Crisis Service Ribbon

[PHall]

Yep, in theory you've earned this ribbon as soon as you show up in e-services. Just like the NDSM...

[Eclipse]

Yep, in theory you've earned this ribbon as soon as you show up in e-services. Just like the NDSM...

Same as the AW-FOUI.

[SarDragon]

Yep, in theory you've earned this ribbon as soon as you show up in e-services. Just like the NDSM...

Same as the AW-FOUI.

But not all of us are allowed to wear the AW-FOUI. "The AFOEA ribbon is authorized for wear only on the CAP Air Force style blue uniform combinations."

[etodd]

Am I reading this correctly?  Everyone who simply kept paying their dues the last couple years is entitled to a new participation ribbon called "Crisis Service Ribbon"?

[Eclipse]

But not all of us are allowed to wear the AW-FOUI. "The AFOEA ribbon is authorized for wear only on the CAP Air Force style blue uniform combinations."

Am I reading this correctly?  Everyone who simply kept paying their dues the last couple years is entitled to a new participation ribbon called "Crisis Service Ribbon"?

Both of these things are true.

[Shuman 14]

Not really the place, but I renew my objection to the denial of wearing US Armed Forces decorations on a CAP Corporate Uniform.

I know dozens of Law Enforcement, Fire Department and other Emergency Service organizations that allow the wear of Military Decorations on their uniforms.

I routinely participate in the Color Guard for my Local American Legion post and we wear military decorations on our uniforms. The same goes for the VWF, AMVETS, Catholic War Veterans, etc.

Each Branch has published regulations for wearing Military Decorations on civilian clothing.

The CAP prohibition is patently absurd.

It is also disrespectful to those Veterans within our ranks who are denied the opportunity to wear the decorations they earned in defense of our Great Nation.

End of rant. Now back to our regular programming.

[Luis R. Ramos]

 
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Bravo.

[Ned]

As we have discussed several times over the years, the prohibition of military ribbons on corporates is NOT a CAP decision.  I know; "I was in the room when it happened."

It was and is the opinion and decision of our AF colleagues.  I had multiple discussions with the AF JAG responsible for the opinion, and tried to show her why her opinion was not well reasoned.

I was insufficiently persuasive.

(Cue a repeat of the "but why does the AF control bling on a non-AF style corporate uniform in the first place" discussion.  Answer:  Because they do and always have.)

[N6RVT]

(Cue a repeat of the "but why does the AF control bling on a non-AF style corporate uniform in the first place" discussion.  Answer:  Because they do and always have.)

I have only been to one activity where uniform regs were actually enforced, and I never saw that IC again.  I have seen people doing online briefings in the blue & white uniform as recently as this year.  National recruiting videos show a pilot wearing a polo shirt with blue jeans.  I have been to meetings where there were 30+ people present, everyone wearing a sage green flight jacket over a polo shirt.  I see Khaki pants worn with the polo shirt about as often as I see grey, and grey cargo pants worn with the aviator shirt more often than not.

They don't actually control it, as there are no consequences for ignoring the uniform regulations.

[Eclipse]

As we have discussed several times over the years, the prohibition of military ribbons on corporates is NOT a CAP decision.  I know; "I was in the room when it happened."

The you don't present or accept an award that arguably 1/2 the adult membership is ineligible to ever wear.

I have no issue with the prohibition of military decs on corporate uniforms, frankly I'd just as soon
people only wore relevent decs and badges on any CAP uniform, but regardless, either an exception should have been granted for CAP members, or the award politely turned down. (Or simply awarded to the organization for the national flag, and not the members, which was probably the actual appropriate answer, anyway).

Nothing says "retention" better then a member in full service dress who does little to anything but write a check standing next to an A-Lister who is away from his family 8 weeks a year for CAP looking at that shiny AW-FOUI while wearing his real estate jacket.

[Capt Thompson]

It's the CAP version of the National Defense Service Medal. The award criteria is almost the same as the NDSM.

Yes and no. If this "crisis" period ends, and they stop awarding it, and then a new "crisis" occurs, and they start awarding it again... then I would agree, it's the CAP version of the NDSM.

If they award it for just this "crisis", and it never gets awarded again, then it is the COVID Campaign Medal.

It does kinda look like a NDSM... with the middle colors reserved. Just saying.

If you read the change letter, there are provisions for multiple awards, so if say 5 years from now there is another global pandemic or something else deemed a crisis, they could start awarding them again, in which case a clasp would be added for anyone who served during both periods.

Also, for new members the awards will be added monthly going forward, so a Cadet could theoretically earn their Curry before the Crisis ribbon, but it's unlikely. Someone that pays their dues but doesn't show up for a single day would still earn the ribbon.

[Shuman 14]

As we have discussed several times over the years, the prohibition of military ribbons on corporates is NOT a CAP decision.  I know; "I was in the room when it happened."

It was and is the opinion and decision of our AF colleagues.  I had multiple discussions with the AF JAG responsible for the opinion, and tried to show her why her opinion was not well reasoned.

