Seniors and military badges

[Cadet Snuffy]

I have a friend that served in the army, and he was wondering if he joined cap, could he wear his signal corps badge on his Blues uniform? I told him I'd try to find out, but I have never seen anything that says NO to it.

[abdsp51]

CAPM39-1 has your answers.  Though if itxs his branch insignia then no. 

[Capt Thompson]

If by signal corps badge you mean the brass disc he wears on his lapel, then no, these are for the Army uniform only. On blues he would wear the nickel US with the circle around it if he went as an NCO, and the US without the circle if he goes for Officer.

[LSThiker]

I have a friend that served in the army, and he was wondering if he joined cap, could he wear his signal corps badge on his Blues uniform? I told him I'd try to find out, but I have never seen anything that says NO to it.

The only "Signal Corps" badge are his branch insignia.  The discs are for enlisted while the officer is the insignia itself.  Those are not authorized on the USAF uniform. 

[jdh]

I have a friend that served in the army, and he was wondering if he joined cap, could he wear his signal corps badge on his Blues uniform? I told him I'd try to find out, but I have never seen anything that says NO to it.

The only "Signal Corps" badge are his branch insignia.  The discs are for enlisted while the officer is the insignia itself.  Those are not authorized on the USAF uniform.

He may also be talking about the regimental affiliation device that is worn on the right side over the name tag, but that is also a no-go on CAP uniforms. Signal is one of the few that everyone wears the regimental affiliation device for, most other branches you chose which regiment that you have belonged to and request affiliation.

[LSThiker]

I have a friend that served in the army, and he was wondering if he joined cap, could he wear his signal corps badge on his Blues uniform? I told him I'd try to find out, but I have never seen anything that says NO to it.

The only "Signal Corps" badge are his branch insignia.  The discs are for enlisted while the officer is the insignia itself.  Those are not authorized on the USAF uniform.

He may also be talking about the regimental affiliation device that is worn on the right side over the name tag, but that is also a no-go on CAP uniforms. Signal is one of the few that everyone wears the regimental affiliation device for, most other branches you chose which regiment that you have belonged to and request affiliation.

Forgot about the Regimental Crests.  As an AMEDD officer, I wear the AMEDD crest.  In fact, most wear their Corps Regimental Crests.  The "Combat Arms" are the ones without a Branch Regimental Crests (except Corps of Engineers).  The following are the Branch Regimental Crests:

AMEDD (which switched crests in 2014--it now has a rooster)
Acquisition Corps
AG Corps
Chaplain Corps
Chemical Corps
Civil Affairs Corps
Corps of Engineers
Finance Corps
JAG
Military Intelligence Corps
Military Police Corps
Ordnance Corps
Quartermaster Corps
Signal Corps
Logistics Corps

[Cadet Snuffy]

I have a friend that served in the army, and he was wondering if he joined cap, could he wear his signal corps badge on his Blues uniform? I told him I'd try to find out, but I have never seen anything that says NO to it.

The only "Signal Corps" badge are his branch insignia.  The discs are for enlisted while the officer is the insignia itself.  Those are not authorized on the USAF uniform.

He may also be talking about the regimental affiliation device that is worn on the right side over the name tag, but that is also a no-go on CAP uniforms. Signal is one of the few that everyone wears the regimental affiliation device for, most other branches you chose which regiment that you have belonged to and request affiliation.

That's what I'm referring to. The one that goes on the chest. Not collar.

[Flying Pig]

I think Im going to start wearing my Eagle Globe and Anchor somewhere on my blues.

[The Infamous Meerkat]

That's fantastic.  :clap:   Pictures please!

[NC Hokie]

I think Im going to start wearing my Eagle Globe and Anchor somewhere on my blues.

Just be sure to take it off when you rejoin CAP.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Is it any different than former C/Officers having their pips/diamonds sewn under their BDU collars/inside a pocket or something?

[AlphaSigOU]

Is it any different than former C/Officers having their pips/diamonds sewn under their BDU collars/inside a pocket or something?

Or pinned under the lapel of the service dress jacket!

[NC Hokie]

Is it any different than former C/Officers having their pips/diamonds sewn under their BDU collars/inside a pocket or something?

Or pinned under the lapel of the service dress jacket!

Or inside the folds of the flight cap, which my daughter and several other SUPTFC graduates did with the wings they were awarded at the end of the activity.

[goblin]

What kinda wings?

[NC Hokie]

What kinda wings?

USAF pilot wings.  Hers are somewhere on the board in the background of this picture.

[goblin]

Oh that makes sense..

