Senior Pilot Wings Query

[Turk]

Lemme throw something out here - one of the guys in my unit is wondering if he qualifies for senior pilot wings. He's been a CAP member for ten years, he's IFR-rated,  Form 5-current, and he has 1000 hours. He's been an active member and active pilot throughout his membership; he flies well, too.

Trouble is, he was out of Form 5 status for most of his ten years in CAP - not from any lack of ability, but because he flew his own Mooney around.

We're not sure how to interpret the 35-6. He certainly satisfies the spirit and intent of the regulation, but I'm not sure if he satisfies the letter. Who would I ask (besides the CAPTalk body politic?)

[AlphaSigOU]

He qualifies. Quoth CAPR 35-6:

Senior Pilot Rating:

1) Meet CAP pilot rating requirements (qualified as per CAPR-60-1).
2) Have been an active CAP-rated pilot for at least 3 years (this service need not be continuous).
3) Have a minimum of 1,000 hours pilot time logged in accordance with Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs).

And for the 'toilet seat around the star' - ahem, command pilot wings:

Command Pilot Rating:

1) Meet CAP senior pilot requirements (qualified as per CAPR 60-1).
2) Have been an active CAP pilot or senior pilot for at least 5 years (this service need not be continuous).
3) Have a minimum of 2,000 hours pilot time logged in accordance with FARs.

As long as he's qualified and current per 60-1, he should be good to go.

Tags - MIKE

[arajca]

Ref item 2 - Have been an active CAP-rated pilot for at least 3 years (this service need not be continuous).

Has he been Form 5 qual'd for three years out of his ten? This would be the deal breaker - being an active CAP-rated pilot, i.e. qualified to fly CAP aircraft.

[RiverAux]

There was some talk at one of the recent national meetings about imposing a minimum number of CAP flight hours for some of the higher pilot ratings so that may come into play in the future if it was/will be approved.

[Turk]

Ref item 2 - Have been an active CAP-rated pilot for at least 3 years (this service need not be continuous).

Has he been Form 5 qual'd for three years out of his ten? This would be the deal breaker - being an active CAP-rated pilot, i.e. qualified to fly CAP aircraft.

He has one year, I think. Well, he'll just have to wait his turn, I guess.

[Pylon]

And being an active CAP pilot doesn't mean having your Form 5 done and never flying a single hour other than your checkride for CAP.  He'd should be active for those three years, by flying for Civil Air Patrol.

[Turk]

And being an active CAP pilot doesn't mean having your Form 5 done and never flying a single hour other than your checkride for CAP.  He'd should be active for those three years, by flying for Civil Air Patrol.

Yup, makes sense to me! 

[Eclipse]

And being an active CAP pilot doesn't mean having your Form 5 done and never flying a single hour other than your checkride for CAP.  He'd should be active for those three years, by flying for Civil Air Patrol.

Should be, yes.  Has to be, no.   

[DNall]

And being an active CAP pilot doesn't mean having your Form 5 done and never flying a single hour other than your checkride for CAP.  He'd should be active for those three years, by flying for Civil Air Patrol.

While I agree, that's a commander interpretation of what they want active to mean in order for them to sign off. The letter of the reg is fm5 = active pilot.

Trouble is, he was out of Form 5 status for most of his ten years in CAP - not from any lack of ability, but because he flew his own Mooney around.

He has one year now right? Was he never previously fm5 rated in his entire CAP career? If so does all that time together add to 3 years or not?

[Turk]

And being an active CAP pilot doesn't mean having your Form 5 done and never flying a single hour other than your checkride for CAP.  He'd should be active for those three years, by flying for Civil Air Patrol.

While I agree, that's a commander interpretation of what they want active to mean in order for them to sign off. The letter of the reg is fm5 = active pilot.

Trouble is, he was out of Form 5 status for most of his ten years in CAP - not from any lack of ability, but because he flew his own Mooney around.

He has one year now right? Was he never previously fm5 rated in his entire CAP career? If so does all that time together add to 3 years or not?

Nope, while he's been a productive member 'n all, he's been flying his Mooney (not on missions) all the while. He got one form 5 back in the Jurassic era, and he recently Form 5'd in a CAP aircraft. Sooooo, my interpretation (and I suppose, his commander's) is that he'll just have to do his time!

Tags - MIKE

[DNall]

So he has the hours & is working on year two then. Sounds like you can present that back to him in a very optimistic way. He just needs to complete this & next year. The more active he can be as a pilot for CAP in that time the easier it'll be to get that approved when the time comes, and of course we want to make use of his skill & experience to better the organization. He can be an active o-flt pilot if he's not interested in the operational side. Or can fly as an observer if he can't stay proficient in the cessnas & his own aircraft at the same time.

