Wearing of the FDU during non-CAP CFI Flight Training and other flight

[srosenberg]

I have an interesting question about the wearing of the Flight Suit that fits into a regulation gray area.

The reason to wear the FDU (Flight Duty Uniform/Flight Suit) is more than for reasons of looking cool - it is for safety, the Nomex fire resistant fabric.  For those of us who are training to be private pilots by seeking out a non-CAP CFI, and flying in a non-CAP aircraft, it is desirable that we train under the same circumstances that we would fly for CAP.  For instance, the feel of boots on the rudder control pedals has a different feel to it than that of sneakers.
 
While I have read the CAP Uniform Manual for guidance of when the flight suit may or may not be worn, the only guidance that is offered references the kinds of dining establishments one may conveniently wear the uniform when getting a bite to eat. More generally is the 1-hour before/after a CAP meeting/activity rule for any CAP uniform. More specifically is to not wear any CAP uniform at any event that will bring discredit upon it.

Personally, I would consider any opportunity in which a new prospective CAP pilot may log a flight hour is a training opportunity that supports the CAP mission regardless of if it is specifically CAP sanctioned or not, and therefore the uniform could technically be worn. Flight training is indeed part of Aerospace Education, one of the three aspects of the CAP mission, and the very act of it brings credit upon the member and the uniform which stands opposite to the previously stated rule regarding discredit. 

Locally, I have the Fort Meade Flying Activity nearby that rents wet (fueled) aircraft at a significant discount.  It is an NSA flying club that is open to CAP members, so the FDU's would be appropriate.  It is a small logic leap to say that the same concept might apply to privately owned rental aircraft if a member wanted to wear the uniform.  The issue that I am running upon is that there is no hard and fast rule described in the uniform manual that comes close to addressing training that a member does independently that is conducted outside of CAP, using non-CAP aircraft.   

I was wondering if there was anyone out there in this CAPTalk forum that has run upon the answer to this.

[Eclipse]

Remove the insignia and namebadge and you can wear it anywhere you want, otherwise CAP-activities only.

Conveniently, the FDU has Velcro on anything relevent to the issue.

[lordmonar]

Rank should not be Velcro

[Live2Learn]

Remove the insignia and namebadge and you can wear it anywhere you want, otherwise CAP-activities only.

Conveniently, the FDU has Velcro on anything relevent to the issue.

CAPR 39-1 says "8.2.3.2. Rank Insignia (Officers). Wear regular size plastic encased rank insignia centered on top of each shoulder with bottom edge of insignia placed 1⁄2 inch from shoulder seam and attached with clear plastic or OD thread."

A better option might be to acquire a second USAF style FDU for flight training, if the intent is to "train as we fly" complete with flight suit and boots.

[Eclipse]

Rank should not be Velcro

Whoops, good point, although you could argue (I wouldn't) the grade insignia isn't CAP-specific, per se,
though in that case you're opening yourself up to stolen valor / poser accusations.

Best to just not wear it, it's really not necessary in a GA plane, anyway.  Depending on the flight
school, you might get asked who you're trying to impress with a flight suit and 5 hours PIC.

[srosenberg]

I would like to refocus the question a bit.  We could be talking about velcro, and who we are trying to impress, etc, etc.  The question is... can a CAP flight suit be worn while undergoing private pilot training?  I am Mission Observer qualled myself, and this is the way that I go flying in the right seat.  Not seeking to impress - seeking the Nomex and boots. 

Is there any reason why I cannot undergo my flight training, or any non-CAP flight training in my CAP flight suit?  If so, where is it in the regs?

I have access to a private pilot CFI... not wearing my flight suit to a flight school.

[Eclipse]

No, you may not wear the CAP FDU during non-CAP flight activities.

Further, wear of the uniform outside of normal meetings or other activities requires explicit approval of your CC.

39-1 is your guide.  If it doesn't say you can, you can't.

When you're performing as a mission Observer, that's a CAP activity.

You can wear your boots wherever you want, but not the FDU with insignia.