[goblin]

Does that program also allow for embroidered name tags?

[Flying Pig]

C'mon.... all the 182 drivers are wearin em

[SARDOC]

I think Im going to start wearing my Eagle Globe and Anchor somewhere on my blues.

Wear it under a pocket.  Marines/Air force folks E7 and above that have gone through Navy/Coast Guard indoc have worn the Chief's Anchor under a pocket and they'll flash it coming into the Chief's Mess...the food is better. 

[ALH]

NecroThread, arise!

Please help me clarify a mental exercise in regulation interpolation, which came up the other day when trying to explain how CAP uniforms work for AD folk. I've asked the Knowledgebase without any response a few times, so let's open it up to the masses. It has to do with USAFWIC graduate patch.



CAPM-39.1 (26 June 2014) states "10.8.1. US Military badges may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with authorizations and instructions found in AFI 36-2903 when appropriate orders granted by competent military authority are present in the member's CAP personnel record."

Following that up, AFI 36-2903 (28 May 2015) states "5.1.2.2. Full size graduate patches will be worn and may only be worn on the pockets. Only permanently conferred graduate patches (i.e. Weapons Instructor Course Graduate Patch and USAF Test Pilot School Patch) may be worn." Later, 10.1.1 places WIC Graduate patches in the same category of "missile, missile ops, security forces, fire protection, et al insignia". Likewise, Attachment 5 categorizes the WIC graduate patch as part of the "Qualification Badges & graduate Patches" umbrella.

For our purposes, would the USAFWS WIC Graduate patch be considered a qualification badge and "(CAPM 39-1 10.8.1) be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with authorizations and instructions found in AFI 36-2903 when appropriate orders granted by competent military authority are present in the member's CAP personnel record."?

Or, for those who don't quite make it...



Thanks for any input!

[SarDragon]

My initial thought is no, since what you posted is a patch, and not a badge (sewing vs pins).

[goblin]

No.

"Qualification badges AND graduate patches"

Patch does not equal badge

Are you a patch?

[lordmonar]

Yes.

The AD military wear the AFWS patch on their BDUs on the left pocket......so we do too.

That's what 10.8.1. says.

[winterg]

No. Patch is not a badge.

[lordmonar]

No. Patch is not a badge.

YMMV 

[winterg]

No. Patch is not a badge.

YMMV 

Can you cite the regs that says the Fighter Weapon School patch would be authorized?

[lordmonar]

Already did.  10.8.1

[goblin]

10.8.1 does not really clarify.

If you think in terms of badges (Cops, Fire, Missiles, etc.), they all have an equivalent on the blues uniform.

The patch is unique in that it is just that, a patch.  Not a badge.

[kwe1009]

AFI 36-2903 calls it a "patch" and not a badge.  CAPM 39-1 10.8.1 applies to military badges.  Patches are covered under 10.7 and this patch isn't listed.

[Stonewall]

The security forces badge (police shield) is only worn while serving in that role, with one exception, recruiter duty (not sure why).  Just like the beret, it would NOT be worn unless performing a job function within the security forces career field.

You WOULDN'T wear the blue security forces beret in a CAP uniform, nor would you wear the police style badge.

It would be like wearing a maroon beret in CAP because you spent time in the 82nd Airborne Division. 

[Nuke52]

Does that program also allow for embroidered name tags?

Yup, looks like it.

[Nuke52]

Is it any different than former C/Officers having their pips/diamonds sewn under their BDU collars/inside a pocket or something?

If I understand the OP's question correctly, it is different.  I think the OP was asking about wearing the insignia overtly as an authorized "U.S. military badge," which in this case would not be allowed. 

What you are talking about is hiding an insignia meaningful/motivational to the wearer somewhere where it cannot be seen--which I think most people wouldn't have a problem with.  Some members here, on the other hand, might chafe at the lack of "that whole integrity thing," right abdsp51?

[Nuke52]

C'mon.... all the 182 drivers are wearin em

Maybe it's my eyes, or maybe it's the angle of the pic, but those don't look like 182 drivers' wings to me...

[Nuke52]

No. Patch is not a badge.

YMMV 

I'm having a hard time seeing how anyone's mileage could vary in saying that a patch and a badge are the same thing, or even are equivalent.  Please explain.

In an Air Force context, a patch is an insignia that gets sewn (or velcroed) onto a utility uniform.  Although many (but not all) badges also come in a cloth manifestation, they ALL come in a hard, metal/metal-looking plastic form that is pinned to a uniform.  The USAFWS _patch_ does not come in this form, is not worn on any AF uniform other than utilities (i.e., NOT the blue shirt or service/mess dress jackets), and, thus, does not meet the common definition for "badge." 

