Remember that one uniform idea?

Started by Stonewall, August 09, 2020, 06:35:13 PM

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etodd

Quote from: Spam on August 26, 2020, 10:11:37 PMNo activities, obsolete unavailable uniforms... why stay in, again?

So, NHQ had better think more quickly. The problem is already on us, not five years away.


Bigger emphasis on aerospace ... and start easing out of outdoor ground team work for Cadets. Eliminate a huge expense with outdoor uniforms and all the gear in backpack.

Yeah, I know .... many will not like it. But SAR is dwindling, unless you are in a very few specific areas, or are part of the Cell Phone Forensics Team.

"Encampments" could be in a computer room at the local library.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

PHall

Quote from: etodd on August 27, 2020, 12:45:36 AM
Quote from: Spam on August 26, 2020, 10:11:37 PMNo activities, obsolete unavailable uniforms... why stay in, again?

So, NHQ had better think more quickly. The problem is already on us, not five years away.


Bigger emphasis on aerospace ... and start easing out of outdoor ground team work for Cadets. Eliminate a huge expense with outdoor uniforms and all the gear in backpack.

Yeah, I know .... many will not like it. But SAR is dwindling, unless you are in a very few specific areas, or are part of the Cell Phone Forensics Team.

"Encampments" could be in a computer room at the local library.

How about reviewing ALL of the requirements that Encampments have to accomplish and then tell us how you're going to do it virtually in that computer room. It's all in CAP Pamphlet 60-70 Encampment Guide.
There's over 40 contact hours of stuff that's required to earn encampment credit.

ironputts

Temporary break in discussion

I always enjoyed a good uniform discussion. I just got an ABU and no where to go. Right now my only uniform is the polo shirt and pants during virtual training sessions.

Please continue discussion
Greg Putnam, Lt. Col., CAP

Capt Thompson

Quote from: etodd on August 27, 2020, 12:45:36 AM
Quote from: Spam on August 26, 2020, 10:11:37 PMNo activities, obsolete unavailable uniforms... why stay in, again?

So, NHQ had better think more quickly. The problem is already on us, not five years away.


Bigger emphasis on aerospace ... and start easing out of outdoor ground team work for Cadets. Eliminate a huge expense with outdoor uniforms and all the gear in backpack.

Yeah, I know .... many will not like it. But SAR is dwindling, unless you are in a very few specific areas, or are part of the Cell Phone Forensics Team.
If we eliminate the ES mission for Cadets, we would say goodbye to 75% of my Cadets. That would eliminate many of the uniform issues, as we wouldn't have many Cadets to worry about getting uniforms for.

A few months ago you were all about expanding ES and getting Cadets involved in drones. Most drone teams will deploy as part of Ground Teams, so scaling back on ES isn't going to help the drone program any, and that program is part of the key to making ES relevant to the current climate IMO.

If we did scale back ES, that wouldn't eliminate the need for a field uniform. Are we shooting off rockets in blues? Climbing all over a dirty C-172 during preflight in blues? A field uniform for Cadets is still a necessity.

Quote"Encampments" could be in a computer room at the local library.
How many Cadets would want to spend a week in a library on Zoom? Where are you going to find a library open right about now? How do you do PT in the computer room of a library? Is the library large enough for a full scale pass in review? I have so many questions.....

Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

etodd

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMA few months ago you were all about expanding ES and getting Cadets involved in drones. Most drone teams will deploy as part of Ground Teams, so scaling back on ES isn't going to help the drone program any, and that program is part of the key to making ES relevant to the current climate IMO.

Not expecting much SAR with drones. More toward disaster photos. Yes, I'm in polo.

QuoteClimbing all over a dirty C-172 during preflight in blues?

I do it in my polo all the time.

QuoteHow do you do PT in the computer room of a library?


PT?  These kids are getting excited about a possible future Space Force Aux, where everything will be sitting in front of a computer.

Think long term.  Our days of outdoor roughing it are coming to a close. (JMHO)
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

PHall

Yep, still need PT. We're trying to get them to live a healthy lifestyle.

Fubar

NHQ threw out the idea during the national conference of moving encampment classroom sessions online to reduce the amount of time the cadets are together for encampment.

Capt Thompson

Quote from: PHall on August 27, 2020, 03:29:17 PMYep, still need PT. We're trying to get them to live a healthy lifestyle.
This, there won't be a lot of new recruits to Space Force pushing 300 pounds, fitness is still an important factor for current and future warfighters, and will continue to be an important factor for Cadets. We even go over the importance of physical health and fitness during o-flights, as pilots do more than just sit in a seat and steer.

