Wearing of the FDU during non-CAP CFI Flight Training and other flight

Started by srosenberg, December 29, 2014, 04:42:25 AM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Eclipse

Flight training doesn't necessarily benefit CAP - what if you're the worst pilot in your state?
Seeing the "Zippered Sun God" emerge from his chariot after doing something silly (or dangerous)
won't enhance CAP's image at the FBO, and in fact may make it worse, all because you "knew better"
about the great service you were doing for CAP by learning to fly in their uniform.

Next question - is your flight instructor wearing a flight suit?  How about the other students around you?
If they are, you might want to review crash statistics with them and find out why they feel the need,
since as Jeders mentioned, impact trauma is a much higher risk then fire.  If they aren't, take the hint,
as probably 75-90% of flight instructors dress in comfortable civilian clothes with ground weather being
more of a factor in their dress then post-crash fire.

As to the assertions about MO's needing to assist pilots, or the Scanner performing first aid from the back
seat, well, good luck with that.   Just do >your< aircrew job, and don't worry about it.  CAP doesn't,
GA doesn't, nor do crash statistics.

Your squadron commander can't authorize it because he doesn't have the authority to authorize the
training as a CAP activity, only NHQ can do that.

And "supporting the future"? What the heck does that have to do with your wearing a uniform
in a prohibited fashion?

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on December 30, 2014, 04:08:29 PM
Flight training doesn't necessarily benefit CAP - what if you're the worst pilot in your state?
Seeing the "Zippered Sun God" emerge from his chariot after doing something silly (or dangerous)
won't enhance CAP's image at the FBO, and in fact may make it worse, all because you "knew better"
about the great service you were doing for CAP by learning to fly in their uniform.


I'm just going to quote Eclipse's signature:
QuoteEffort" does not equal "results".

srosenberg

Quote"Good on you. Has nothing to do with CAP."
Actually... it has everything to do with CAP when this is where I intend to the the sole area of my flying.  I think that the squadron commander can sense one's contribution to the squadron and the mission, and assess this.  It is not like I am going to take my Cessna skills and go fly for United. 

Quote".... Instances like this are probably part of that reason."
What instances like this have happened in the past and what were the results? What possible negative outcome comes from outside training like this that disrespects the uniform.  I am still searching for this.

Quote"Are you the Observer or the Pilot..."
I am an Observer training to be a Pilot. There is no connectivity between the two inside of CAP. It's the addage "You can't get there from here."  It can help.  I am not seeking to do proficiency in a CAP aircraft.  In fact, I never brought that topic up.  My point here was that when we are not training the Mission Observer to support an in flight emergency, we may suffer crew loss if the pilot is ever incapacitated." You can disagree with me until the time that it actually happens. I have already filed the Hazard Report on this some time ago.

Quote"How long have you been in CAP".
I have been in CAP for nearly 2 years.  After my first year, I had accomplished my Level 1, 2nd Lt., Yeager Award, Mission Scanner, Mission Observer, Mission Scanner/Observer Evaluator, understanding of G1000 MFD buttonology, ICUT Evaluator, Airborne Photographer, and Operations Officer Technician Specialty rating among other quals including SLS and CLC.  That was year 1.  I have my online FEMA courses completed, and took ISC-300 at MER SAR College (one more to go) with the intentions of becoming a Planning Section Chief when I am too old to fly. I have one minor detail to wrap up on my Level III even though I won't be needing it for a while. Over the past year I picked up Technician Specialty ratings for Communications and Information Technology. I am working on a fourth rating for Professional Development that my squadron threw at me because they needed a PDO, and I was not a bad choice based on all the training I did in such a short time.  I passed the FAA Knowledge Exam for Private Pilot Aircraft with an 87% without going to ground school by showing up at my local FSDO. I brought my curriculum (a collection of second hand books that I bought on E-bay and read) and answered their pop quiz to get the piece of paper I needed to sit for the exam. If there is going to be a case where someone is going to be a Mission Pilot the following month, it will be me.  I don't expect that though.  It is a hard road ahead, and I expect to be a Mission Pilot in the time that I can make it happen. Experience happens in the amount of time you want it to. Please don't fault the dedicated.