If anyone has pics of someone properly/"authorized-ly" wearing a metal/enamal WIC patch on their blues, please post, and I will gladly eat my words.

[Nuke52]

The security forces badge (police shield) is only worn while serving in that role, with one exception, recruiter duty (not sure why).

Just my opinion, but wearing it during recruiter duty is for "curb appeal" / bling value.  That big ole, bright & shiny, mamma-jammin' SF duty badge?  Come on, it's impressive and looks cool.  Why wouldn't the AF want the recruiters who've earned them wearing that beautiful hunk of attention-grabbing gold (er, silver)?

Just like the beret, it would NOT be worn unless performing a job function within the security forces career field.

You WOULDN'T wear the blue security forces beret in a CAP uniform, nor would you wear the police style badge.

It would be like wearing a maroon beret in CAP because you spent time in the 82nd Airborne Division.

I see where you're going with this, but I don't know that I can agree completely...  The maroon beret isn't analogous:  for one, an army-configured beret is not authorized in a USAF uniform, and b) unless it's changed since the last time I looked for that part, CAPM 39-1 doesn't say you can wear any old thing from some old unit you used to be with:  it authorizes certain devices issued for permanent award and it further authorizes some items that are authorized by AFI 36-2903 for wear on the AF uniform though only while the member is authorized to wear it in the AF. 

For example, not too many years back, if a USAF TACP airman was currently assigned to an Army-aligned TACP squadron and a member of CAP, he could wear his aligned Army unit's division patch and combat patch, if so awarded, on the shoulders of his CAP BDUs. 

Because it was a while ago, I'm not certain in my memory of this next point, but I think I remember... that invoking these same rules, said airman could also blouse his CAP blues trousers over his boots and, by extension of that principle, also wear his TACP beret, although that seems a bit sketchier.  If that were truly the case, I don't see why a current SF airman couldn't wear his beret and duty badge.

[goblin]

C'mon.... all the 182 drivers are wearin em

Maybe it's my eyes, or maybe it's the angle of the pic, but those don't look like 182 drivers' wings to me...

It's your eyes.

[Nuke52]

C'mon.... all the 182 drivers are wearin em

Maybe it's my eyes, or maybe it's the angle of the pic, but those don't look like 182 drivers' wings to me...

It's your eyes.

I'll take your word for it, but at this angle, the shape of those look more like USAF senior pilot wings than CAP wings to me, and, at least in the past, the guys who'd be handing out the wings at AETCFC/SUPTFC were/had been USAF pilots...

[winterg]

Already did.  10.8.1

10.8.1. US Military badges may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with authorizations
and instructions found in AFI 36-2903 when appropriate orders granted by competent military authority
are present in the member's CAP personnel record.

A patch is not a badge.

[lordmonar]

Like I said YMMV.   
In the USAF the weapons school patch is a big deal.   IMHO if a SM wants to wear his/her patch on their BDUs or flight suit....I'm gonna let him/her do so.   I think it is within the spirit of the 39-1 in the language is not 100% correct. 

At the end of the day it is just not worth getting all regs police over this issue.   

[winterg]

Like I said YMMV.   
In the USAF the weapons school patch is a big deal.   IMHO if a SM wants to wear his/her patch on their BDUs or flight suit....I'm gonna let him/her do so.   I think it is within the spirit of the 39-1 in the language is not 100% correct. 
At the end of the day it is just not worth getting all regs police over this issue.

I am sorry, but that would be a violation of 39-1, in spirit and the letter.  We can't just make up the rules because we think a member should be able to wear a cool patch.  I was on the AFFTC Shuttle Recovery Team and worked on several space shuttle landings at Edwards AFB.  The patch we wore was a pretty big deal.  Can I wear that on my CAP uniform?  No.  Because the regulations do not allow it.

[lordmonar]

Apples and oranges.   One off the team you can't wear your shuttle recovery team patch.  The air warfare school patch is a permanent award.   

And I read 39-1 differently than you.   No harm no foul.   Like I said YMMV.   

[Flying Pig]

I'm going to start wearing my USMC eagle globe and anchor on my left chest pocket. 

[lordmonar]

I'm going to start wearing my USMC eagle globe and anchor on my left chest pocket.

If we were the USMC Auxiliary I would say go for it!   

The AF Weapons School Graduate Patch is an authorized patch on USAF ABUs!    ABUs!   The USAF takes this patch very seriously.
So.....in the spirit of 39-1.

