CAP Aircraft Searching for Steve Fossett

[SDF_Specialist]

Recruiter, you have my apologies if I misunderstood what you were saying.  I guess I get a little sensitive to all the criticism to the war.   

SoCal, no problem. I have a nasty habit of speaking without actually stating what I may be upset about. I understand completely and share your feelings of this war.

[RiverAux]

2.  These large operations, SAR, HLS, DR, will require the use of member owner aircraft.

Not necessarily.  Better use of existing resources from other nearby states are available...we just need to get past the "Our wing can do it by ourselves, we don't need no stinkin' help" attitude that apparently still exists. 

[SDF_Specialist]

Are Nevada and California wings the only current wings involved in the search? I was asked last night after a HAM net if any of my local units are searching (which they aren't because I'm in Ohio).

[SJESOFFICER]

I'll answer to the best of my ability... we are rotation for 2 hours call up in this order ... NORCAL, SOCAL, NV so unless we have further leads we're on standby...

[SDF_Specialist]

I'll answer to the best of my ability... we are rotation for 2 hours call up in this order ... NORCAL, SOCAL, NV so unless we have further leads we're on standby...

So CAP is on a soft alert until new leads come up?

[SJESOFFICER]

Yup so we basically have a few aircrews from North Cal , South Cal, and NV on 2 hour stanby in case leads come up.

[SDF_Specialist]

Yup so we basically have a few aircrews from North Cal , South Cal, and NV on 2 hour stanby in case leads come up.

Well at least our people are getting a chance to rest. This has been a long search and I applaud CAP's effort.

[SJESOFFICER]

You have no idea... 6,000 aprox alt and long days...I took 3 days to recover my energy.

[SDF_Specialist]

Oh you were there? What kind of environment is it there? Busy? I've never been on an actual.

[SJESOFFICER]

Yup first weekend... yes it was busy but from my experience it ran smoother than the sarexs I been to. Everything just seems to fit in place... I was doing status board  and communications. A very valuable  experience...

[california IC]

2.  These large operations, SAR, HLS, DR, will require the use of member owner aircraft.
Not necessarily.  Better use of existing resources from other nearby states are available...we just need to get past the "Our wing can do it by ourselves, we don't need no stinkin' help" attitude that apparently still exists. 



I guess one of the biggest reasons for using member owned aircraft was to keep timing out the CAP aircraft.  Using a member owned aircraft to ferry fresh crews from LA and SF kept the aircraft at the base and kept. 5 or 6 hours off the Hobbs.  We also used them to ferry in equipment.  We still need to keep a certain level of resource available for any additional missions that come up.  We had 2 additional missing a/c missions in  CAWG during the search plus our usually daily ELT missions.  We had CAP aircraft lined up and used outside of CAWG and NVWG but weather issues and the like still remind us the local member owned resource may be the best option.  I think of myself as a resource manager, I try to keep all my options open and look at my needs the next operational period or two (or three...) down the road. 
One of the lessons learned and why we need to look at the way we use our aircraft was that we ran Bishop out of fuel.  Their shipment had to come from SF, not a short drive at all.  The tanker arrived as we had less than 40 gallons left in the main tanks and fuel trucks!  After an earthquake, would we have had a shipment?    There are so many lesson to be learned, relearned and rethought.  This was one of those "career" missions, not uncommon 30 years ago but just memories today.

[RiverAux]

But, there are plenty of aircraft in OR, ID, UT, and AZ that probably would have been happy to come in for short stretches to reduce that need.  They're probably more than happy to load up their aircraft with mission flying hours. 

Now, like someone said earlier, I'm all for using member-owned aircraft when that aircraft fits the particular mission we're trying to do better than a CAP aircraft, but if all we're talking about is another random 4-seat high-wing aircraft, we've got plenty of them available.   

[A.Member]

I guess one of the biggest reasons for using member owned aircraft was to keep timing out the CAP aircraft.  Using a member owned aircraft to ferry fresh crews from LA and SF kept the aircraft at the base and kept. 5 or 6 hours off the Hobbs. 

Does this statement strike anyone else as odd?  I've never heard anyone worry about keeping hours off an aircraft.  It's usually quite the opposite.  Why on earth do you care about saving 5 or 6 Hobbs hours?   Just curious.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

I guess one of the biggest reasons for using member owned aircraft was to keep timing out the CAP aircraft.  Using a member owned aircraft to ferry fresh crews from LA and SF kept the aircraft at the base and kept. 5 or 6 hours off the Hobbs. 