Quote"There are plenty of people who have a PPL that are not a good fit for CAP and our way of doing things."
Could not agree more.  Reminds me of one I met up here in the DC area.  He was asking about the restricted space in Thurmont, MD.  He wanted to see if there was a way he could get clearance to fly it, and asked me because I was in my flight suit (having returned from a SAREX on the Eastern Shore). I was taken aback... "Camp David you mean?" It took him a couple go rounds to help him understand that he really could not fly there without significant consequences. There are people who buy themselves into flying, and those that do more to earn it. My point was more oriented toward CAP offering opportunities to help those that want to earn it, to earn it, and in doing so we are trained to be compatible with CAP culture. This can include the help and participation of FBO's.  Another case in point.  As I am learning to be a pilot myself, I pay my dues by getting to the aircraft wayyyy early to support pre-flight.  Granted, the pilot is responsible for the preflight, and does one himself.  However, by the time the pilot arrives, most of the work is done where the red flags and window screens are removed, I have the HOBBS and TACH, oil qty, tire pressures, lights checked, and tanks dipped and strained.  There was a time that there was significant frost on the aircraft and without me there to turn the aircraft into the sun, it would had delayed us.  Anyway, I learned this in CAP, from the pilots, by the checklist.  Conversely, when I did my first flight hour with a CFI, I found the preflight to not be as extensive as the one we do in CAP. That, with a sense of lapsed standards and the wrong attitude can be a dangerous thing.  I get your meaning. 

The mantra I developed before I even considered a serious attempt at flight training and even prior to joining CAP was to "Fly safely, with meaning." Translated, it means, "Don't kill yourself over a $200 cheeseburger!"  I find that I can easily accomplish my mantra in CAP.  The issue I come across is that I am consistently running against a river current of policy meant to deter the bad egg factor. Last year I experienced this when my Ops Officer recommended me to be an FRO based on my former Navy Squadron QA experience, and the Wing told me that I was not old enough (in CAP years) to have the right attitude to perform the job. Coming from a QA position in an operationally active E-2C squadron with a year and a half of at sea time aboard an aircraft carrier... I disagreed. 

Quote"Relationships between CAP and FBO's"
Here is an excellent point... thank you.  Now I do. 

Quote"Medium? Try extremely low. "
Disagree.  Professionally, I am a PMI Certified Project Management Professional with a significant understanding of Risk Management.  As far as probability is concerned with a multitude of known unknowns... (risks that we know about that in a large sampling happen all of the time, we just don't know when they are going to happen and to who), one mitigates a risk in some way if the risk impact is exceptionally high. Crew loss is an exceptionally high impact. Training has always been a low cost mitigation.

Quote"Check out 39-1"
Actually, I did.  It does not describe the wearing of any uniform relative to training that is held outside of CAP.  So if I independently go to a non-sanctioned Water Survival training held by the Coast Guard so I can get a qual for WS, I can't wear my uniform?  I am not seeking to be argumentative, just seeking to express my point.  Just to show I have actually read the regulation, apparently though later on in 39-1, it does say that I can wear my FSU's into a Burger King or some other similar establishment to get a bite to eat while at a CAP activity, as long as they don't primarily serve alcohol. I should also not wear it to any of those Communist Party Meetings :).

