CAP Aircraft Searching for Steve Fossett

[Nomex Maximus]

I guess one of the biggest reasons for using member owned aircraft was to keep timing out the CAP aircraft.  Using a member owned aircraft to ferry fresh crews from LA and SF kept the aircraft at the base and kept. 5 or 6 hours off the Hobbs. 

Does this statement strike anyone else as odd?  I've never heard anyone worry about keeping hours off an aircraft.  It's usually quite the opposite.  Why on earth do you care about saving 5 or 6 Hobbs hours?   Just curious.

They were worrying about it because a number of the CAP aircraft were close to timing out.  They had inspections due within a short number or hours.   Using the member owned aircraft for ferrying equipment, let the CAP aircraft be able to fly those hours in the grid rather than taking them back to home base for the inspection and then returning.

Could we think about ferrying in an A&P to do the 100 hour inspections right there on the spot and keep the airplanes flyable?

For that matter, on a recent SAREX in Michigan we were running out of qualified mission pilots. Can we think about deploying Checkpilots to missions to do checkrides on the spot to qualify expired MPs to then go and support the missions?

[Nomex Maximus]

Latest surveys show the price of rice rose from 2.8 yuan (34 US cents) to 3.2 yuan (38 US cents) per kilogram, peaking at 3.6 yuan (44 US cents) on Wednesday.

http://www.asiarice.org/sections/whatsnew/China23.html

But what is the price of avgas at Bishop? In yuan per liter?

[SarDragon]

I guess one of the biggest reasons for using member owned aircraft was to keep timing out the CAP aircraft.  Using a member owned aircraft to ferry fresh crews from LA and SF kept the aircraft at the base and kept. 5 or 6 hours off the Hobbs. 

Does this statement strike anyone else as odd?  I've never heard anyone worry about keeping hours off an aircraft.  It's usually quite the opposite.  Why on earth do you care about saving 5 or 6 Hobbs hours?   Just curious.

They were worrying about it because a number of the CAP aircraft were close to timing out.  They had inspections due within a short number or hours.   Using the member owned aircraft for ferrying equipment, let the CAP aircraft be able to fly those hours in the grid rather than taking them back to home base for the inspection and then returning.

Could we think about ferrying in an A&P to do the 100 hour inspections right there on the spot and keep the airplanes flyable?

Tools, man, tools. If you're not a mechanic, you might not understand. If you are, you do.

For that matter, on a recent SAREX in Michigan we were running out of qualified mission pilots. Can we think about deploying Checkpilots to missions to do checkrides on the spot to qualify expired MPs to then go and support the missions?

Cumbersome at best. That's not something that needs to be going on at a mission base in the middle of an active mission.  Pilots should be keeping up on their quals to make sure that doesn't happen.

[NIN]

You have to laugh at them because they want our support for the BS going on in Iraq, but don't seem to thrilled to return the favor when a civilian plane goes down. But look at it this way, because of their laziness, we have stuff to do!

I'm at a loss to understand what you're driving at here.  I'm an educated guy, but your logic does not compute.

I have been on MANY missions where we were searching right alongside the military folks.  Happens in some states FAR more often than others.

[dougsnow]

Could we think about ferrying in an A&P to do the 100 hour inspections right there on the spot and keep the airplanes flyable?

Theoretically yes. In the airline industry, we had fly-a-way kits with stuff like engine oil, hydraulic fluids, spare tires (nose and mains), tools, and some other stuff; these kits would be loaded on any airplane going off property to somewhere the carrier normally doesnt fly to. Another thing that we did was have contract maintenance at most any field that we could end up at, so if we did have to drop a plane in; we could have someone who is at least familiar with the airplane logbook forms go sign something off, and it gave us a point of contact if MX Control needed to fax pages of the maintenance manual. These A&P's were listed in our ops manual (by A&P cert number), and if someone wasnt on the list, they couldnt touch our airplane, but they could escort a company mech (who probably doesnt have that particular airports ID card), to the footprint of the airplane to do the work

Granted, the cargo capacity of a 172 isnt much, but in a case like the Fossett search, stuff like that could be Fedex'ed to the forward operating base from the wing's home drome.