Does this statement strike anyone else as odd?  I've never heard anyone worry about keeping hours off an aircraft.  It's usually quite the opposite.  Why on earth do you care about saving 5 or 6 Hobbs hours?   Just curious.

They were worrying about it because a number of the CAP aircraft were close to timing out.  They had inspections due within a short number or hours.   Using the member owned aircraft for ferrying equipment, let the CAP aircraft be able to fly those hours in the grid rather than taking them back to home base for the inspection and then returning.

[RiverAux]

We saw this same sort of issue arise when we were discussing a search in Oregon or Washington (I forget which).  If I recall, in that one there were hardly any CAP planes flying because of maintenance being performed on the local planes.  Instead of brining in planes from outside the Wing so that mission effort could be sustained, they ramped down for maintenance. 

[PHall]

I guess one of the biggest reasons for using member owned aircraft was to keep timing out the CAP aircraft.  Using a member owned aircraft to ferry fresh crews from LA and SF kept the aircraft at the base and kept. 5 or 6 hours off the Hobbs. 

Does this statement strike anyone else as odd?  I've never heard anyone worry about keeping hours off an aircraft.  It's usually quite the opposite.  Why on earth do you care about saving 5 or 6 Hobbs hours?   Just curious.

CAP Aircraft have to get 50 and 100 hour inspections which take the aircraft out of service for at least one day, maybe more if they find something wrong.

[california IC]

I guess one of the biggest reasons for using member owned aircraft was to keep timing out the CAP aircraft.  Using a member owned aircraft to ferry fresh crews from LA and SF kept the aircraft at the base and kept. 5 or 6 hours off the Hobbs. 

Does this statement strike anyone else as odd?  I've never heard anyone worry about keeping hours off an aircraft.  It's usually quite the opposite.  Why on earth do you care about saving 5 or 6 Hobbs hours?   Just curious.

But those hours do add up.  Another issue, CA has no turbo a/c and around those 14500 foot peaks creates issues.   Two person aircraft lowers the POD, limiting fuel decreases time in grid, density altitude, downdrafts, you know.  We did use a turbo 182 from Utah, personnel from all over, but boy the high performance aircraft in quantity over the Sierras in the first day or so  can't be beat.  I agree CAP owned are most times more desireable but we should keep an open mind to member owned at times.
One last point, the search area is one of the most remote in the Wing, in Winter we cannot always fly over the Sierras, it can be a bumpy 2.5 flight just to get to the base, one way.

[wingnut]

I have to blow some smoke towards the ICs and base staff at Bishop, those of us who flew may have [censored]ed and moaned about things affecting us but I truely tip my hat, salute them at the base, I was drafted for one day and it was a busy thankless job. It is remarkable that we flew so many hours and had "ZERO" incidents (Well I hit my head on the flap 2x). Kudos to you guys. 15 to 20 aircraft, 50+ crewman, Grids searched  4 or 6 times, with sometimes three aircraft fom three different agencies or civilian in one grid. I want to grow up some day and be an IC.

[flyerthom]

You have to laugh at them because they want our support for the BS going on in Iraq, but don't seem to thrilled to return the favor when a civilian plane goes down. But look at it this way, because of their laziness, we have stuff to do!

With all due respect, that is just a stupid statement.   Besides, what does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

Just to add a friendly defense for myself, I wanted to tell you what I meant. In the statement that I quoted, it stated that it is rare for the Army or ANG to be searching for a downed civilian a/c. In the search for Mr. Fossett, they are involved, as well as multiple other SAR agencies. My statement had nothing to do with the price of rice in China. I don't even know what the price of rice in China is. Do you? Is there an inflation issue with rice in China? No disrespect taken, and none given. I'm hoping this may have helped you see what I was talking about.

Latest surveys show the price of rice rose from 2.8 yuan (34 US cents) to 3.2 yuan (38 US cents) per kilogram, peaking at 3.6 yuan (44 US cents) on Wednesday.

http://www.asiarice.org/sections/whatsnew/China23.html

[flyerthom]

I have got to call BS on a statement I saw on the national media by a NV National Guard public affairs guy who said that the state had spent $500,000 on the search but that "they would do that for anybody".  That is just absurdly untrue unless the Nevada National Guard is vastly different from those in other states.  

We all know that every once in a while the Army or Air National Guard will contribute to assets to a missing airplane search, but it is extremely rare.  For example, according to the AFRCC 2005 report there were 7 missing airplane missions in NV and the NV ANG wasn't involved in any of them.  

NV guard has been out with us before. They assisted in a find of a missing motor glider not that long before (I PM'd a couple of folks about that - they did find it but no save) this search.