Weigth standards, disabilities, and discrimination

[capchiro]

While lying awake in the middle of an unusually warm Georgia night and listening to my household six snoring like a freight train, I began to think strange and wondrous things.  I considered posting this to the uniform area, but it is really more about USAF/CAP reg's than uniforms.  Anyhow, with all of the emphasis recently on uniforms, uniformity, and looking like a team, I suddenly realized that the whole thing would be easier if we didn't have the weight standards to deal with.  After all, the cadets don't have to meet weight standards to wear Air Force style uniforms, so why should we?  Having been affiliated with the Georgia State Defense Force in the past, I don't recall any weight standards imposed there.  I remember seeing many a headquarter staff that had beer bellies, and I am not talking pony kegs either.  Anyhow, the defense force wears full Army uniforms, including the ACL (I think that is the abbreviation for the new digital BDU's) and the Class B's and Class A's.  For some reason, this doesn't detract from the real Army or National Guard or Army Reserves.  I believe that the Defense Force was issuing these uniforms when I was involved.  The only difference in the Defense Force uniform and the real Army is the name tag that says "Georgia State Defense Force".  Second point of interest is what I consider the USAF (if they actually have final say on our uniforms) discrimination against overweight members.  If a disabled member is in a wheelchair, uses a cane, carries an oxygen bottle, or is blind, and meets the weight standards, they are allowed to wear the Air Force style uniform.  As a matter of fact, one of the best communication officers I ever worked with was blind and also worked as a communications specialist with the civil defense department in Palm Beach, Florida.  Now, why is it that only overweight senior members are being discriminated against??  In recent years, it has become fairly common knowledge that obesity is considered a disability and is treated as such.  Some members can become weight compliant by dieting or exercising or both.  Some can not due to age, genetic make up and/or possible past injuries with resulting arthritic conditions.  Usually the only time a corporation can get away with discriminatory actions is if the relief would work an undue hardship (and I am talking about almost impossible) on the corporation to comply with.  Such is not the case regarding weight standards and the wear of Air Force style uniforms.  All CAP uniforms have identifying name tags on them somewhere.  I guess from afar a fat CAP Officer might be mistaken for an Air Force Officer, however, couldn't the same be true for our weight compliant CAP Officer in a wheelchair??  Since the Army, Army Reserves, and Army National Guard don't seem to lose any or much sleep over the State Defense Force wearing their uniforms, what justifies the Air Force utilizing such discriminatory practices??  I offer to you all that the time may be ripe for a discrimination suit to be filed to bring relief to members that are not within weight standards.  I have not included the grooming standards as that is usually a decision made by a member and not based on a disability.  Although I do know that in my day, certain ethnic military members were allowed to be unshaven (although neatly trimmed) as they were liable to have ingrown hair after shaving (So in other words in the real military there were exceptions to even the grooming standards).  So my point is if CAP does not have fitness standards/requirements to join and engage in the work of CAP, and if a member is overweight and can't wear the Air Force style uniform and if that makes him feel uncomfortable or embarrassed, I think we have a harassment issue.  What do you all think about this??           

[Pylon]

It is my understanding that the AF has indicated that the weight/height and grooming standards are not going anywhere.  It is not a decision or choice of CAP's.

It is not discrimination.  We have uniforms that everybody can wear.  Dress uniforms, field uniforms, flight uniforms, even a casual one.  Furthermore, it doesn't even fit the legal scope of discrimination.  A lawsuit as you are suggesting would merely waste Civil Air Patrol, Inc's limited resources.... if any court actually would hear it.

CAP is not a state defense force. This has been discussed to death elsewhere in the board.  SDFs have a special "status" under state and federal laws, and are provided for right in our Constitution.  Their officers hold actual state commissions, they have requirements for who can be an officer, and they have an enlisted and officer structure.  Hence, their uniform similarities reflect their status.  If you want that, join the SDF.  CAP is different, for different reasons and we accomplish different objectives.

Frankly, I can accomplish my job as DCC at my squadron in a white shirt just as easily as I can in a blue.  I meet the AF-imposed height/weight standards but I own both AF-style and corporate uniforms, and wear both from time to time.