A) It ain't gonna piss off the USAF if we allow former/current "Patch Wearers" to continue wearing it.
B) We ain't gonna piss off any "Patch Wearers" by taking away their bright and shinny away from them.
C) It is in line with 39-1 in allowing non-CAP awards/badges/danglies....because we default "What does the AFI say?" and the AFI says they can wear it.

We can split hairs all day over "patch" vs "Badge".....and that's good.

Bottom line.....as in all things......if 39-1 does not give you a clear answer, ask your chain of command....it is their, and only their, option that counts. 

I would as adviser to my commander.....advise my commander to allow the wear of this patch on BDUs and AF FDUs.

[goblin]

C'mon.... all the 182 drivers are wearin em

Maybe it's my eyes, or maybe it's the angle of the pic, but those don't look like 182 drivers' wings to me...

It's your eyes.

I'll take your word for it, but at this angle, the shape of those look more like USAF senior pilot wings than CAP wings to me, and, at least in the past, the guys who'd be handing out the wings at AETCFC/SUPTFC were/had been USAF pilots...

No Air Force pilots would wear plastic encased rank or the CAP MAJCOM patch

[winterg]

Bottom line.....as in all things......if 39-1 does not give you a clear answer, ask your chain of command....it is their, and only their, option that counts. 

39-1 is pretty crystal clear that it is not authorized.  There is no "interpretation" involved here.  I sincerely hope you are trolling us for a laugh and not taking such a liberal attitude with regulations.  Nowhere does 39-1 have clause that authorizes items in the "spirit" of it.

[lordmonar]

Not trolling.

Serious.

10.8.  Additional Badge Information
10.8.1.  US Military badges may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with authorizations and instructions found in AFI 36-2903 when appropriate orders granted by competent military authority are present in the member's CAP personnel record.

Unless you can find a definitive description of what a badge is vs what a patch is......then it is up to interpretation.
The AF Weapons School Graduate patch is a type of badge that is awarded for permanent wear on ABUs and FDUs IAW 36-2903.
It is not a temporary team badge/patch (like the old PRIME BEEF/DSPT/T-Birds), it is not a temporary duty badge (like Fire Fighter/Security Forces/IG).

So....by my interpretation it is authorized for wear on CAP AF-Style Uniforms.

If you think that is liberal...okay. 

[goblin]

I stand corrected. Looking at the AFI (Attachment 5) the WIC patch is labeled as the WIC graduation badge.

So with that, I'd say it's allowable on BDUs. Still a no-go on FDUs.

[Nuke52]

C'mon.... all the 182 drivers are wearin em

Maybe it's my eyes, or maybe it's the angle of the pic, but those don't look like 182 drivers' wings to me...

It's your eyes.

I'll take your word for it, but at this angle, the shape of those look more like USAF senior pilot wings than CAP wings to me, and, at least in the past, the guys who'd be handing out the wings at AETCFC/SUPTFC were/had been USAF pilots...

No Air Force pilots would wear plastic encased rank or the CAP MAJCOM patch

He would if he were also a CAP member wearing his AF wings on his CAP flight suit.

[winterg]

Well, I stand corrected.  AFI 36-2903 was changed last year to read to allow the wear of Weapon's Instructor Course Badge on the ABU uniform.  10.5 & Attachment 5.  I'll admit that the AF made the issue as clear as mud by classifying these patches as "badges" but at least there is an actual reg citation and not that I think it is a cool patch. lol

[goblin]

C'mon.... all the 182 drivers are wearin em

Maybe it's my eyes, or maybe it's the angle of the pic, but those don't look like 182 drivers' wings to me...

It's your eyes.

I'll take your word for it, but at this angle, the shape of those look more like USAF senior pilot wings than CAP wings to me, and, at least in the past, the guys who'd be handing out the wings at AETCFC/SUPTFC were/had been USAF pilots...

No Air Force pilots would wear plastic encased rank or the CAP MAJCOM patch

He would if he were also a CAP member wearing his AF wings on his CAP flight suit.

That's a stretch.

[Nuke52]

C'mon.... all the 182 drivers are wearin em

Maybe it's my eyes, or maybe it's the angle of the pic, but those don't look like 182 drivers' wings to me...

It's your eyes.

I'll take your word for it, but at this angle, the shape of those look more like USAF senior pilot wings than CAP wings to me, and, at least in the past, the guys who'd be handing out the wings at AETCFC/SUPTFC were/had been USAF pilots...