Plus, a 172 isnt like a 727, and I bet most any FBO or certified repair station can handle them, but there is that billable hour rate...

[Nomex Maximus]

For that matter, on a recent SAREX in Michigan we were running out of qualified mission pilots. Can we think about deploying Checkpilots to missions to do checkrides on the spot to qualify expired MPs to then go and support the missions?

Cumbersome at best. That's not something that needs to be going on at a mission base in the middle of an active mission.  Pilots should be keeping up on their quals to make sure that doesn't happen.

The alternative is to not fly sorties because we haven't done our prerequisites like we were supposed to. Since we didn't, this would be a means of getting more planes in the air. Get the checkrides done get the paperwork signed off on the spot (since the Wing commander and all the imporatant people are probably already there) and then get back to work with more mission pilots. Send them outside of the immediate mission area to get this done, then bring them back in when ready.

[california IC]

Cessna offered to fly out two A & P's to do oil and light maintenance on our aircraft at Bishop.  First problem was that there were really no facilities to do it.  They would fly oil, filters and parts out, FEDEX all else as needed.  I am sure the EPA would have had a field day!  Second, the Cessna lawyers felt there may have been too much exposure.  They ended up offering us expedited service and parts at any of their service centers.  Better ( a little) than nothing.

[SDF_Specialist]

Cessna offered to fly out two A & P's to do oil and light maintenance on our aircraft at Bishop.  First problem was that there were really no facilities to do it.  They would fly oil, filters and parts out, FEDEX all else as needed.  I am sure the EPA would have had a field day!  Second, the Cessna lawyers felt there may have been too much exposure.  They ended up offering us expedited service and parts at any of their service centers.  Better ( a little) than nothing.

That certainly was nice of Cessna to do, but I find it hard to believe that setting up an EPA approved site to do the mainenance was out of the question. At least, that's how it looks to me. The one time that extra bit of support would have gone a long way.

[SarDragon]

You make things sound simple, but all you propose are ideas, with no plans to back them up.

[arajca]

That certainly was nice of Cessna to do, but I find it hard to believe that setting up an EPA approved site to do the mainenance was out of the question. At least, that's how it looks to me. The one time that extra bit of support would have gone a long way.

Getting EPA approval is not an easy thing. I work a vehicle maint shop - with alot of grandfathered in stuff - and getting the required approvals takes time. EPA wants engineer statements, plans, reviews, public comment periods, ad nauseum. To get approval to replace two fuel pumps with upgraded, current models (the old ones were 10+ years old) took two weeks because the news ones were not direct model replacements. No plumbing or tank mods were needed. EPA approval takes a LONG time. If you can get an emergency declaration, then the process can be sped up.

The best option, if you really want filed service, is to hook up with a mobile oil change service and get them to support an a&p to come out with oil and filters.

IIRC, Bishop is in CA, so you their unique rules to deal with as well.

[SDF_Specialist]

That certainly was nice of Cessna to do, but I find it hard to believe that setting up an EPA approved site to do the mainenance was out of the question. At least, that's how it looks to me. The one time that extra bit of support would have gone a long way.

Getting EPA approval is not an easy thing. I work a vehicle maint shop - with alot of grandfathered in stuff - and getting the required approvals takes time. EPA wants engineer statements, plans, reviews, public comment periods, ad nauseum. To get approval to replace two fuel pumps with upgraded, current models (the old ones were 10+ years old) took two weeks because the news ones were not direct model replacements. No plumbing or tank mods were needed. EPA approval takes a LONG time. If you can get an emergency declaration, then the process can be sped up.

The best option, if you really want filed service, is to hook up with a mobile oil change service and get them to support an a&p to come out with oil and filters.

IIRC, Bishop is in CA, so you their unique rules to deal with as well.

I thought there would have been an emergency plan for situations just like this. Everyone else seems to have a plan to try to cover all possibilities.