[lordmonar]

If it is a "CAP" FDU then no.   If it is just a plain ole NOMEX flight suit the it is not a player.   The question is what makes a NOMEX flight suit a FDU. 

[DoubleSecret]

If it is a "CAP" FDU then no.   If it is just a plain is nonexistent flight suit the it is not a player.   The question is what makes a nonexistent flight suit a FDU.

I've seen non-officers on USAF incentive flights (Airman of the Galaxy, etc.) who had tape covering the grade insignia on borrowed officers' flight suits.  Remove velcroed insignia, cover the grade insignia with tape (which couldn't be appreciably more flammable than the plastic-encased rank), go play birdman.  That plus changing into/out of flight gear at the facility = minimal chance of drama.

[srosenberg]

Great.. I think that I got my answer.  I do find it odd that training (flight hours of any kind that does benefit CAP) is not included in the list, but that is just me.   Looks like I will have to hit Ebay and put together a non-CAP flight suit. Thanks for all the discussion.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Nothing odd about it. The benefit is for you, not CAP.

[Eclipse]

I do find it odd that training (flight hours of any kind that does benefit CAP) is not included in the list, but that is just me.

You find it odd that an activity which is strictly prohibited without NHQ explicit approval during CAP time is
OK to perform on your own time in uniform?

[srosenberg]

What is strictly prohibited about CFI flight training?  Once more... why isn't that encouraged for seniors as part of Aerospace Education and Emergency Services?  I am in the process of seeking flight training scholarships from AOPA and EAA.  I would like to think that should I be awarded one that I might be able to receive it in uniform as this is an event that would reflect well upon the uniform.  Not a CAP sponsored activity, but there is pride in our organization that should be shown. 

Let's take an even bigger picture of prohibited activities.  We have a fleet of CAP aircraft that each month every Wing pushes down to their squadrons the need to fly.  Either the aircraft get the hours in, or they cannot be justified to be kept in cognizance. CAP does not provide flight training to pilot newcomers like me without a private pilot license.  I get that.   There is a degree of difficulty in attempting and achieving Mission Pilot in CAP if you are not already a pilot. Cadets get some training opportunities then they leave and go to college or do whatever it is that they choose to do in adulthood. Someone like me who will stick around and do the ES mission (that I am currently doing) does not get the time of day in terms of pilot training.  Pilot Training for Seniors, as prohibited as it may be in CAP, is only so because we (the CAP organization) choose it to be so. There is no reason why some kind of assistance should not be offered in this area for those who prove to be dedicated to the CAP ES mission. One would think that such training would put additional needed hours on aircraft. Look at industry trends for private pilot ticket holders.  They are on the decline. Aviation fuel is expensive.  At what point does it impact our mission? 

I am not saying that we should train those that just show up.  There is a disconnect from Mission Observer to Mission Pilot where one miracle happens.  Many pilots I know tell me that the best Mission Observers are those who want to be pilots or are pilots. For me to get from here to there, I have to do it by myself, and then come back and plug away at 200 more hours. There should be a path from one to the other if for no other reason - this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlDWCDnXZ2k) or any other reason the pilot becomes incapacitated.  Should the pilot be incapacitated, it is the Mission Observer will will be PIC, and hopefully the Scanner has taken First Aid to help the pilot from the back seat. Should this not happen, we lose all three aircrew.  (I received my safety chops on the maintenance side of Naval Aviation on the flight deck.)

That's my vent, my beef and my 2 cents.  I have a significant love for the CAP mission and what we do.  I proudly wear the uniform.  You can't blame me for wanting to wear it during my flight training.

[Eclipse]

What is strictly prohibited about CFI flight training?

CAP members are prohibited from receiving initial pilot training in CAP aircraft (or as a CAP mission) without
explicit approval of NHQ, and then only when there are no local flight schools available - one reason indicated is
that CAP does not want to be viewed as competing with those schools (an issue which comes up regularly in
regards to cadet flight training).

You are wrapping up a lot of unrelated issues into your desire to wear a CAP uniform during a non CAP activity.