[Turk]

So he has the hours & is working on year two then. Sounds like you can present that back to him in a very optimistic way. He just needs to complete this & next year. The more active he can be as a pilot for CAP in that time the easier it'll be to get that approved when the time comes, and of course we want to make use of his skill & experience to better the organization. He can be an active o-flt pilot if he's not interested in the operational side. Or can fly as an observer if he can't stay proficient in the cessnas & his own aircraft at the same time.

He'll be fine.  He's a little tired of his Mooney dragging him to the bank anyway (it's up for sale), and he'll be delighted to fly the Cessnas...

[BlueLakes1]

There was some talk at one of the recent national meetings about imposing a minimum number of CAP flight hours for some of the higher pilot ratings so that may come into play in the future if it was/will be approved.

IIRC, the minimum CAP hours was an either/or proposal, to recognize highly active CAP pilots who had a minimum number of CAP hours prior to meeeting the 1000 hour or 2000 hour requirements for Senior or Command Pilot, respectively. The measure did not pass.

[SJFedor]

There was some talk at one of the recent national meetings about imposing a minimum number of CAP flight hours for some of the higher pilot ratings so that may come into play in the future if it was/will be approved.

IIRC, the minimum CAP hours was an either/or proposal, to recognize highly active CAP pilots who had a minimum number of CAP hours prior to meeeting the 1000 hour or 2000 hour requirements for Senior or Command Pilot, respectively. The measure did not pass.

That is correct. It was something like 1000 PIC or 500 CAP time for senior, and 2000 PIC/1000 CAP for command.

It got shot down. Kinda glad it did, woulda cheapened it for me.

[DNall]

That is correct. It was something like 1000 PIC or 500 CAP time for senior, and 2000 PIC/1000 CAP for command.

It got shot down. Kinda glad it did, woulda cheapened it for me.

Really? Cause that's a whole crap load of CAP flying versus unrelated no use whatever to the org civilian flight time. Granted, experience in general makes for a better pilot, but MP experience is significantly more important than raw hours.

[Trung Si Ma]

That is correct. It was something like 1000 PIC or 500 CAP time for senior, and 2000 PIC/1000 CAP for command.

It got shot down. Kinda glad it did, woulda cheapened it for me.

Really? Cause that's a whole crap load of CAP flying versus unrelated no use whatever to the org civilian flight time. Granted, experience in general makes for a better pilot, but MP experience is significantly more important than raw hours.

My 2 hours of MP trainee time is more important than my flight instructors 30,000+ hours?  There is "no use whatever" to the time that he is spending with my cadet commander to get him soloed on a CAP flight scholarship that we are heavily using for recruiting purposes?

I think you need to drink plenty of fluids and take a wizz quiz.

[SJFedor]

That is correct. It was something like 1000 PIC or 500 CAP time for senior, and 2000 PIC/1000 CAP for command.

It got shot down. Kinda glad it did, woulda cheapened it for me.

Really? Cause that's a whole crap load of CAP flying versus unrelated no use whatever to the org civilian flight time. Granted, experience in general makes for a better pilot, but MP experience is significantly more important than raw hours.

I understand what you mean Dennis, but to me, it felt like I wasn't rising to cross the bar, but they were lowering it to make it easier for me to get over. Just a personal thing. I wouldn't have put the star on until 1000 hours regardless, as I *would have* had the time for it now, had the measure passed.

[DNall]

My 2 hours of MP trainee time is more important than my flight instructors 30,000+ hours?  There is "no use whatever" to the time that he is spending with my cadet commander to get him soloed on a CAP flight scholarship that we are heavily using for recruiting purposes?

No, but 500hrs of CAP flight time is certainly more significant to CAP than 1000hrs of lifetime flight outside-CAP. And certainly more valuable for the very specific types of CAP flying. It could be any combination of CAP flying, not just MP.

I understand what you mean Dennis, but to me, it felt like I wasn't rising to cross the bar, but they were lowering it to make it easier for me to get over. Just a personal thing. I wouldn't have put the star on until 1000 hours regardless, as I *would have* had the time for it now, had the measure passed.

I respect that. My point is an hour flying for CAP training as an MP in the specific type of flight profiles we face is really more significant for what we do than 2 hrs of flying a completely different type of aircraft on a completely different profile. I mean should my rotary hours count 1-for-1 against your MP training hours in that measurement? You see what I'm saying? Obviously we don't need an insanely complicated formula. What they proposed sounds fine to me.

[a2capt]

Hmm.. okay, so, if I've had four Form 5's, and a Form 91, but am currently .. not current due to employment issues, but am going to break 1000 hours imminently.. I see it doesn't say PIC time, or does it somewhere else?

[FW]

There was some talk at one of the recent national meetings about imposing a minimum number of CAP flight hours for some of the higher pilot ratings so that may come into play in the future if it was/will be approved.

This proposal was soundly defeated.  From the discussions held, it seems it won't be back on the table for some time.