Blue Van Heusen Aviator Shirt and Accessories

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

SarDragon: I think Major Carrales' usage of the word style is important.  I can go to my local Army/Navy and get various shades of blue, green, tan and black web belts - none of which are official issue, though they are in that style.  I personally would support a black web belt with silver buckle.  I can get one of those for under $10 at the Army/Navy.  But also...we are authorised to wear the blue AF tie with the G/W...mixing of civilian/military?

Major C: I fully support what you say about one style/one shade.  I personally would favour something like law enforcement wears, or Propper tactical/BDU style, for quality and consistency reasons if nothing else.  But I see no reason why that would preclude a blue, civilian aviator shirt.  One would have to be quite thick to mistake that, badged properly as CAP, for the AF, which does not wear grey trousers, nameplates, or shoulder marks.  And, as I have stated before, the Air Force does not own the copyright on every last shade of blue in the book.

[Major Carrales]

Belts - now we're mixing AF uniform parts with civilian clothes. Before the uni reg defined a specific belt to be worn, folks used to wear the blue web belt with their aviator combination. The AF folks aren't allowed to wear their web belts with civilian clothes, and since our corporate uniforms are classed as such, we can't do it either.

They make web belts in other colors and the USAF does not have a monopoly on nickel plated belt buckles with a slide, I would suggest the gray belt with nickel plated buckle...


http://www.amazon.com/CANVAS-ADJUSTABLE-WEB-BELTS-BLACK/dp/B001L04KM2

[Grumpy]

Why not just a plain black leather belt with a simple silver buckle?  You can pick them up anywhere.

[Major Carrales]

Why not just a plain black leather belt with a simple silver buckle?  You can pick them up anywhere.

Because they vary too much in style to be uniform items.  Will it be a weave belt or solid?  With a pattern or with out?  A true buckle or one more reminiscent of what Puritans supposedly wore on their shoes?

The web belt would be standard as would the belt buckle this way.   

These are all opinions, of course.  $6.95 is not a bad price for a belt versus $19.99 - 24.99 for this...

http://zoom.jcpenney.com/is/image/0900631b81682c1eM.tif?wid=180&hei=180&op_usm=1.5,.8,0,0&resmode=sharp

[SarDragon]

SarDragon: I think Major Carrales' usage of the word style is important.  I can go to my local Army/Navy and get various shades of blue, green, tan and black web belts - none of which are official issue, though they are in that style.  I personally would support a black web belt with silver buckle.  I can get one of those for under $10 at the Army/Navy.  But also...we are authorised to wear the blue AF tie with the G/W...mixing of civilian/military?

In keeping with the oft made fun of policy of "You can't do it unless we say so," some uniform items of general nature are permitted for civilian wear. Included are underwear, socks, gloves, and specified outerwear, since there is no specification, other than color. Ties aren't mentioned at all in that vein. Since it's specified by our uni reg, I guess the AF said it's OK.

Here are some excerpts from the AF uni reg regarding uniform items and civvies [comments in brackets]:

Wearing the Uniform
Do not wear: in civilian attire. For example: grade insignia, cap devices, badges and other U.S. or Air Force insignia, distinctive buttons, etc.

Officers and Enlisted: Do not wear or mix unique uniform items with civilian clothes. These items are those unique to the uniform. They include grade insignia, cap devices, badges and other U. S. or Air Force insignia, such as items with the "Wing and Star" design, and so forth. Exception: Tie tacs and lapel pins when wearing business attire authorized. [Is the tie unique? I think the belt and buckle qualify. YMMV.]

Lightweight Blue Jacket.
2. May be worn with civilian clothes when insignia is removed.
3. AF Symbol is optional. May be embroidered on the left side at members cost and is not authorized to be worn with civilian clothes.

Outer Garments
Worn outdoors only, removed in an office environment, except as noted below. Use good judgment in choosing appropriate garments for wear based on weather conditions and duties. May wear with civilian clothes if grade insignia is removed.

Authorized Individuals
Leather A-2 flying jacket with flight suit, hospital whites, or service uniforms (not service dress uniform). Do not wear with civilian clothes.
*****

Black belt with silver buckle? Now we're getting into Navy territory. Just a thought.