No Air Force pilots would wear plastic encased rank or the CAP MAJCOM patch

He would if he were also a CAP member wearing his AF wings on his CAP flight suit.

That's a stretch.

Is it?  By what metric, exactly, do you make that assessment?

[goblin]

Methinks that you can only wear the FDU if you have a CAP rating.

If you have a CAP rating then you must wear that badge.

So if he's wearing an FDU, then he should be wearing CAP wings or he'd be in the wrong. (Embroidered patch ignored)

Long story short, when I choose to wear my bag to CAP, I just wear my AF one since I don't have a CAP aero rating. 

It's a stretch to think that a CAP senior member who is also an AD Senior Pilot would go to the efforts to get his own flight suit, add the plastic rank and all the CAP stuff and not be a CAP pilot.

[TheSkyHornet]

AFI 36-2903 18 JULY 2011 (as revised per the interim change dated 28 MAY 2015)
5.1.2.2. Badges
"If worn, ABU cloth badges will be worn."
"Only sew-on badges will be worn; pin-on type badges of other services will not be worn on the ABU."

CAPM 39-1 26 JUNE 2014  (as current per the memorandum dated 6 November 2015)
5.1.1.3.10. Military Badges.
"US military badges authorized by AFI 36-2903 for wear on the USAF-style uniform may be worn when earned through qualification, awarded by competent authority for service performed in any branch of the armed forces of the United States or its allies, AND authorized for wear on the USAF uniform by AFI 36-2903. Military badges will be placed in accordance with AFI 36-2903 and count towards the maximum of four badges worn on the uniform."
"Military badges on the BDUs may be worn in subdued colors as previously authorized by the Air Force for the BDUs if they cannot be obtained in ultramarine fabric."

CAP recognizes that a badge can come in sewn-on patch form. CAPM 39-1 goes so far as to call various "pins" and "badges" as "patches." Examples are the CAP Command Insignia Pin, which is referred to as a badge:
"5.1.1.3.9. CAP Command Insignia Pin (Unit and Group Commanders). Wear of
this badge is mandatory for all active and graduated commanders in the rank of lieutenant colonel and
below. Current commanders will wear the embroidered insignia sewn to the shirt ½ inch above the
nametape over the right pocket. Graduated commanders will sew the Command Insignia Pin on the
wearer's right centered on the upper pocket flap below the nametape. All insignia will have 1/8 inch of
blue showing at the widest and tallest point of the insignia. Commanders (current and graduated) may
only wear one commander pin, and current commanders wear the pin appropriate to their current
assignment."

If in patch form, in a location respective of where CAPM 39-1 identifies the location of metal insignia or sewn-in items, it is authorized if AFI 36-2903 allows it on the USAF working uniform. Bear in mind that the BDUs we wear versus the Air Force ABU is a completely different uniform and the location of the insignia needs to be adjusted and positioned in accordance with the location defined in our regulations, not the Air Force regulations. Precedence in the regulations identifies that the term "badge" is interchangeable.

I direct you, once again, to the fact that regulations should not be open to interpretation. They need to be clear and concise.

Methinks that you can only wear the FDU if you have a CAP rating.

If you have a CAP rating then you must wear that badge.

So if he's wearing an FDU, then he should be wearing CAP wings or he'd be in the wrong. (Embroidered patch ignored)

Long story short, when I choose to wear my bag to CAP, I just wear my AF one since I don't have a CAP aero rating. 

It's a stretch to think that a CAP senior member who is also an AD Senior Pilot would go to the efforts to get his own flight suit, add the plastic rank and all the CAP stuff and not be a CAP pilot.

You may only wear the FDU with a CAP pilot rating or aircrew mission rating. It's all laid out as to who is authorized to wear one.

CAPM 39-1
8.1.1. Authorized FDU:
"The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional
clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation,
preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The
FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical
rating as defined by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and
Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot,
observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission
qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on
days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and
CFDU wear is appropriate."

FDUs can have military aviation badges on them.

CAPM 39-1
8.2.4.1. Nametags.
"Badges authorized include one CAP aeronautical
rating, CAP occupational badges, a description of a mission qualification ("Mission Scanner") and
military aviation or occupational badge when earned through qualification, awarded by competent
authority for service performed in any branch of the armed forces of the United States or its allies, AND
authorized for wear on the USAF uniform by AFI 36-2903. All badges will be embossed in silver; wings
will be to the right or above an occupational badge, CAP wings above military wings"

[goblin]

Yeah that's pretty much what I said

[Nuke52]

Methinks that you can only wear the FDU if you have a CAP rating.