I was insufficiently persuasive.

(Cue a repeat of the "but why does the AF control bling on a non-AF style corporate uniform in the first place" discussion.  Answer:  Because they do and always have.)

Col Ned,

How long ago was this? You say you were not persuasive, in what format was the recommendation presented? Informal conversation? Formal discussion? Formal Presentation? Written Brief?

Every Branch (except maybe the USMC, they rarely change their uniforms) seems to hold a Uniform Board a least once annually.

CAP should be holding one each year as well and be taking those Board recommendations to CAP-USAF.

This is how you politely "poke the bear" and keep bringing up issues like Military Awards on Corporate Uniforms, OCPs, two-piece flightsuits, etc. so when new personnel rotate into positions at CAP-USAF we might get a new answer.

Seriously, no one but us is wearing ABUs anymore!

Will they say we have to change our whites and greys because they resemble the "proposed" Space Force Class B uniform too closely (i.e. White pilot shirt, Grey dress trousers, and USAF Blue tie)?

Sorry for the rant, but it always seems CAP is behind the power curve when it comes to uniforms.

[PHall]

As we have discussed several times over the years, the prohibition of military ribbons on corporates is NOT a CAP decision.  I know; "I was in the room when it happened."

It was and is the opinion and decision of our AF colleagues.  I had multiple discussions with the AF JAG responsible for the opinion, and tried to show her why her opinion was not well reasoned.

I was insufficiently persuasive.

(Cue a repeat of the "but why does the AF control bling on a non-AF style corporate uniform in the first place" discussion.  Answer:  Because they do and always have.)

Col Ned,

How long ago was this? You say you were not persuasive, in what format was the recommendation presented? Informal conversation? Formal discussion? Formal Presentation? Written Brief?

Every Branch (except maybe the USMC, they rarely change their uniforms) seems to hold a Uniform Board a least once annually.

CAP should be holding one each year as well and be taking those Board recommendations to CAP-USAF.

This is how you politely "poke the bear" and keep bringing up issues like Military Awards on Corporate Uniforms, OCPs, two-piece flightsuits, etc. so when new personnel rotate into positions at CAP-USAF we might get a new answer.

Seriously, no one but us is wearing ABUs anymore!

Will they say we have to change our whites and greys because they resemble the "proposed" Space Force Class B uniform too closely (i.e. White pilot shirt, Grey dress trousers, and USAF Blue tie)?

Sorry for the rant, but it always seems CAP is behind the power curve when it comes to uniforms.

What part of this was not a CAP decision but a USAF decision did you not understand?
We wear the "AF Style Uniform" at the Air Force's pleasure. Their uniform, their rules.

[THRAWN]

As we have discussed several times over the years, the prohibition of military ribbons on corporates is NOT a CAP decision.  I know; "I was in the room when it happened."

It was and is the opinion and decision of our AF colleagues.  I had multiple discussions with the AF JAG responsible for the opinion, and tried to show her why her opinion was not well reasoned.

I was insufficiently persuasive.

(Cue a repeat of the "but why does the AF control bling on a non-AF style corporate uniform in the first place" discussion.  Answer:  Because they do and always have.)

Col Ned,

How long ago was this? You say you were not persuasive, in what format was the recommendation presented? Informal conversation? Formal discussion? Formal Presentation? Written Brief?

Every Branch (except maybe the USMC, they rarely change their uniforms) seems to hold a Uniform Board a least once annually.

CAP should be holding one each year as well and be taking those Board recommendations to CAP-USAF.

This is how you politely "poke the bear" and keep bringing up issues like Military Awards on Corporate Uniforms, OCPs, two-piece flightsuits, etc. so when new personnel rotate into positions at CAP-USAF we might get a new answer.

Seriously, no one but us is wearing ABUs anymore!

Will they say we have to change our whites and greys because they resemble the "proposed" Space Force Class B uniform too closely (i.e. White pilot shirt, Grey dress trousers, and USAF Blue tie)?

Sorry for the rant, but it always seems CAP is behind the power curve when it comes to uniforms.

What part of this was not a CAP decision but a USAF decision did you not understand?
We wear the "AF Style Uniform" at the Air Force's pleasure. Their uniform, their rules.

The question is if that should be true for corporate unis as well. There is no debate on the AF style question.

[Shuman 14]

What part of this was not a CAP decision but a USAF decision did you not understand?
We wear the "AF Style Uniform" at the Air Force's pleasure. Their uniform, their rules.

Well, that's a very obtuse statement.

Are USAF Officers and Senior NCOs gods? THOU SHALL NOT QUESTION THE WORDS OF THE gods!

No one, least of all me, suggested changing the USAF style uniform without gaining CAP-USAF approval first.

It never hurts to ask again... and again... and again... or change never happens.

In thirty years plus in the Military I've seen this happen time and time again. Wait for a change in leadership, ask again, and sometimes you get a new result.