Quote"How in the world will first aid in a cramped plane help a pilot in trouble?"
- With great difficulty, however should the pilot have an immediate issue, one where the MO must take control of the aircraft, the only person in a spot to provide any kind of help to the pilot is the Mission Scanner... much like a dentist might from behind the seat.  Even so, since MO's must be MS's first, First Aid is not a bad thing, not even if the Pilot or MO lands the plane hard in the middle of nowhere.  To your point, it would be highly desirable for the pilot to land the aircraft if the pilot could do that.  In the case of my previous video of the bird strike - what if the windshield cut into the pilot and knocked him out. It is a freak thing, I recognize, but as they say "defecation occurs."  The only person there to help stop any bleeding from such an event would be the Mission Scanner. Let's put you in the Mission Scanner seat... what would you do?  Would you let your friend bleed out because the cockpit is cramped and uncomfortable?  As improbable as this scenario is, bird strikes happen all of the time, and this does not include other kinds of emergencies.  I saw a previous comment about that I am "what if'ing this.. and what'ifing that...."  Risk Management is entirely about what if's.  So is Hazard Reporting.

Quote"If you think your pilot is one heartbeat away from a nosedive, that's when you call a safety stop, and refuse to fly with them. "
Well said, however this was not the point I was making.  My pilots know that should I have an issue with their I'M SAFE that cannot be resolved between us, I will call the FRO. I have told them, and told them why. All of them are friends and I would not let them take off much like I would not let them drive drunk. It would be more than a refusal to fly, but an escalation to the FRO that would not be out of anger, but be out of love. Astronaut Mike Mullane has an excellent presentation on "Normalization of Deviance" http://www.publicsafetyedu.com/PSEN_NOD.html in this area that I highly recommend. The FRO can sort it out, and I know that the rules for the FRO say that if they have a negative gut feeling for a flight, they should not release it. To your comment, I was talking about conditions that were not known prior to takeoff. 

Quote"The Nomex argument is always silly in GA terms, because people will wear boots or shoes that don't cut it, have no gloves, and no helmet. We'll just have a midriff open casket. "
I have also heard the one about the guy dressed in Nomex that got burned while trying to pull his pilot out of the burning aircraft.  I am not saying that it is like wearing indestructable black box material.  I am saying that it is a preference in clothing over types of clothing that melt.  It is possible to crash without head injury, and for the aircraft to catch fire. Should this be the case, I prefer to be in Nomex.

Quote"Perhaps....actually reading the uniform manual?"
Yup, read it.  Where does it mention outside training?  Again, it should be up to the squadron commander to determine if the outside training is relevant to CAP or not based on the circumstances or performance of the person undergoing the training or intended use of the training.  You might be able to call me on the "What happens if I were to leave CAP after training" factor.  The answer would come back that I don't get to fly anymore for lack of access to a low cost aircraft.  I would not have as much fun doing it either.  However while I am still here, it would be nice to proudly wear the uniform during my training and reflect well upon our organization.  Not a lot to ask for, and does not cost CAP anything, even if I were to leave with my skills.




srosenberg

Ok.. On Zippered Sun God... I am going to have to just buy a second flight suit on that one.  It's not worth the trouble, and may even cause me an aneurism to even discuss it.


My fingers are tired.

Eclipse

Quote from: srosenberg on December 30, 2014, 06:24:22 PM
Quote"Check out 39-1"
Actually, I did.  It does not describe the wearing of any uniform relative to training that is held outside of CAP.

And there's your answer.

Quote from: srosenberg on December 30, 2014, 06:24:22 PMAgain, it should be up to the squadron commander to determine if the outside training is relevant to CAP or not based on the circumstances or performance of the person undergoing the training or intended use of the training.

It is, within his AOR and level of authority.

First Aid Class?  Sure.

ICS Training?  No problem.

Flight training?  Nope.  Why, because initial flight training of members requires NHQ approval, therefore it is
not an activity he can, under any circumstances, authorize, and therefore he cannot authorize you to
wear a CAP uniform while participating in that activity.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Still can't past the point of wanting to be IN uniform, doing flight training...

srosenberg

Well I have my reasons. :)  It looks like a second flight suit is for me if for no other reason to end this mess.

I believe that some valid points were discussed, and I thank you again for your contributions.

lordmonar

Quote from: srosenberg on December 30, 2014, 06:50:49 PM
Well I have my reasons. :)  It looks like a second flight suit is for me if for no other reason to end this mess.