The reason for the AF's requirements to wear AF-style uniforms have nothing to do with us being mistaken for AF officers.  The 3-line nameplate, CAP on the shoulder marks, and distinctive insignia are how we are distinguished.  The height/weight and grooming standards address other things, including the image the military expects of those who wear their uniforms.

Oh, and by the way, you're wrong about the cadets.  Cadets over 18 (aka: those old enough to be in the Armed Forces) do have to meet the height-weight requirements to wear AF-style uniforms otherwise they have to wear corporates.  And all cadets must meet the grooming standards.

But as I stated early in my post -- the requirements aren't changing anytime soon and Civil Air Patrol doesn't decide that.

[LittleIronPilot]

Ya know...this is going to be my standard answer to the uniform/standards question:

"This is the way it is, love it or leave it, but quit [censored]in' about it".

[pixelwonk]

we've got to get more creative with the curse filter. seriously.

Capchiro presents, apart from a very long paragraph, a pretty valid argument.  I don't particularly agree, but hey...
If you want to go to court over this though, sir, remember sometimes even when you win, you lose.

[Eclipse]

You can argue semantics all you want, being overweight is not a physical disability for the vast majority of the people with the issue.  If you're going to argue that everyone with an extra 20 has a thyroid or similar issue, well, good luck with that.

CAP is an >inclusive< organization (some would argue too much so), anyone who is physically capable of participating, can.  Some of the activities preclude participation because of the realities of physics, but not specifically because of weight or which uniform you're wearing.

Assuming your case had merit, which it doesn't, you would would have to show that overweight members are denied specific benefits simply because of which uniform they are "forced" to wear, and since a large number of members wear distinctive combos "just because", you have no argument to make.

[ColonelJack]

The scary part is ... if such a suit is filed, and CAP wins ... what's to stop AF from just denying its uniform to CAP in any form?

That would be an outcome that would merit winning the suit, as would an injunction allowing AF uniforms to everyone.

As the Chinese say ... "Be careful what you wish for.  You just might get it."

Jack

[pixelwonk]

The scary part is ... if such a suit is filed, and CAP wins ... what's to stop AF from just denying its uniform to CAP in any form?

That would be an outcome that would merit winning the suit, as would an injunction allowing AF uniforms to everyone.
As the Chinese say ... "Be careful what you wish for.  You just might get it."

bizactly.

As I said before, the argument is valid, for argument's sake but that doesn't make it right due to this little detail:

Joining CAP and choosing to renew each year means you accept and agree to meet certain published expectations.

* tedda is hypothyroid.  Yes, really.  Doesn't work. Not one bit.

Yeah, so that's caught up to me now that I'm in my thirties. The synthetic thyroid stuff doesn't keep the weight off like it used to.
Wearing CAP distinctive uniforms are not a punishment for me. They too, are an expectation. 

[RiverAux]

My standard answer to this argument is that the CG Aux has no height-weight standards and they have a closer relationship with their parent service and many Auxies work side by side with Coasties on a regular basis without having to meet any generic standards. 

However, when the Coasties themselves have to meet specific physical standards for a particular duty, then Auxies have to meet those same standards (example -- Auxies working on CG small boats).  So, while some Coasties probably don't like seeing some fat Auxies they tend to think it more important that the fattie is taking over a radiowatch for them so that the Coastie can go spend time with his family. 

So, if anything these standards apparently help drive an additional wedge between CAP and the AF. 

[mikeylikey]

Since the Army, Army Reserves, and Army National Guard don't seem to lose any or much sleep over the State Defense Force wearing their uniforms, what justifies the Air Force utilizing such discriminatory practices?? 

Actually Federal Law allows those groups to wear military uniforms as long as they have a distinguishing mark on them to preclude someone from mistaking them for members of a military service.  The Army has said, "No Army buttons, branch tapes, and you must wear a red nameplate with the dress uniform".  The other services have done similar.

CAP was never included in those particular laws, or decrees by the DoD.  Not sure why.

Thus the AF decided to make sure CAP (most likely as punishment for something) would never be mistaken for the AF.  They went further than what is normally done for CAP like organizations, but all within their power.