If you have a CAP rating then you must wear that badge.

So if he's wearing an FDU, then he should be wearing CAP wings or he'd be in the wrong. (Embroidered patch ignored)

Long story short, when I choose to wear my bag to CAP, I just wear my AF one since I don't have a CAP aero rating. 

It's a stretch to think that a CAP senior member who is also an AD Senior Pilot would go to the efforts to get his own flight suit, add the plastic rank and all the CAP stuff and not be a CAP pilot.

Okay, fair enough.  I've run across so many CAPers wearing bags who've never touched an airplane--and certainly weren't going flying that day--that I forgot about the 39-1 requirement of needing to be qualified aircrew to wear one.

I follow your logic, and it is sound, with one important caveat:  there are plenty of AD/retired military members (not to mention the straight-up civilians) who either don't know/care about some of the subtler differences between CAP and USAF uniform regs and default to what they "remember" from the AF or, for whatever reason, choose to ignore some of those subtleties and wear what they "[darn]-well earned in the RealMilitary^TM"...

We can't ignore that he is ignoring the prohibition on embroidered name tags, thus it is no longer such a stretch to believe he'd ignore your (correct) "CAP FDU means qualified CAP aircrew means CAP wings" logic.  You are right that in doing so, he'd be in the wrong, but assuming you agree with my point above that a handful of our members might not always be in 100% compliance with the regs, you must agree that he could, in fact, be wrong in this picture on not only one point, but on two...  Agreed?

You think it's a stretch that a dual CAP SM/AD senior pilot would go to the lengths necessary to procure himself a CAP flight suit.  I don't.  An AD senior pilot (or even Reservist, for that matter, flying for Delta "on the side") may just have a couple extra bucks in his pocket such that buying an additional bag for CAP isn't such a big deal, even if they haven't quite gotten around to taking that CAPF 5/91 ride just yet.  In fact, I personally have known AD (and Reserve and retired) AF aviators who are CAP senior members wanting to fit in and wear the CAP gear, and either didn't know 39-1's qual rule or, "[darn] it, I earned these nav wings, I'm going to wear them!"

Finally, although I'm always happy to overturn the ruling on the field when presented with indisputable video evidence, I've been around the block enough to trust my Mk-1 eyeballs in spotting the difference between CAP's circled tri-prop wings and the radiator grill on a set of USAF wings when I see them--even "at a distance in low light" with low pixel resolution...  Because your "trust me dude, you're wrong" wasn't enough to squelch the pinging of what I knew was correct, I did a bit of digging today.  The gentleman in that picture just happens to be CAP Lt Col/AF Maj (Ret) Rich Augur, yes, that Rich Augur of the RF-4, T-37, and Delta B-767 Augurs http://suptfc.com/cap-officer-staff/ltcol-rich-augur-chief-staneval.html.  Following a tour at Columbus as a Tweet IP/EP, he's been a staff member--first as a Reservist, now as a CAP officer--of ATCFC/AETCFC/SUPTFC since 1990.  Considering his extensive repeat-offender status at Columbus and his long history sporting USAF radiators, I know with certainty the (embroidered) wings he's wearing in the above picture are USAF wings, in his CAP flight suit.  Same goes for the activity commander (https://picasaweb.google.com/116954676776283933894/1301Friday#5895704104378578034).  So no, "all the 182 drivers" aren't wearing embroidered wings these days, because these guys are legit AF pilots who were gracious enough to slap on the CAP MAJCOM patch in continued service to our cadets even after they joined the check-a-month club.

It's okay, you can admit you were wrong now.  But just to show you there's no hard feelings, I'll send you a nice adult beverage of your choice if you can prove--not just claim--me wrong.  Cheers.

[ALH]

Thanks to all for the responses to my question. I'm never been inclined to wear AD insignia on CAP uniforms in the first place, but the question was an interesting one for consideration.

Are you a patch?

I am not. The fella I was discussing it with was. That being said, my application is in and I hope to be able to say "Yes, I am a patch" this time next year.

[goblin]

Noted.

[goblin]

The gentleman in that picture just happens to be CAP Lt Col/AF Maj (Ret) Rich Augur, yes, that Rich Augur of the RF-4, T-37, and Delta B-767 Augurs

Not familiar with "that" Rich Augur...is there a famous story or something that Im missing?

Ironically, I did some snooping on that site you linked and theres a series of pictures from my UPT class/flight room when we hosted SUPT-FC in 2010.

[Toad1168]

Is it any different than former C/Officers having their pips/diamonds sewn under their BDU collars/inside a pocket or something?