[Mustang]

I personally would support a black web belt with silver buckle.  I can get one of those for under $10 at the Army/Navy.

Black belt with silver buckle? Now we're getting into Navy territory. Just a thought.

I've worn Navy-issue (and Vanguard-produced, fyi) black web belts with silver chrome buckle/tip with the aviator combination since its inception. It's the only way to go, IMHO.  Also far prefer a black tie with this uniform than the USAF-issue blue.

[flyboy53]

I don't disagree, it just is what it is...

How would we know unless we make such a proposal?

Also, there would be no AF uniform items used, which I think was at least part of the aggro with the CSU.

Or, if not a light blue shirt, what about a dark(er) blue one, similar to the BBDU?

Believe it or not, a dark blue shirt like that with matching pants was once an Air Force uniform. It was worn by SP, SAC Elite Guard, AF Academy cadets and generally marked those of us coming back from overseas because toward the end of it's use, BXs and military clothing sales in Alaska, Korea and Germany were the only places you could still get the shirts.

It was my all-time favorite unifrom, one that I really miss, so military and professional-looking and the last one that military creases were allowed on.

Maybe, that would be a cool idea.

[BradM]

I like the idea of the white aviator shirt with gray pants and a white hat. Like the West Point cadets. Change the white hat to have a silver band and the Civil Air Patrol cap emblem I also like the black stripe on the gray pants.

This photo below shows a black leather belt. Person on the right side of photo.

[RVT]

Anyway, General Courter has said that the shade of grey in the trousers needs to be standardised

This is the easiest solution of all.  Standardize "Dickies Charcoal".  Available nationwide and online.  Theres even multiple versions with extra pockets & reinforcements that could be used with polo shirts, while being the same color & fabric.

A uniform issue solved without changing the regulations.  How about that.    Just a policy letter from national to the effect of "medium gray means this"

I also like the black stripe on the gray pants.

Problem there is you now have a custom made item instead of off the shelf clothing, with a VAST increase in cost.

But also...we are authorised to wear the blue AF tie with the G/W...mixing of civilian/military?

You can wear the blue USAF tie and the USAF cardigan sweater over the G/W, both specifically authorized in 39-1.  I never understood that.

[SarDragon]

Believe it or not, a dark blue shirt like that with matching pants was once an Air Force uniform. It was worn by SP, SAC Elite Guard, AF Academy cadets and generally marked those of us coming back from overseas because toward the end of it's use, BXs and military clothing sales in Alaska, Korea and Germany were the only places you could still get the shirts.

It was my all-time favorite unifrom, one that I really miss, so military and professional-looking and the last one that military creases were allowed on.

Maybe, that would be a cool idea.

Oh,that was a fave of mine, also. It was an authorized CAP combination,a nd i wore it whwnever I could. I also like the Navy equivalent in "very, very dark Navy blue".

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I remember seeing that dark-blue order of dress in old photos.

However, I don't believe the USAF uses it anymore, though the USCG has something similar.

That's why I propose civilian cut and colour that are commercially available...so that it cannot be confused with what the USAF wears, unless you're quite thick.

[arajca]

Anyway, General Courter has said that the shade of grey in the trousers needs to be standardised

This is the easiest solution of all.  Standardize "Dickies Charcoal".  Available nationwide and online.  Theres even multiple versions with extra pockets & reinforcements that could be used with polo shirts, while being the same color & fabric.

A uniform issue solved without changing the regulations.  How about that.    Just a policy letter from national to the effect of "medium gray means this"

Choosing a particular manufacturer/brand for clothing causes problems for organzations and companies. Now standardizing on a particular color/style is fine. Charcoal Gray, 50/50 poly/wool blend, slant front pockets, slit rear pockets (m), no rear pockets (f), 1.75" belt loops works. Dickies Charcoal Gray trousers or similar works. Dickies Charcoal Gray trousers doesn't.

On trademaked/copyrighted items like CAP insignia, this does not apply.

[RVT]

Dickies Charcoal Gray trousers or similar works. Dickies Charcoal Gray trousers doesn't.

I fully agree.  Nobody cares who makes it, we all just want the colors to match.  If you standardize dickies charcoal and someone shows up in pants that are that color and made by someone else. nobody will notice, let alone care.  I won't.