Your question was "can I" the answer is "no".  Why is because NHQ has said "no".

There is a disconnect from Mission Observer to Mission Pilot where one miracle happens.
Many pilots I know tell me that the best Mission Observers are those who want to be pilots or are pilots.

Yes, many pilots say that.
Many who have had to deal with Observers who are also pilots and try to act as co-pilots disagree.
The "safety pilot / co-pilot" mentality causes a lot more issues then it has ever fixed.

[Live2Learn]

Srosberg, your point on the need for the right seater to have the ability to make a survivable landing is good.  I haven't heard of any CAP Wings or other units that have sponsored a 'pinch hitter' course which would explicitly target developing basic aircraft and landing skills.  That might be a good topic to discuss with the Wing DO and ES Officer.

[Eclipse]

Srosberg, your point on the need for the right seater to have the ability to make a survivable landing is good.  I haven't heard of any CAP Wings or other units that have sponsored a 'pinch hitter' course which would explicitly target developing basic aircraft and landing skills.  That might be a good topic to discuss with the Wing DO and ES Officer.

CAP has an official "Air Crew Emergency Training (ACET)" program which can be found in the LMS and is
available to instructor pilots so inclined.

http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?new_online_air_crew_emergency_training_course_available_through_eservices&show=news&newsID=15052

[Live2Learn]

Srosberg, your point on the need for the right seater to have the ability to make a survivable landing is good.  I haven't heard of any CAP Wings or other units that have sponsored a 'pinch hitter' course which would explicitly target developing basic aircraft and landing skills.  That might be a good topic to discuss with the Wing DO and ES Officer.

CAP has an official "Air Crew Emergency Training (ACET)" program which can be found in the LMS and is
available to instructor pilots so inclined.

http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays-features/?new_online_air_crew_emergency_training_course_available_through_eservices&show=news&newsID=15052

I'm aware of the program, but this is the first time I've ever seen a screen shot of what it might look like.  Even when I was Squadron Commander I didn't have access to review it because I'm not an active CFI.  Thanks for posting.  It looks like a good approximation of the "Pinch Hitter" program. 

I've set up several "PH" events for the flying companions of pilots in other organizations.  The results were impressive, and suggest an organized approach to getting MS and MO through a similar program would be worthwhile.

[srosenberg]

Catching up with several points made here.

I am aware of the ACET Program, and by aware it means that I have heard about it. What I had heard is that it was not widespread. I will continue to investigate.

Pinch hitter is a term that I would not use.  My belief is that anyone who sits right seat should be under the impression that they should train themselves to save their own lives (and thereby the lives of those in the aircraft) should something unfortunate happen to the pilot. I work with my pilots to learn what they know. This may seem contrary to NHQ policy on flight training, and I really don't care. NHQ and the competing Flight Schools are not in the aircraft with me.  I come from the safety upbringing of the maintenance side of Naval Aviation where what you don't know can get you killed and kill others.  I am not going to let poor CAP policy that is directed by competing Flight Schools dictate the course of events during an air emergency that I am involved in. Instead.. I am going to learn to fly.. with or without the help or guidance of CAP policy. That is just me though.  How many Mission Observers do we have?

The point that I was making was that any flight training that I do outside of a CAP aircraft, CAP sanction, or CAP instruction, does benefit CAP as training goes and therefore one could argue the relevance of how CAP FSU's could be worn.  The CAP policy only says that CAP itself cannot provide the training.  There was someone who chimed in that I was the only one getting the benefit.  I disagree.  CAP benefits through increased competency (that they do not presently provide a training regimen for within their existing policy) that leads to future flight proficiency of a CAP Mission Pilot.  This benefits the future of supporting the CAP ES Mission and increased Squadron and therefore Wing mission capability. Presently, we expect our new pilots to show up with skills in hand and make little effort toward those who cannot do that.  If we are not supporting our future, what the heck are we doing?  I currently volunteer in an CAP ES aircrew role on a very long road to Mission Pilot... how does my outside flight training not benefit CAP? Why should I buy a second flight suit for something that clearly does benefit CAP, especially when the wearing of uniforms in the context of outside training is not clearly documented within CAP policy?  The best advice I received here was to have the use of the uniform sanctioned by my Squadron Commander during my training.