I believe that some valid points were discussed, and I thank you again for your contributions.
That was the answer about 100 posts ago.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Private Investigator

Quote from: jeders on December 30, 2014, 03:54:18 PM
Quote from: srosenberg on December 30, 2014, 03:07:50 PM
I have disagreement that if something is not mentioned in the Uniform Manual or the regs that it is automatic that one can't do it.

Disagree all you want, it doesn't change the fact that there is a great big disclaimer in 39-1 that specifically says anything not authorized by that manual is prohibited. So that means that your original question of wearing a CAP uniform during a non-CAP event is specifically prohibited; end of story.

QuoteThe use of the flight suit is not to impress...  it is safety gear.

I have to throw the BS flag on this one UNLESS you also plan on wearing a helmet whenever you fly. If you go down on final, the odds are that blunt force trauma to the head will kill or incapacitate you long before the fire ever becomes an issue. The only time that the Nomex really becomes a safety item is if there is a fire in the cockpit during flight. So, if you're going to claim the safety card, then I expect to see you wearing a helmet.

I bring my helmet with me everytime I go to Hooters because it is really expected of Maverick to do so.  8)

Luis R. Ramos

And you keep your helmet on after you return home because in the morning you will crash...?

>:D
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Panzerbjorn

Too much to quote, edit, and filter, so I'm just going to talk.  A lot of excellent points have been made, and I just figured this thread could also benefit from hearing from a pilot who came into CAP before he was one.

First....flight training in boots and Nomex flight suit.  Why on earth would you want to do such a thing to yourself, especially if you plan on doing any of your flight training during the year and in places when outside air temperatures exceed 40 degrees?  You have enough to concentrate and sweat about during your initial flight training without adding a sweat bag.  I guarantee you that your instructor won't be sitting there in a flight suit and combat boots.  Now, I won't debate the safety benefits of wearing Nomex, but I question the logic behind why according to 39-1 the green FDU must be made of Nomex, but the BFDU has the option of being either Nomex or cotton/polyester.  Personally, I'm not eligible to wear the green one, so I go with the more comfortable blue cotton/polyester one when I actually wear a flight suit.  95% of my CAP flying is done in a blue polo and gray slacks.  When it gets chilly, I add the black leather jacket.  If I get called to the airport while I happen to be out and about in civies, or if it's just plain cold out, that's when I turn to the flight suit.

Next, while goodwill towards FBO and flight schools play in to the reasons why Seniors can't get their primary training in CAP aircraft, it's not the primary reason.  If it was, we wouldn't allow cadets to conduct primary flight training in CAP aircraft.  A bigger reason is that CAP gets no benefit out of giving adults primary training in their aircraft if the end result is that Senior leaves as soon as he gets his PPL.  Currently we rent our 182s to members for right around $40/hr dry, which works out to be right around $100/hr wet to fly a new G1000 182T NAVIII. You'll be paying right around $180/hr wet at any given flight school for the same equipment.  It's a huge temptation to budding pilots to go the CAP route to get their primary to same precious moolah.

Next, how CAP supports the development and training of her pilots.  Those training and funded flight hours are directly related to your PIC time.

Up to 100 hours PIC: You're pretty much on your own and rely on your own motivation and pocketbook for flight hours.  You can get your Form 5 while the ink is still wet on your PPL.

100-175 hours PIC: Now you can be a Transport Mission Pilot.  Now you can be funded for various tasks like maintenance flights.  You can fly High Bird missions, and you can fly legitimate transport missions.  CAP once gave me 10 hours of funded PIC time to fly from Chicago to Duluth to Scott AFB to Mattoon, IL back to Chicago to transport someone supporting an Actual.  The opportunities are limited, but they're there.

175-200 hours PIC: you're now in the range of Mission Pilot Trainee.  You are now eligible for SAR training funding in support of development for you to be a Mission Pilot.