Quote from: etodd on August 27, 2020, 02:46:27 PMNot expecting much SAR with drones. More toward disaster photos. Yes, I'm in polo.
And DR on the ground is handled by ground teams comprised of both Cadets and Seniors, who will need a field uniform.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

Eclipse

Quote from: Fubar on August 27, 2020, 03:36:30 PMNHQ threw out the idea during the national conference of moving encampment classroom sessions online to reduce the amount of time the cadets are together for encampment.

Hopefully by "thrown out" you mean discarded.

Doing that would not only >not< reduce the risk of infection, but it would also essentially
negate the point of the activity.  Turning it into an exercise of marching, eating, and sleeping,
with no educational component.

You probably couldn't do most of the TLPs or PT either.

Believe me, I'm the first person who wants to fix the way encampments are structured and presented - the
"tests" for example, need to just...go...and several classes are just time-fillers, but most of them present
important information about teamwork and leadership, and evolution of the activity is built around
a cadets seeing the academic play out in the laboratory of the activity, often to great effect.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 04:48:33 PMAnd DR on the ground is handled by ground teams comprised of both Cadets and Seniors, who will need a field uniform.

"DR on the ground."
That's actually funny right there.


"That Others May Zoom"

Spam

Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 05:05:35 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 04:48:33 PMAnd DR on the ground is handled by ground teams comprised of both Cadets and Seniors, who will need a field uniform.

"DR on the ground."
That's actually funny right there.



I for one am grinning like a cat.  CAP ground teams have about zero use in DR these days, and I say that as a big GT advocate.

V/r
Spam

Capt Thompson

Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 05:05:35 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 04:48:33 PMAnd DR on the ground is handled by ground teams comprised of both Cadets and Seniors, who will need a field uniform.

"DR on the ground."
That's actually funny right there.


When's the last time a pilot sifted through rubble from the air? Agreed most DR nowadays is handled by AP and eventually UASMP types, but the last DR mission I went on involved several hours of cleanup on the ground.
Capt Matt Thompson
Deputy Commander for Cadets, Historian, Public Affairs Officer

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 1 OCT 00 (#11401)

TheSkyHornet

The phase-in of ABUs started with the Air Force in 2007. By 2011, everyone was wearing ABUs.

The phase-in of ABUs in CAP started in 2016. By 2021, woodland BDUs are to be a thing of the past.

That's a 4-year span from when the Air Force was fully implemented with the ABU to when CAP started the initial phase-in. That's 9 years since ABUs were first introduced into the fleet.

The Air Force started wearing OCPs in 2018. By this calculation, if we went with a similar timeline, CAP would not see OCPs until 2027, if history was to repeat itself.

The Sea Cadets started their phase-in of the NWU Type III (woodlands) in 2019. The rumor mill has it that AFJROTC will start phasing in OCPs in 2021.

Eclipse

#93
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 05:33:29 PMWhen's the last time a pilot sifted through rubble from the air? Agreed most DR nowadays is handled by AP and eventually UASMP types, but the last DR mission I went on involved several hours of cleanup on the ground.

CAP has no DR doctrine whatsoever.

By far the vast majority of "DR" is members, especially cadets, with a wet, or worse no, GES, handing out water. People who could not be bothered to spend time or money on equipment or training the rest of the year, but benefit from CAP's general "getinthegameitis" at the last minute.

Nothing CAP does in "DR" requires a field uniform, and 99.99999999% of the stuff CAP gets itself
involved in, and publishes as a "win" for the press, is stuff that could be done as a private
citizen, absent CAP's involvement, and would probably be better off handled that way.

You don't need a CAP ID card to work at a food pantry, etc.  You just go and offer to help.

"That Others May Zoom"

NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 06:29:35 PMYou don't need a CAP ID card to work at a food pantry, etc.  You just go and offer to help.

But how are you going to get the Disaster Relief Ribbon with silver 'V' device that way?!

Spam

Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 06:29:35 PM
Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 05:33:29 PMWhen's the last time a pilot sifted through rubble from the air? Agreed most DR nowadays is handled by AP and eventually UASMP types, but the last DR mission I went on involved several hours of cleanup on the ground.

CAP has no DR doctrine whatsoever.

By far the vast majority of "DR" is members, especially cadets, with a wet, or worse no, GES, handing out water. People who could not be bothered to spend time or money on equipment or training the rest of the year, but benefit from CAP's general "getinthegameitis" at the last minute.