I agree it is a wasteful shame, all CAP members should be allowed to wear the AF style. 

[Stonewall]

I agree it is a wasteful shame, all CAP members should be allowed to wear the AF style. 

I agree, 100%.  I love that old video SARKID posted in the ES forum where the Captain is in BDUs, sportin' command pilot wings and has a full beard.

[flyguy06]

CAP is not a state defense force. This has been discussed to death elsewhere in the board.  SDFs have a special "status" under state and federal laws, and are provided for right in our Constitution.  Their officers hold actual state commissions, they have requirements for who can be an officer, and they have an enlisted and officer structure.  Hence, their uniform similarities reflect their status.  If you want that, join the SDF.  CAP is different, for different reasons and we accomplish different objectives.

Frankly, I can accomplish my job as DCC at my squadron in a white shirt just as easily as I can in a blue.  I meet the AF-imposed height/weight standards but I own both AF-style and corporate uniforms, and wear both from time to time

.

Actually, me personally, I disagree withthis. As a DCC, I always wear the uniform the cadets wear. I am a very involved Senior Member and too me it sets a bad precendence to tel a cadet his uniform is messed up and I dont even wear it. Thats like my commander telling me my job is wrong and he doesnt even know how to do it himself. I wouldl laugh at that guy.

Oh, and by the way, you're wrong about the cadets.  Cadets over 18 (aka: those old enough to be in the Armed Forces) do have to meet the height-weight requirements to wear AF-style uniforms otherwise they have to wear corporates.  And all cadets must meet the grooming standards.

But as I stated early in my post -- the requirements aren't changing anytime soon and Civil Air Patrol doesn't decide that.

Most cadets in CAP are NOT over 18 so I think he was talking about the norm and not the execptionto the rule.

[Nathan]

Does Ned cruise these boards? This is a Ned-worthy question.

Maybe I'm just not understanding the issue here. CAP, as an entity, is entitled to create it's own uniforms, just as if I wanted to create the "Nathan fan club", I could design and distribute my own uniforms so long as I follow the federal rules that say it can't be too much like an existing military uniform.

So what CAP did was create a uniform exclusive to CAP, which consists of the blue polo shirts, the sweaters, and recently the white aviator shirts and gray slacks.

Now, the AF, as a PRIVILEDGE (not a right), have granted CAP members falling under certain criteria the right to wear the USAF uniform with some modifications done to it to ensure we are still wearing CAP uniforms. The AF has every right to set the criteria for our wear, and it is CAP's choice (somewhat, if we want to keep funding from them) to accept the uniform. The criteria include being under the age of 18 (which makes sense, since almost all other CP's that include military uniform wear have cadet cut-off at 18), and SM's that fall within the uniform guidelines dictated by the AF. The USAF said we had to follow their rules, but technically, if they wanted to, they could easily have said that everyone wearing the uniform had to have their hair dyed blue, painted themselves in purple polkadots, and have been an active member of the Girl Scouts in the past. If we want to wear their uniform, they set the rules.

Maybe this could be brought to court, but I think if that were to happen, and IF the USAF was somehow FORCED into allowing all members to wear the uniform they dictate for us, and somehow IF they, for some reason, allowed us to keep wearing the uniform they dictate to us, I have a feeling that they would make much more dramatic modifications to it than maroon epaulets...

[Stonewall]

Actually, you can be 17 and serve in the military, but that's pushing the topic drift issue.

I've seen cadets with all sorts of disabilities in CAP.  Blind, deaf, wheelchair bound and so on.  I think every cadet and ever senior member should be able to wear the AF uniform, as long as you can find one to fit.  You know, these days, military members missing limbs remain on active duty.  And why not?  You may not be able to carry a ruck 21 miles, but you sure as hell can teach someone how to shoot, disarm a bomb, use a map, pay people, perform surgery, or whatever.  It's awesome.  We even have a pilot who lost a leg still flying.  If the military can do all that, a bunch of non-paid volunteers should be able to wear CAP BDUs if they weigh in at 300 lbs, have a beard (my favorite bearded friend is SAR Dragon BTW), or be 99 years of age.