Outside of specifying a pantone shade the best option is to chose a reference that is commonly available and well known.  You don't need to buy Dickies charcoal - just go to a store, look at it and buy whatever you want that matches that color.

I really hate to suggest this - but Vanguard could start carrying something.  that would set a standard.

[RADIOMAN015]

I personally like the idea of the blue shirt & dark blue pants.  IF it's a different color than the AF blues, I don't see this as an issue.   The problem again with the grey is that in low light conditions it is very difficult to differentiate from other military members.   Maybe a brighter color (I think red, but it could be something else) for name tags and epaulet shoulder sleeves would work.

HOWEVER, again the cost to the membership on any change is very important in my opinion, and likely a 3 year position period would be fair.

Again also this would be for ALL senior adult members.  NO senior member would be allowed to wear ANY USAF type blue uniform.
RM   

[RVT]

Again also this would be for ALL senior adult members.  NO senior member would be allowed to wear ANY USAF type blue uniform.

Go join the US Ranger Corps

[jimmydeanno]

Believe it or not, a dark blue shirt like that with matching pants was once an Air Force uniform. It was worn by SP, SAC Elite Guard, AF Academy cadets and generally marked those of us coming back from overseas because toward the end of it's use, BXs and military clothing sales in Alaska, Korea and Germany were the only places you could still get the shirts.

It was my all-time favorite unifrom, one that I really miss, so military and professional-looking and the last one that military creases were allowed on.

I'm pretty sure that they show that uniform in Iron Eagle, when Doug Masters excessively speeds through the gate...you can also see our plastic encased grade insignia and ultramarine blue nametapes in the movie.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Again also this would be for ALL senior adult members.  NO senior member would be allowed to wear ANY USAF type blue uniform.
RM

If you have such a bee in your bonnet about the AF-type uniform, take it up the chain.

My proposal was meant to provide some colour to a colourless uniform with minimum-change.

It was not meant to open a can of worms about getting rid of the AF-type uniform.

[RADIOMAN015]

Again also this would be for ALL senior adult members.  NO senior member would be allowed to wear ANY USAF type blue uniform.
RM

If you have such a bee in your bonnet about the AF-type uniform, take it up the chain.

My proposal was meant to provide some colour to a colourless uniform with minimum-change.

It was not meant to open a can of worms about getting rid of the AF-type uniform.

Your proposals seem to want to add costs for those who choose to wear the non AF type uniforms by adding hats, coats, etc, etc, etc,. 

I'm perfectly happy wearing my blue golf shirt (short sleeve & long sleeve) to most CAP activities, and rarely the aviator shirt, & and sometimes the blue BDU's.
HOWEVER, If we are to tinker with uniforms WHY NOT put ALL senior members in the same uniforms (cadets would be unaffected as long as USAF provides free uniforms), just for the sake of organizational consistency, and the appropriate public relations aspects of this?
Again I'm not very motivated to go out and buy ANY more CAP uniforms than what I already have BUT with a transition period involving ALL senior members I could get motivated. 
RM

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Your proposals seem to want to add costs for those who choose to wear the non AF type uniforms by adding hats, coats, etc, etc, etc,. 

And your proposals seem to want to add costs for those who choose to wear the AF style uniforms, and to remove the affiliation of CAP with USAF.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Your proposals seem to want to add costs for those who choose to wear the non AF type uniforms by adding hats, coats, etc, etc, etc,. 

I'm perfectly happy wearing my blue golf shirt (short sleeve & long sleeve) to most CAP activities, and rarely the aviator shirt, & and sometimes the blue BDU's.

Your position on getting CAP into golf/polo shirts and red insignia is well known.

If you can find where I said anything about doing anything with "hats, coats, etc, etc, etc," please do so.

I made one proposal on this subject: exchanging the white shirt for blue on the G/W uniforms, and standardising the grey trousers, which would comply with a mandate from General Courter.

The blue VH shirt is $19.95 average on most pilot shop websites.

I said nothing about the golf shirts, nor any kind of headgear or outergarments, other than a civilian pullover sweater.  In fact, the wear of the blue flight jacket/black A-2 as currently authorised would not change.  I personally would favour a dark-blue, black or grey flight cap with blue piping, but that's another matter entirely as one would have to be designed.