My diamonds are pinned in my cover! Out of view of course......

[THRAWN]

The gentleman in that picture just happens to be CAP Lt Col/AF Maj (Ret) Rich Augur, yes, that Rich Augur of the RF-4, T-37, and Delta B-767 Augurs

Not familiar with "that" Rich Augur...is there a famous story or something that Im missing?

Ironically, I did some snooping on that site you linked and theres a series of pictures from my UPT class/flight room when we hosted SUPT-FC in 2010.

There are also photos of the staff. All are wearing embroidered. What gives? Is it like NESA aircrew school where they have their own set of unis and rules?

[raivo]

Well, I stand corrected.  AFI 36-2903 was changed last year to read to allow the wear of Weapon's Instructor Course Badge on the ABU uniform.  10.5 & Attachment 5.  I'll admit that the AF made the issue as clear as mud by classifying these patches as "badges" but at least there is an actual reg citation and not that I think it is a cool patch. lol

Huh? I'm looking at the most recent 36-2903 straight off ePubs right now and it consistently refers to it as the "Weapons Instructor Course Graduate Patch."

[winterg]

Attachment 5 lists the WIC Grad badge.  Is this the patch or a pin style?

[Storm Chaser]

That's most liked a typo, as that is patch not a badge.

[winterg]

That's most liked a typo, as that is patch not a badge.

Right next to it is the Test Pilot School patch listed as a badge as well.  I don't like patches listed as badges either, but it looks like they are? Maybe?  I don't know anymore. lol

[Nuke52]

The gentleman in that picture just happens to be CAP Lt Col/AF Maj (Ret) Rich Augur, yes, that Rich Augur of the RF-4, T-37, and Delta B-767 Augurs

Not familiar with "that" Rich Augur...is there a famous story or something that Im missing?

No, nothing famous beyond the SUPT-FC MS community.  It was just an attempt at a pop culture reference that may have been before your time (e.g., "you mean Charles Heatherly--of the Covington-on-Thames Heatherlys?").  A swing and a miss, I guess.

Ironically, I did some snooping on that site you linked and theres a series of pictures from my UPT class/flight room when we hosted SUPT-FC in 2010.

Oh yeah, which flight?

[goblin]

37FTS, Lightning Flight

[Nuke52]

Attachment 5 lists the WIC Grad badge.  Is this the patch or a pin style?

To my (admittedly not-exhaustive) knowledge, there is no metal/enamel/etc. version of the WIC patch that is authorized for wear on an AF uniform.  Yes, the attachment to the AFI certainly says--very clearly, in black and white--WIC Grad "Badge", but I do believe that to be a typo, as the TPS patch right next to it is clearly listed as TPS "Patch".  No matter however, as the heading of the attachment is "QUALIFICATION BADGES" and it seems clear to me, that typo or not, by their inclusion in Attch 5, that the AFI intends the WIC and TPS patches to be treated as badges. 

(As a side note, not only is there the "badge vs. patch" typo, but the picture included is not, repeat not, even a WIC patch...  The dark border around it makes that the WIC Instructor patch (i.e., the guys who teach WIC).  Come on, guys, have some attention to detail.  Seriously...)

[Storm Chaser]

That's most liked a typo, as that is patch not a badge.

Right next to it is the Test Pilot School patch listed as a badge as well.  I don't like patches listed as badges either, but it looks like they are? Maybe?  I don't know anymore. lol

But the Test Pilot School one actually says patch. Both patches are listed under qualification badges, but they're actually patches and the Air Force treats them as such.

[winterg]

As I said.  Clear as mud. 

[goblin]

(As a side note, not only is there the "badge vs. patch" typo, but the picture included is not, repeat not, even a WIC patch...  The dark border around it makes that the WIC Instructor patch (i.e., the guys who teach WIC).  Come on, guys, have some attention to detail.  Seriously...)

I can admit when I'm wrong (Pilot Wings), now its your turn

[goblin]

That's most liked a typo, as that is patch not a badge.

Right next to it is the Test Pilot School patch listed as a badge as well.  I don't like patches listed as badges either, but it looks like they are? Maybe?  I don't know anymore. lol

But the Test Pilot School one actually says patch. Both patches are listed under qualification badges, but they're actually patches and the Air Force treats them as such.

The reason the TPS one says "patch" is because it is restricted to the FDU only.  With the addition of the WIC patch to the ABUs, it is treated as a badge and will be worn as such.

[Nuke52]

37FTS, Lightning Flight

Oh, one of those guys...  j/k.  48th or 50th afterward, or Corpus/Rucker?