200 hours PIC: You've hit that magical 200, and can now take your Form 91.  Now as a Mission Pilot, the doors open and you have all sorts of opportunities available to you including cadet orientation pilot.

300 hours PIC: AFROTC cadet o-flight pilot is available to you.

500 hours PIC: CAP glider tow pilot.

The most aggravating time for a new CAP pilot is that period until you get 100 hours of PIC, then CAP is able to actually help out beyond letting you use the airplane.

Next, I highly disagree with the statement that someone could just come into CAP off the street with 200 hours of PIC and be a Mission Pilot in the next month.  The only reason, in my opinion, I was able to get my MP qualification right when 200 PIC clicked over was because I had already been an Observer for several years and had a firm understanding on what it is we do as well on how to do it.  I also had the benefit of using every one of those 25 hours of training between 175-200 hours PIC devoted exclusively to MP training.    I would agree that you can get it done in 25 hours, but few CAP pilots fly 25 hours a month.

Next, the FRO issue.  I hear what you're saying regarding the FROs and pilots about being friends.  But I don't see the problem with that.  Your job as an FRO is not to second guess the capabilities of the pilot and find ways to stop the flight.  Your job is to ensure that the flight is filed correctly under CAP regulations, has the right symbol, and ensure the crew complies with IMSAFE.  You're then there to monitor the flight until it's back safe down on the ground.  The ORM worksheet gives categories of who can release that flight based on the overall risk.  The higher the risk, the higher the authority needs to release that flight.  The idea of you not liking the pilot and calling the FRO basically demanding that they not release the flight or 'unrelease' the flight is ludicrous because it's completely unnecessary. If you're getting bad voodoo vibes about the flight, you have the complete right and ability to abort the flight as part of the aircrew.  There's no need to talk to the FRO.  You shouldn't even be calling the FRO to get a release unless you're the pilot.  That's the pi,it's responsibility.  In that scenario, if you called me, I would be polite and say "The flight has been released, but it sounds like you're having a problem and aborting.  That's fine, just don't fly then and make sure you indicate in WMIRS when you close out your sortie that you didn't fly the sortie."  It need not go any further than that.  But to assume that because an FRO and pilot are friends that there's a good ole boys complacency attitude there is ignorant, in my opinion.  I know the vast majority of the pilots who call me for a release and friends with all of them.  I have a pretty good idea of the capabilities of those pilots and trust that they are flying within their comfort zones as well as legal capabilities.  Wing FROs are chosen based on their knowledge of 60-1 regulations, maturity, and most of all....need.  If you already have your complement of FROs for the Wing, you don't need to keep adding them.  You can always still release flights as an AOBD without being a designated Wing FRO when you're operating at a Mission/SAREX in an AOBD capacity. 

Anyway, I'll pass the soapbox to someone else for the time being, but this thread just begged for me piping in.
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout

Eclipse

Wow - I didn't even catch that nonsense about the FRO until you mentioned it.

Any aircrew member who isn't comfortable can call a "knock it off' or simply disengage themselves from a flight,
but you don't go calling the FRO and trying to get things "unreleased" - that's a pilot-only job.

Doing that, or calling a "knock-it-off", is going to have ramifications for someone, so you better be prepared
with legitimate justification.  A substantiated safety issue about the aircraft, pilot, or mission plan is fair game,
some nonsense about somebody "touching your stuff" or similar is likely to get you disavowed for a while,
whether officially or unofficially.

Probably the #1 thing that gets new CAP members in trouble is "failure to follow procedure", something goes "sideways",
or not to their liking, and instead of addressing it properly, they make up things on the fly, ignore the chain or complaint system,
etc., etc., and their possibly legitimate issue is lost in the noise of not following the rules.