How awesome would that be?  3 uniforms for all.  Green nomex flightsuits, BDUs and Blues.  WOW!  What a concept!

My dad is paralyzed on the right side, can't speak worth a crap, has a lopsided head from a traumatic brain injury, but meets grooming and weight standards.  Plus, he's a retired Commander.  If that man can wear a uniform, everyone should be able to.

[RAZOR]

The reason CAP cannot wear the AF Style uniform exactly like thoe who are serving is because of LOAC. Law of Armed Conflict. If you were wearing a military uniform without those distinctive markings you would be mistaken as a combatant. You would blend in so neatly with the regulars we could not tell you apart. There are those as stated here that do meet the weight standards who do and can wear the AF style uniform and without those distinctive markings would fit right in. The last thing the services need is to find out there are civilians where they should not be. Among other things I believe there is a public/federal law that prohibits the wear of any style military uniform unless it it distinctively different than that of the real thing.

[masamuel2]

I don't believe that it is a LOAC issue because medical and religous personnel in the military wear the same uniform and they are not combatants.  Also CAP members aren't usually in situations where LOAC would apply.

The Air Force does not have weight requirement anymore.  It was replaced with the physical fitness test.  Airmen can be as round as they want as long as they can do the 1.5 mile run, pushups, and situps (and even then there are waivers).  So if you don't like the weight standards maybe there can be a fitness test for senior members!

[star1151]

Among other things I believe there is a public/federal law that prohibits the wear of any style military uniform unless it it distinctively different than that of the real thing.

Someone mentioned once that included auxiliary uniforms, but I can't find the reference.  10 USC doesn't seem to mention it.

[aveighter]

I am shocked that a senior officer would present such an argument.  Is this what the nation has come to?  The militant obese actually taking the position that they are the normal ones and the rest of us are weird?

Will Cessna have to re-engine the 182s with turbines just to get a crew of two off the ground?  
Pratt & Whitney here we come!

Put the fork down, stop swilling the sugar and change the channel manually.  Wonders will occur.

And by the way, those SDF and USCG Aux fellows (and our own) with shirt tail busting guts and hair sticking out all over look gawdawful.  Yeah, yeah I know, there are exceptions to everything but they are rare.  For the most part if one can't present himself in a fashion and condition only marginally higher than the average overfed goober, well that probably what you get.

Our average age is what, 52?  The physical and metabolic changes that occur toward the half century mark are hard enough to keep a handle on but it can be done.  Effort and discipline are the key along with a little bit of a spine.  Those wounded vets that continue to serve with their disabilities do so out of an iron will and cast iron stones.  They do what needs to be done to get where they are.  If that is not a motivator nothing is.  If you are a fatbody then change and do it in their honor.  Then serve your nation in it's uniform with pride.

Stop crying about how overburdened and discriminated against and misunderstood you are.

Where are the men that didn't qualify for military service but who promptly jumped into single engine wood and fabric crates and flew out to sea far from land hungering for a chance to engage the enemy.  An armed enemy.

Now those were men!

Would they be proud of us now or would they shake their heads in dismay?

[RiverAux]

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 33 > § 702
§ 702. Uniform of armed forces and Public Health Service

Whoever, in any place within the jurisdiction of the United States or in the Canal Zone, without authority, wears the uniform or a distinctive part thereof or anything similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of any of the armed forces of the United States, Public Health Service or any auxiliary of such, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

[mikeylikey]

I am shocked that a senior officer would present such an argument.  Is this what the nation has come to?  The militant obese actually taking the position that they are the normal ones and the rest of us are weird?

Will Cessna have to re-engine the 182s with turbines just to get a crew of two off the ground?  
Pratt & Whitney here we come!

Put the fork down, stop swilling the sugar and change the channel manually.  Wonders will occur.

And by the way, those SDF and USCG Aux fellows (and our own) with shirt tail busting guts and hair sticking out all over look gawdawful.  Yeah, yeah I know, there are exceptions to everything but they are rare.  For the most part if one can't present himself in a fashion and condition only marginally higher than the average overfed goober, well that probably what you get.