Yes, I find this training policy odd in an organization that has a fleet of aircraft, safety programs, aircrew qualification programs, hazard reporting, etc, etc.  The pilot training prohibition policy is poor policy that protects the flight schools and leaves CAP vulnerable to losing a three member aircrew when the flight may had otherwise been saved by a Mission Observer supported by ongoing training.  Nobody wants to talk about this, but I will leave you talking about it in terms of risk - probability and impact.  The probability of pilot incapacitation is likely low, and at best medium.  However, in the video we saw a "known unknown", a bird strike, could easily make it a reality. Then there are medical problems such as a pilot's new misunderstood sensitivity to hypoxia at a lower altitude, or stroke, heart problems, etc. As a persistent threat to all pilots, how often do these kinds of things happen?  The impact is obviously high - partial to total crew loss.  This risk has always been mitigated by training.  Presently, there is not as much of a requirement that a Mission Observer successfully complete Microsoft Flight Simulator landings to have a fair shot at lining up for a runway approach.  There is also no requirement that the Mission Scanner complete first aid training - the only person in a position to help the pilot if this risk were to be recognized as an issue.

The use of the flight suit is not to impress...  it is safety gear.  As a new pilot soon to fly solo... a simple stall on landing can tumble a plane and set it on fire. I don't intend on doing this, and I hope to be a competent enough pilot so that this does not happen.  However, if this should happen, or if the aircraft were to somehow spontaneously combust, there is a significant difference between wearing Nomex and the usual clothing I see GA pilots wearing. I kind of cringe at those pilots who fly in the CAP Polo Uniform - again, part of a Naval Aviation safety upbringing. Some might forget that the wings above us in the cockpit are also fuel tanks.  The attitude that Nomex is not required in GA is likely coming from a competent pilot with many hours of flying. (my guess)  No disrespect to his opinion, this isn't the same thing as my situation of being a new pilot. This said, if I were involved in an aircraft fire, I would prefer that I don't have hot melted plastic dripping into my burns from my choice of clothing that day.  The difference is a burn that can heal, and a burn that permanently disfigures.  The nay-sayers here can have their attitude about safety and uniform wear.... I have my own.  In these terms, a couple of patches and rank insignia become a relatively unimportant point in the grand scheme of things, however a reasonable point to be made, and asked in terms of what the Uniform Manual actually says.

I have disagreement that if something is not mentioned in the Uniform Manual or the regs that it is automatic that one can't do it. NHQ policy exists only as far as it is documented.  If it is documented that you can or can't do something, you can or can't as documented.  If it is not documented, it means that NHQ has likely not placed enough thought into the matter to document it, and therefore, the question should be asked. We should not assume that the regs hold all the knowledge, or all relevant discussion points have been considered, or the regs contain safe and sound policy written in stone by smart people which should be followed accordingly. While working in a squadron maintenance QA position in the Navy, it was often my job to improve existing NAVAIR policy by offering feedback and recommendations based on the ground truth.  CAP policy should not be any different in this capacity, and positive change begins with asking good questions, and scrutinizing the applicability of existing policy.

Throughout this, the solution on the original topic that I gleaned was to raise the question with my Squadron Commander so that my concern may be escalated, discussed, and weighed - something I will do after we get back from the holiday.

Thank you all for your input - and have a happy and safe New Year!

[jeders]

I have disagreement that if something is not mentioned in the Uniform Manual or the regs that it is automatic that one can't do it.

Disagree all you want, it doesn't change the fact that there is a great big disclaimer in 39-1 that specifically says anything not authorized by that manual is prohibited. So that means that your original question of wearing a CAP uniform during a non-CAP event is specifically prohibited; end of story.

The use of the flight suit is not to impress...  it is safety gear.