I'm sure your response is going to be "I'll take that risk, out of love...".  Whatever.  Seriously, you're >WAY<
up in your head about this and need to "unoverthink" things a bit. You asked if you could wear a flight suit during non-CAP IPT,
and even the OP itself included "head-off-the-objections" verbiage which indicated you probably already knew the answer.
The answer was / is "no" to which you then responded with manifestos about public image, safety, flying from the right seat, first aid
by the scanner from the back seat (or maybe he's out on the strut doing CPR through the window?), and a host of other unrelated
issues that have nothing to do with what you wear when you're not in CAP.

Relax, take CAP a small piece at a time - use what you learn in IPT to your advantage as an MO, but don't get ahead of yourself,
and don't be all "first year college" when you're talking to people locally about what CAP should or shouldn't be doing.

"That Others May Zoom"

srosenberg

So Eclipse... what you are saying is that an FRO who is promised IM SAFE and releases  a pilot on the phone holds the full picture  more than a friend doing the right thing by being the ground truth who may see that things are not ok? I know to quit the flight. I wont let my friend fly either. How did your priorities get so screwed up to call this a pilot only thing?

You work with your pilots the way you want. Mine already know what I am about, and I have their respect.




Eclipse

Quote from: srosenberg on December 31, 2014, 08:17:50 PM
So Eclipse... what you are saying is that an FRO who is promised IM SAFE and releases  a pilot on the phone holds the full picture  more than a friend doing the right thing by being the ground truth who may see that things are not ok? I know to quit the flight. I wont let my friend fly either. How did your priorities get so screwed up to call this a pilot only thing?

We give our pilots an assumption of integrity when they answer the FRO's questions, verified for most answers about the mission
parameters via what is available in WMIRS.  Crew and aircraft readiness on the ground are left to the PIC with input from the aircrew.

You, as an MO, have the right to disengage at any time you feel unsafe.  You can call "knock it off" at any time in the air and ask to
be RTB'ed, you do >not< however, have the authority to "unrelease" a flight.  You can raise any objections you like, get on the phone
through your chain or the wing SE or DO and indicate the issues, but if a PIC feels his aircraft and crew are safe, and the mission can
continue without you, he can notify the FRO that the crew has changed, and be on his way, leaving you on the ramp.

Now, any FRO with a lick of sense, who gets a call from another member of the crew who is trying to "unrelease" the flight
is going to immediately call the PIC back and find our WTH is going on out there, and if he determines there's an issue, he may well
revoke the release verbally and update WMIRS (and then get on the horn with the DO, Wing CC, or unit CC and start recommending
flight suspension until the situation is sorted out).

But absent a verifiable issue, or with assurances that the situation is either "manageable" or "non-exisitant", that aircraft may well
leave without you.

Quote from: srosenberg on December 31, 2014, 08:17:50 PM
You work with your pilots the way you want. Mine already know what I am about, and I have their respect.

"Your" pilots?  So you have never had occasion to fly with someone you have just met in the briefing room and don't know from Adam?
You might consider that possibility if you intend to participate outside the scope of your home unit. The threshold of ORM for a given
mission may be above your comfort level but subjectively within the realm of safety.

CAP has standardized processes, authority, chains of command and assumptions of integrity for this very reason, because
you may well >not< know the other guys in the plane, nor will they have any awareness of your history or abilities.
Walk too far outside your lane and you may find yourself with extra free time on the weekend.

"That Others May Zoom"

Panzerbjorn

Quote from: srosenberg on December 31, 2014, 08:17:50 PM
So Eclipse... what you are saying is that an FRO who is promised IM SAFE and releases  a pilot on the phone holds the full picture  more than a friend doing the right thing by being the ground truth who may see that things are not ok? I know to quit the flight. I wont let my friend fly either. How did your priorities get so screwed up to call this a pilot only thing?

You work with your pilots the way you want. Mine already know what I am about, and I have their respect.

What we're saying is that the FRO only needs, and really only WANTS, to deal with the pilot.  In order to grant a flight release, we must speak with the PIC.  If you call me as the MO, I can't grant you a flight release.  That's in FRO training and part of the test.  If you call me as the MO and start bawling me out for granting a flight release and how I need to reverse it, my first question is going to be why was I called for a flight release in the first place when you clearly are having some major crew issues on the ground.