[goblin]

48th -> KC-135s

[Nuke52]

(As a side note, not only is there the "badge vs. patch" typo, but the picture included is not, repeat not, even a WIC patch...  The dark border around it makes that the WIC Instructor patch (i.e., the guys who teach WIC).  Come on, guys, have some attention to detail.  Seriously...)

I can admit when I'm wrong (Pilot Wings), now its your turn

To be honest, I love admitting it when I'm actually wrong because not everyone can, but I'm afraid that what you've presented there is a morale patch and NOT what actual WIC instructors wear.  [Pop culture-reference alert] "I been to one world's fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and..." I've never seen a patch like that before. [/Pcra]  The site you got that pic from also has these WIC patches for sale, and I think we can agree that they're not official...

,  ,  and

Show me something from an official source, and the previous offer stands:  a frosty adult beverage shipped to your location tout de suite.  On the other hand, well, you know the drill...

[Nuke52]

48th -> KC-135s

Cool.  Hopefully someplace nice--thankfully mercifully, el Forko Grande is off the table for you.

[goblin]

(As a side note, not only is there the "badge vs. patch" typo, but the picture included is not, repeat not, even a WIC patch...  The dark border around it makes that the WIC Instructor patch (i.e., the guys who teach WIC).  Come on, guys, have some attention to detail.  Seriously...)

I can admit when I'm wrong (Pilot Wings), now its your turn

To be honest, I love admitting it when I'm actually wrong because not everyone can, but I'm afraid that what you've presented there is a morale patch and NOT what actual WIC instructors wear.  [Pop culture-reference alert] "I been to one world's fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and..." I've never seen a patch like that before. [/Pcra]  The site you got that pic from also has these WIC patches for sale, and I think we can agree that they're not official...

,  ,  and

Show me something from an official source, and the previous offer stands:  a frosty adult beverage shipped to your location tout de suite.  On the other hand, well, you know the drill...

Here I am TDY to a tropical part of the world and you've got me in the AFI's trying to second guess myself instead of on the beach!

2x frosty cold ones for you. 

ETA:  Never thought I'd have a reason to open the WIC AFI.  That should be the last time that's done...

[Nuke52]

(As a side note, not only is there the "badge vs. patch" typo, but the picture included is not, repeat not, even a WIC patch...  The dark border around it makes that the WIC Instructor patch (i.e., the guys who teach WIC).  Come on, guys, have some attention to detail.  Seriously...)

I can admit when I'm wrong (Pilot Wings), now its your turn

To be honest, I love admitting it when I'm actually wrong because not everyone can, but I'm afraid that what you've presented there is a morale patch and NOT what actual WIC instructors wear.  [Pop culture-reference alert] "I been to one world's fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and..." I've never seen a patch like that before. [/Pcra]  The site you got that pic from also has these WIC patches for sale, and I think we can agree that they're not official...


Show me something from an official source, and the previous offer stands:  a frosty adult beverage shipped to your location tout de suite.  On the other hand, well, you know the drill...

Here I am TDY to a tropical part of the world and you've got me in the AFI's trying to second guess myself instead of on the beach!

2x frosty cold ones for you. 

ETA:  Never thought I'd have a reason to open the WIC AFI.  That should be the last time that's done...

No need on the frosty ones, your acknowledgement is payment enough.  Now go hit the d--- beach!

[raivo]

Attachment 5 lists the WIC Grad badge.  Is this the patch or a pin style?

I think you may be looking at the A5 from an old (or interim, or something) 36-2903. In the most current one on ePubs, the heading of A5 reads "Qualification Badges & Graduate Patches" and the WIC/TP patches are referred to as such, and the other images on the page are all labeled as badges.

[ALH]

Pot Stir:

AFI 36-2903 Para 10.5.3 states " 10.5.3. United States Air Force Warfare Center (USAFWS) Patch. For specific wear criteria USAFWS patch (graduate or instructor) , refer to AFI 11-415, para 7.2.".  Patch, right? Well, now you go to AFI 11-415 para 7.2 (which is actually 6.2 after some updates that didn't make it into -2903) and it says " 6.2. USAFWS Graduate Patch/Badge/Insignia. USAFWS Graduate Patch/Badge/Insignia will be worn as follows:", saying it is a combo Patch/Badge/Insignia.

Head hurt yet?

Disclaimer: I don't like military insignia on CAP uniforms. I don't ever plan to wear them on my CAP uniforms, so  don't have a dog in this fight. I just know how much you all love uniform arguments...