[Eclipse]

CAP is not an expeditionary force - its entire model is based on local people performing missions within reasonable distance of their homes, for short periods of time.

Because of this, forward logistics is one of CAP's weakest operational links.  We saw this at Katrina as well - only the barest of essential mission personnel were allowed to deploy with no though given to logistical personnel or need.

One would like to think these situations are giving someone pause, but real change can't come without a model adjustment and more people.

[RiverAux]

CAP is not an expeditionary force - its entire model is based on local people performing missions within reasonable distance of their homes, for short periods of time.

Thats certainly not the way we've been heading for the last few years.  The new C4 centers that CAP has developed are there for the purpose of facilitating movement of CAP resources from one Wing to another for major missions requiring committment of aircrews and ground teams for multi-day periods far from their home. 

[Nomex Maximus]

CAP is not an expeditionary force - its entire model is based on local people performing missions within reasonable distance of their homes, for short periods of time.

Because of this, forward logistics is one of CAP's weakest operational links.  We saw this at Katrina as well - only the barest of essential mission personnel were allowed to deploy with no though given to logistical personnel or need.

One would like to think these situations are giving someone pause, but real change can't come without a model adjustment and more people.

[/RANT]

Yeah, well, Katrina was a major federal screwup. Incompetence of unbelievable levels of magnitude still being felt today. That CAP was not well prepared to respond comes as no suprise to me.  I don't doubt that many many CAP members would have been willing to go and help, but our federal government just does not have any sensible plan of response for any major disaster.  And so CAP's responses are going to be mismanaged by people completely outside of CAP.

For pennies on the dollar CAP could provide significant and sustained responses to major disasters, but the incompetent political appointees sort of reduce our best efforts and intentions to near nonsense.

[/RANT]

[RiverAux]

Now that the primary search has been suspended, does anyone have any info on what hapened or is going to happen in regards to the old crashes found during this search?  Have ground teams gone out to them?  Families notified?  Etc?

[california IC]

There were no "new" old crashes in CA, I think the same for NV.  The reports were of old known crash sites just revisited.  We did send both ground teams and helicopters to confirm the sites.  Marking them?  Forget it.  The winds and weather acts like sandpaper in the Sierras.  The best we can do is update the crash locater with better lat/long as well as site status, ie. scattered, intact, now silver in color.

[RiverAux]

Now, I'm not disputing you, but CAP sources were quoted in the media on quite a few occassions talking about these "old" crashes as if they were newly found.  If they were old sites we previously knew about, why would we be crowing about how we "found" them?

[california IC]

I think the point that I would have made is that our scanners were doing their jobs...finding crashes, old, new or refreshed.  It says a lot about their skills and alertness.  In addition, ARCHER had similar results which validated its useage.  ARCHER located an elevator at the 9'000 foot level in the Sierras.  It was the only large piece of an old crash left after the bulk had been removed.  A lot of the information  passed along by the press is not always 100% accurate, imagine that!
This area is a grave yard for old wrecks that in the old days were left where they crashed and poorly charted...pre GPS & LORAN.  I know one crash that moved downslope 2000 feet after a storm and this Spring the remains of an airmen was located after the Spring thaw after a WWII crash.  The Sierras hold many secrets!

[SARPilotNY]

I heard the California IC was rushed to the hospital and had emergency surgery.
Anyone know the story?  What is his/her condition?

[wingnut]

No that's an ugly rumor, the last I saw Bob the IC, he was running Naked down the 395, it was terrible(he looks bad out of Uniform), we went through ICs every few days, got them buried next to the Gas pump. J.C. made it for over a week

There is an AP who lives at Bishop he did do some work, a 100hr, oil changes, etc. but only as a favor (he lived in Bishop to get away from the madness of Los Angeles).

I did see at least one wreck and it had an X on the wing, but thats after we got down to 50 feet (kidding)
Going back Friday to get the Archer (think the GA8 is broken (figures)

Many of us still want to continue the search/