I have to throw the BS flag on this one UNLESS you also plan on wearing a helmet whenever you fly. If you go down on final, the odds are that blunt force trauma to the head will kill or incapacitate you long before the fire ever becomes an issue. The only time that the Nomex really becomes a safety item is if there is a fire in the cockpit during flight. So, if you're going to claim the safety card, then I expect to see you wearing a helmet.

The point that I was making was that any flight training that I do outside of a CAP aircraft, CAP sanction, or CAP instruction, does benefit CAP

Not necessarily. If you get that outside training and then punch out of CAP before you get a chance to use it, CAP received absolutely no benefit. I know it's nice to think that the other training we all do away from CAP is of benefit to CAP (and there fore we should get some additional benefit), the simple fact of the matter is that the only person who benefits is the individual receiving the training.

As for the training policy, a number of us find it odd, but it is what it is; and so you have two options. Option one is salute and execute; if you are former military, I'm sure you're familiar with this option. The second is to write up a proposal for the Senior Advisory Group and the Board of Governors describing exactly why it is important for CAP to allow pilot training to senior members from initial flight training through higher level certificates. Be sure to include who is going to pay for what, how it's not going to hurt local flight schools and FBOs (whom many CAP units rely on for low cost or free hangar space), and how you're going to come up with instructor pilots willing to provide hundreds of hours of free instruction. However, at no time is wearing a CAP uniform during non-CAP training an option.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I am going to learn to fly.. with or without the help or guidance of CAP policy.

Good on you. Has nothing to do with CAP.

The point that I was making was that any flight training that I do outside of a CAP aircraft, CAP sanction, or CAP instruction, does benefit CAP as training goes and therefore one could argue the relevance of how CAP FSU's could be worn.

No, it benefits you, not CAP. We have specific rules on wear for a reason. Instances like this are probably part of that reason.

The CAP policy only says that CAP itself cannot provide the training.  There was someone who chimed in that I was the only one getting the benefit.  I disagree.  CAP benefits through increased competency (that they do not presently provide a training regimen for within their existing policy) that leads to future flight proficiency of a CAP Mission Pilot.

Are you the observer or the pilot? Two different things. Pilots can do proficiency flights in CAP aircraft. Observers, are not pilots.

This benefits the future of supporting the CAP ES Mission and increased Squadron and therefore Wing mission capability. Presently, we expect our new pilots to show up with skills in hand and make little effort toward those who cannot do that.

How long have you been in CAP? I've never had interest in Aircrew, but I can call BS on this all day long. I've yet to see someone show up at a CAP meeting, and be a Mission Pilot the following month.

If we are not supporting our future, what the heck are we doing?  I currently volunteer in an CAP ES aircrew role on a very long road to Mission Pilot... how does my outside flight training not benefit CAP?

Because CAP has certain requirements to be a pilot. Once you have those, welcome to the table. Until then, you're no more an asset in the cockpit (in terms of flying the plane) than the scanner. There's plenty of people who have a PPL and are not a good fit for CAP and its way of doing things.

Why should I buy a second flight suit for something that clearly does benefit CAP, especially when the wearing of uniforms in the context of outside training is not clearly documented within CAP policy?

Uniform wear is quite clearly documented. Check out 39-1, Pages 9-10.

The best advice I received here was to have the use of the uniform sanctioned by my Squadron Commander during my training.

Not really. That policy is for special events, not flight training. Generally, if it has something to do with CAP, or can be of benefit to represent CAP (and no, you getting flight training is not something to do with CAP), but is not an organized CAP event, you check with the CC and go from there. Can you image the headlines if something bad happens during your training? How does that bring credit upon CAP?

Yes, I find this training policy odd in an organization that has a fleet of aircraft, safety programs, aircrew qualification programs, hazard reporting, etc, etc.

Goes to show that you don't understand the relationship CAP has with FBOs. We get a lot of goodwill from those greedy flight training people. If we were stepping on their toes with taking business from them, they'd be lobbying airport managers to get rid of CAP. You also don't seem to factor in corporate insurance rates on our fleet. Chances of a new guy denting the plane (or worse) are SIGNIFICANTLY higher than someone who has XXXX flight hours, which is probably why we have certain thresholds to being O-Flight Pilots, Transport Pilots, Mission Pilots, etc. 