How do you know if their pleasure changes if you DON'T ASK. The USAF holds a Uniform Board every year, it solicits input from every Air Force organization, Active, Reserve, and National Guard. It reviews suggestions and recommendation and every year it publishes its findings.  Sometimes there are changes approved, sometimes there are not.

All I'm suggesting is, as part of the "total force", CAP should make suggestions to that Board, especially where it can effect CAP.

Following your logic, thirty years from now, CAP will still be wearing ABUs with black boots provided by the sole provider left in the world... Vanguard. I'm sure the costs will have come way down by then.

BTW, a CAP corporate uniform is NOT a Air Force Uniform. Just saying.

[baronet68]

BTW, a CAP corporate uniform is NOT a Air Force Uniform. Just saying.

There was a former national commander (his name shall not be uttered in polite company) who shared a very similar opinion... and the Air Force strongly disagreed. 

[SarDragon]

The AFOEA ribbon is a USAF ribbon, which wear is controlled by them. If they no, then so be it. Here's the current AF Uni Reg - DEPARTMENT OF THE AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2903, 7 FEBRUARY 2020
Incorporating Change 3, 3 December 2021, Certified Current 3 December 2021 .

It appears that there is NO specific prohibition on wearing awards on civilian clothing. There is guidance on proper wear and appropriate occasions.

Maybe it's time to revisit this with CAP-USAF.

[PHall]

The AFOEA ribbon is a USAF ribbon, which wear is controlled by them. If they no, then so be it. Here's the current AF Uni Reg - DEPARTMENT OF THE AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2903, 7 FEBRUARY 2020
Incorporating Change 3, 3 December 2021, Certified Current 3 December 2021 .

It appears that there is NO specific prohibition on wearing awards on civilian clothing. There is guidance on proper wear and appropriate occasions.

Maybe it's time to revisit this with CAP-USAF.

Hey, new National Commander, maybe it's time for a new conversation with CAP-USAF.

[NIN]

I do think its awful that our members who wear corporates cannot wear this ribbon. I personally do not wear ribbons on my corporates, but it really shouldn't be an issue.

I also think that Bob's suggestion to "politely decline" an award from the Air Force, while making a superb sound bite, doesn't take in to account things like reality.

As an FYI, the newly updated USAF uniform regulation still includes the prohibition on mixing military and civilian items.

1.4.9. While in civilian attire. Unless prescribed in this instruction, do not mix or wear a
combination of civilian and military clothing or unique uniform items e.g. rank insignia, cap
devices, badges, and other United States or Air Force insignia, devices, buttons, etc.
Exception: Tie tacks and lapel pins are authorized when wearing business attire.

I believe other services have similar prohibitions in their uniform manuals.  I recall that AR670-1 included such language, and I'm kind of betting the Navy and Marine Corps do as well. This is not a new thing, nor an Air Force-specific thing.

With regard to other organizations wearing military awards on their uniforms:  The VFW, the Legion, or some local police force are NOT under any sort of direction or control of the US Air Force. Its not like the AF is going to give a retired MSgt an Article 15 for hanging his AFCOMM off on his blazer at the local VFW meetings.

CAP, however, falls under the direction of the Air Force regarding this sort of thing. The Air Force allows CAP to wear its uniforms with certain modifications. While they don't specifically control the wear of our corporate uniforms, we're still under their direction, and their broad uniform policy prohibits wear of military awards (of which the AFOEA is) on "civilian clothing" (which our corporate uniforms are).

Now, should we be pursuing an exception to policy? I personally believe we should. Allowing the wear of an award presented to the organization, by ALL the members of the organization, should be a moot point. 

Is this something worth pursuing? Yes, to a point. Its likely not "the hill to die on" with our parent service.  The easiest way to get around this is a letter of exception from SECAF and we write it in to 39-3/39-1. The next easiest thing might be to get the USAF to recognize our corporate uniform as a legit "uniform." (that one seems like it would require far more hoops).

Also, it would be nice if CAP was recognized in AFI 36-2903, either in the introduction ("This publication applies to Department of the Air Force civilian and contract employees and uniformed members of the United States Space Force (USSF), the Regular Air Force (RegAF), the Air Force Reserve (ResAF), and the Air National Guard (ANG) and retired and separated personnel.") or in a way similar to how para 1.2.9 is currently worded.

BTW, the AF did not hold a uniform board for something like five or seven years.

Lastly, while folks do like to throw around "the Total Force" like some magic talisman or free pass to the movies, remember that CAP is still in that odd space where we are only operating as a member of the "Total Force" when executing Air Force-assigned missions. 

[arajca]

Regarding the AFOEA, a simple one line exemption by the AF would cover it. Something like:
Organization awards awarded to Civil Air Patrol covering the entire organization are authorized for wear on Civil Air Patrol distinctive uniforms.

Or a one-time authorization:
The Air Force Organizational Excellence Award awarded to Civil Air Patrol on order ########, is hereby authorized for wear on Civil Air Patrol distinctive uniforms. No other military ribbons or awards are authorized for wear on the Civil Air Patrol distinctive uniforms.

Would that be too much to ask?