Our average age is what, 52?  The physical and metabolic changes that occur toward the half century mark are hard enough to keep a handle on but it can be done.  Effort and discipline are the key along with a little bit of a spine.  Those wounded vets that continue to serve with their disabilities do so out of an iron will and cast iron stones.  They do what needs to be done to get where they are.  If that is not a motivator nothing is.  If you are a fatbody then change and do it in their honor.  Then serve your nation in it's uniform with pride.

Stop crying about how overburdened and discriminated against and misunderstood you are.

Where are the men that didn't qualify for military service but who promptly jumped into single engine wood and fabric crates and flew out to sea far from land hungering for a chance to engage the enemy.  An armed enemy.

Now those were men!

Would they be proud of us now or would they shake their heads in dismay?

Man......I don't want to run into you on a bad day!

Medical Science is discovering that obesity may be genetically passed on.  A recent report published on all the news services last month concluded that obesity may actually be a virus that is passed on during infancy.  So Mom is FAT......baby most likely will be infected and turn out fat.  2 months ago, a CDC sponsored report came out that said just being around FAT people increased a persons chances of being fat by 17%.

There are the theories that the FED GOV'T has Fattened the American Citizen up by way of education (food guide, pyramids etc.)  Don't forget what the largest single product produced by the US is, it is Grain.  When this country was a sole supplier of grain and dairy products to Africa, Europe and Asia pre-1950 there was no surplus.  When those countries started producing enough food to feed their citizens, guess what, we stopped exporting and had a HUGE surplus.  One way to get rid of the surplus is to say to the American people "Eat more bread, have 2 servings of cereal, these potato chips are good for you".

We as a society have gotten fatter.  Pretty soon (next 5 to 10 year) the average person will weigh more than the currently recommended weight standards for height, age and sex. 

To say "put the fork down" may have been correct in the past, but I have seen people on low calorie diets, who exercises everday still carry around extra weight.  AND GUESS WHAT, they probably have a better heart rate, blood pressure and overall health than you.  Doctors are agreeing that you can be "fat" and still be healthy.

I take offense to your post.  You have lumped those of us who do not meet AF guidelines to wear an AF style uniform because we carry more muscle around with those that carry more fat around.  Granted I may be in the "isolated case" group.  I work out 5 days a week, I do aerobics and lift, and I have a low body fat percentage.  YET I am borderline to being allowed to wear AF style, YET if I were in the AF, I would have no problem.  I would MAX the AF PT Test, as my waistline is between  32.  I have allways been taped int eh Army for the same reason.  I carry more muscle than fat, but I always pass the tape. 

There are others out there too that are most likely in a similar predicament.  Because I enjoy working out, I am being punished.  Not fair.

What would those men think of me that flew those " wood and fabric crates"?  I think they would think "[darn], that guy can probably kill me with one arm".  Don't forget those guys back then were STICK PEOPLE.  It was normal to weigh 100 pounds and be 5'11" (exaggeration). 

HERE COMES the basis......I was a FAT kid.  I grew up FAT, I never exercised, I couldn't run a mile at school, BUT I wanted to be in the military.  SO, I went to college, and every spare moment I got, I was at the gym.  I ran 4 miles a day, lifted so much that I bought bengay by the box, and bulked up.  (Without drugs, or diet pills)  I maxed the Army Physical Fitness Test each month and eventually commissioned.  My first assignment I had the fastest 2 mile time in my Battalion.  I still do.  In Iraq in my spare time I could always be found running or lifting.  I am not a lazy person anymore.  HOWEVER, if I were to stop everything tomorrow I would be a FATTY again.  It is a constant struggle.  I know it is a struggle MANY people deal with everday.  It causes anxiety for some, depression for others. 

Now you, aveighter........I am so happy you never had to deal with being FAT.  You are one of the lucky ones.  You did not get ridiculed at school, hazed, bullied or beat-up.  You were probably the kid doing the name calling, throwing the food, picking the fat kid last at dodgeball.  I would be ashamed if I were you, for if not that, then for what you wrote.  We see that you have a hatred toward people over-weight.  You are the person that makes this nation suck sometimes. 

HUGE RANT OVER.  PM if you want to BASH.....we will take it privately.   

[Dad2-4]

Chocolate