What we both also said is that you sitting in that right seat have every right and ability to abort a sortie at ANYTIME.  If you say you're aborting this sortie, why do you need the 'blessing' of the FRO?  The FRO is there to CYA and as an insurance policy to send out search teams if you go down somewhere.  They're not dispatchers.  Think of it this way...you've been talking about primary flight training.  Now you're an FRO.  Who are you to decide my capabilities as a pilot?  Are you going to tell an Instrument rated pilot that he can't go fly just because the ceilings are lower than what you feel comfortable flying in?

By the way....Because the FRO doesn't have nearly the full picture that the pilot does, that's WHY the FRO is not there to second guess the pilot and deny a flight release because of what THEY think is going on.  They can advise, caution, and strongly caution of anything they THINK is going on, but the final go or no-go call belongs to the PIC.

For someone who couldn't figure out that you shouldn't be wearing a CAP uniform flying in a non-CAP plane under non-CAP circumstances, perhaps you should try listening to much more experienced CAP members such as Eclipse and myself instead of telling us our priorities are screwed up and that we should do things our way, and you'll just do things your way.  I promise you that contributed to a loss of some respect from THIS Mission Pilot.
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout

Storm Chaser

Quote from: Panzerbjorn on December 31, 2014, 04:49:25 PM
Now, I won't debate the safety benefits of wearing Nomex, but I question the logic behind why according to 39-1 the green FDU must be made of Nomex, but the BFDU has the option of being either Nomex or cotton/polyester.

That's easy to answer. The green Nomex flight suit is not a CAP corporate uniform, but an Air Force-style uniform. As such, the Air Force has control over it. In the 12+ years I've been flying with the Air Force, I've yet to be issued a non-Nomex flight suit. If you don't want to wear Nomex, there are other options... in blue.

Panzerbjorn

Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 31, 2014, 09:16:03 PM
Quote from: Panzerbjorn on December 31, 2014, 04:49:25 PM
Now, I won't debate the safety benefits of wearing Nomex, but I question the logic behind why according to 39-1 the green FDU must be made of Nomex, but the BFDU has the option of being either Nomex or cotton/polyester.

That's easy to answer. The green Nomex flight suit is not a CAP corporate uniform, but an Air Force-style uniform. As such, the Air Force has control over it. In the 12+ years I've been flying with the Air Force, I've yet to be issued a non-Nomex flight suit. If you don't want to wear Nomex, there are other options... in blue.

I agree.  My point was actually more trying to say that if the need was felt for that extra margin of safety, then it would be an across the board requirement to wear Nomex instead of giving you other options like the cotton blue one or the polo/slacks flying uniform.
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout

Storm Chaser

I agree as well. Safety is not the main reason for CAP to have the AF-style FDU. If it was, there wouldn't be other options as you point out.

lordmonar

Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 31, 2014, 09:35:17 PM
I agree as well. Safety is not the main reason for CAP to have the AF-style FDU. If it was, there wouldn't be other options as you point out.
Safety is not the main reason the USAF has the FDU either.  :).  Sorry could not pass up the opportunity to air crew bash.  :)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Storm Chaser

Quote from: lordmonar on December 31, 2014, 09:45:53 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 31, 2014, 09:35:17 PM
I agree as well. Safety is not the main reason for CAP to have the AF-style FDU. If it was, there wouldn't be other options as you point out.
Safety is not the main reason the USAF has the FDU either.  :).  Sorry could not pass up the opportunity to air crew bash.  :)

Actually, it was one of the reasons it was developed. It was designed to meet the needs of fighter pilots and other aircrew members. Now, it's also become a distinctive uniform for rated officers, career enlisted aviators and other personnel performing flight duties. This "distinctive" uniform has been extended to other career fields, including space operations.