Nothing CAP does in "DR" requires a field uniform, and 99.99999999% of the stuff CAP gets itself
involved in, and publishes as a "win" for the press, is stuff that could be done as a private
citizen, absent CAP's involvement, and would probably be better off handled that way.

You don't need a CAP ID card to work at a food pantry, etc.  You just go and offer to help.

Worse, most of the scratch mission taskings that we stupidly accept from customers to whom we've oversold our capabilities end up being borderline dangerous to our well intentioned members. At least, that was my experience from being an IC/GBD on several floods, blizzards, and hurricane DR missions. I personally had to yank well meaning CAP sand baggers back through waist deep Missouri River water at 0300 because the levee was failing and they were not following instructions to get back and not be drowned. I had to step in when we had members "clearing rubble" with a freakin chainsaw while standing on a forklift with no straps and no PPE (OSHA, turn thy gaze aside from South Georgia...). I had to stop CAP from sending out teams in a blizzard in 2WD, no chains, no snow tires, 12 pax vans where trucks were swerving off I-95 and killing people left and right (CTWG).

Been there since the 80s, earned the DR ribbon, and seen CAP barely avoid death and dismemberment due to lack of training and equipment compounded by lack of doctrine and over marketing. CAP should be an initial responder, not a cleanup phase rubble sifter, period. We should not be competing (ahem - federal?) with tree companies or cleanup firms, especially when the Asplundh company guys stare wide eyed at how we employ our minor cadets.

So no, (full circle), I don't see any DR justification for distinctive field uniforms, no. We don't need camo to support cosplay "because DR". Let's find some other rationalization, folks.

V/r
Spam

baronet68

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMIf we eliminate the ES mission for Cadets, we would say goodbye to 75% of my Cadets.

Your unit must be recruiting with an emphasis toward ES missions because your unit definitely doesn't match the national trend.

When completing online membership applications, cadet applicants are asked to select their top two choices from a list of six reasons to join CAP. 
Based on 47,253 responses:

Reasons Cadets Give for Joining CAP
Flying or learning about aviation62.8%
Developing leadership skills47.9%
Learning about the military30.5%
Search and Rescue23.9%
Serving the community16.0%
Making new friends14.2%



Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMAre we shooting off rockets in blues?

Sure, why not?  There's nothing particularly dirty or strenuous with model rocketry that would require a utility uniform.




Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMClimbing all over a dirty C-172 during preflight in blues?

Sure... just need to exercise a little extra caution but it's not such an onerous task to preflight or fuel up an aircraft while wearing blues.  In this photo I'm preflighting and fueling a C-182 in blues and my only precaution was to tuck my tie into my shirt in a circa 1950's style.




Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMA field uniform for Cadets is still a necessity.

I'd categorize them as a nice-to-have, but not a necessity.  While there is certainly recruitment value when it comes to utility uniforms (especially for cadets), they aren't the be-all and end-all of Civil Air Patrol.



I'm curious to hear from any of our "vintage" members who were cadets in the 50s and 60s.  Based on photos I've seen from that era, it looks like cadets back then did just about everything in their khakis.  Where khakis considered a utility uniform that could be used for dress, or was it a dress uniform that could be used for utility?
Michael Moore, Lt Col, CAP
National Recruiting & Retention Manager

Eclipse

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on August 27, 2020, 07:28:01 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 27, 2020, 06:29:35 PMYou don't need a CAP ID card to work at a food pantry, etc.  You just go and offer to help.

But how are you going to get the Disaster Relief Ribbon with silver 'V' device that way?!

Fair.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: Spam on August 27, 2020, 08:29:19 PMI had to step in when we had members "clearing rubble" with a freakin chainsaw while standing on a forklift with no straps and no PPE (OSHA, turn thy gaze aside from South Georgia...).

Heh - yeah.  Awesome pics!

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMA few months ago you were all about expanding ES and getting Cadets involved in drones. Most drone teams will deploy as part of Ground Teams, so scaling back on ES isn't going to help the drone program any,

A UAV operator has zero need of GT skills, nor should they be linked to, or deployed with, GTs. UDF at most.
2 guys with the UAV, that's all you need. They aren't going camping with the thing.

Quote from: Capt Thompson on August 27, 2020, 01:26:02 PMClimbing all over a dirty C-172 during preflight in blues?

Most GA commercial pilots fly in a uniform akin to CAP blues and do it in a white shirt,
and these days we don't have too many people fueling their own planes.  It happens, but
not much in the areas the FSM intended people to live.

"That Others May Zoom"