staff Sgt (SSgt, E-5)

We pretty well know that. Currently, ONLY NCOs are permitted to wear enlisted rank in CAP, and E-4s in services other than the AF are considered NCOs. I could wear TSgt rank if I desired, but I see little benefit to either myself or CAP from doing so.

I still haven't figured out what function(s) NCOs will serve in an expanded program.

YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Capt Rivera

Quote from: IceNine on August 09, 2008, 08:05:16 AM
If the NCO program there was an NCO Program, chances are there will be radically different views on this whole subject.

You, don't like it.  The CMSgt who is working this whole thing obviously does, and so on. 

I am interested in seeing what the opinions of the people who this does/will/has the potential to affect feel about the whole thing.  I don't ever see myself wearing stripes, so I don't really care

oh but it could affect me... i could decide to switch to the enlisted structure... if its there... i don't see a reason i couldn't convert ... hmmm maybe i would convert... try it out for a year and convert back.... (OKAY so I wont do it but you know someone will....)

QuoteWe pretty well know that. Currently, ONLY NCOs are permitted to wear enlisted rank in CAP, and E-4s in services other than the AF are considered NCOs. I could wear TSgt rank if I desired, but I see little benefit to either myself or CAP from doing so.

I still haven't figured out what function(s) NCOs will serve in an expanded program.
Yes that is why I specifically said AF....
I can't figure out a function for NCOs either... I also can't see a need for debate without thought out reasons for considering it....

so my feeling is that this is a bad idea and yes I am qualified to give that feeling as I am someone who could go the NCO route. But rather then me trying to explain why this is bad, I would like someone to inform me of how it alone can be good.

by alone i mean, don't tell me about officers needing college etc....
//Signed//

Joshua Rivera, Capt, CAP
Squadron Commander
Grand Forks Composite Squadron
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
http://www.grandforkscap.org

tkelley004

Quote from: IceNine on August 09, 2008, 06:36:05 AM
With no disrespect intended, would you say the same thing if you don't get selected as a Chief?
Yes I would! That is my point in fact, Who is pushing this? Folks who "neverwere" but want to become Chiefs.  Take your "promotion" to 2Lt work hard in CAP and become a Lt Col... Now if everyone came it CAP as an Airman and our standards for 2Lt were higher I would sign a different tune where CAP NCO's led airman and SNCO's mentored CGO's... but that isn't our program... and do you really think once we had NCO's that would change? <rant off> :P

But, if the stripes are not the Air Force ones, I can be OK with it, but really what is the point? I still don't see the "purpose" of the entire thing....
Tim Kelley, Lt Col, CAP
Bellingham Composite Squadron
Retired USAF SMSgt

CAPSGT

wow.  they really need to turn down the music and turn up the announcer's microphone.  I can't hear him and the music is starting to get annoying.
MICHAEL A. CROCKETT, Lt Col, CAP
Assistant Communications Officer, Wicomico Composite Squadron

RiverAux

Given the comments of CAP-USAF at the meeting about the NCO proposal, I'm pretty sure that we're going to have to really justify having a distinct NCO program before they'll approve the promotion structure and stripes.  The NCO working group obviously has put the cart before the horse and they got called on it by CAP-USAF. 


Ned

Quote from: CAPSGT on August 09, 2008, 12:39:52 PM
wow.  they really need to turn down the music and turn up the announcer's microphone.  I can't hear him and the music is starting to get annoying.

I thought the announcer was outstanding!

  ;D