The pilot training prohibition policy is poor policy that protects the flight schools and leaves CAP vulnerable to losing a three member aircrew when the flight may had otherwise been saved by a Mission Observer supported by ongoing training.  Nobody wants to talk about this, but I will leave you talking about it in terms of risk - probability and impact.

If you think your pilot is one heartbeat away from a nosedive, that's when you call a safety stop, and refuse to fly with them.

The probability of pilot incapacitation is likely low, and at best medium.

Medium? Try extremely low.

However, in the video we saw a "known unknown", a bird strike, could easily make it a reality. Then there are medical problems such as a pilot's new misunderstood sensitivity to hypoxia at a lower altitude, or stroke, heart problems, etc. As a persistent threat to all pilots, how often do these kinds of things happen?  The impact is obviously high - partial to total crew loss.  This risk has always been mitigated by training.  Presently, there is not as much of a requirement that a Mission Observer successfully complete Microsoft Flight Simulator landings to have a fair shot at lining up for a runway approach.  There is also no requirement that the Mission Scanner complete first aid training - the only person in a position to help the pilot if this risk were to be recognized as an issue.

How in the world will first aid in a cramped plane help a pilot in trouble? If the pilot is feeling sick, he needs to put the bird down asap. You're so off into the deep end of "what if" that at this point, why not just ground the fleet, and keep it on the ground. For that matter, lets lock up all the corporate vans, because if the driver with 15 cadets has a stroke, there's not even a second set of pedals for the front passanger!

The use of the flight suit is not to impress...  it is safety gear.  As a new pilot soon to fly solo... a simple stall on landing can tumble a plane and set it on fire. I don't intend on doing this, and I hope to be a competent enough pilot so that this does not happen.  However, if this should happen, or if the aircraft were to somehow spontaneously combust, there is a significant difference between wearing Nomex and the usual clothing I see GA pilots wearing.

Great, we'll be able to ID your body based on your torso birth marks! The Nomex argument is always silly in GA terms, because people will wear boots or shoes that don't cut it, have no gloves, and no helmet. We'll just have a midriff open casket.

The attitude that Nomex is not required in GA is likely coming from a competent pilot with many hours of flying. (my guess)

Yea, I flew a few weeks back internationally, and the pilot and co-pilot were decked out in Nomex, and had parachutes to boot.

This said, if I were involved in an aircraft fire, I would prefer that I don't have hot melted plastic dripping into my burns from my choice of clothing that day.  The difference is a burn that can heal, and a burn that permanently disfigures.  The nay-sayers here can have their attitude about safety and uniform wear.... I have my own.

Which brand of gloves and Helmet will you be using?

  In these terms, a couple of patches and rank insignia become a relatively unimportant point in the grand scheme of things, however a reasonable point to be made, and asked in terms of what the Uniform Manual actually says.

Perhaps....actually reading the uniform manual?

94 CAPM 39-1 26 JUNE 2014
CHAPTER 8 – FLIGHT DUTY UNIFORMS
8.1. USAF-style and Corporate-style Flight Duty Uniform (FDU) Guidance
8.1.1. Authorized FDU.
8.1.1.1. The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional
clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation,
preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The
FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical
rating as defined by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and
Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot,
observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission
qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on
days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and
CFDU wear is appropriate.

If it's that important, get a GA Flight bag, and get one for CAP.

I have disagreement that if something is not mentioned in the Uniform Manual or the regs that it is automatic that one can't do it.

That's exactly what the uniform manual says. If it's not in there, it's not allowed.

1.1.2. Oversight.
1.1.2.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication
is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as
prescribed within. Variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication 6 CAPM 39-1 26 JUNE 2014
are not authorized for wear with uniforms. Local commanders do not have the authority to waive
grooming and appearance standards.