CAP Aircraft Searching for Steve Fossett

[calguy]

The issue of the RON was if the AF was paying for it vs. to and from costs, a 2 day stay made sense.  To waste a half day on the a/c engines, staff and search time plus the saftey of keeping crews from flying at night over the mountains was a consideration of the staff.  Remember, CAWG members opposed any night flying over the mountains as unsafe.

[SarDragon]

[redacted] if I were to try to adapt the standard elt to be deployable I don't think much weight would be added, 30 ft of tether, 3/4 steel line bolted to the tail.  [further redacted]

Ten meters (33 ft)  of 19 mm (3/4 in) steel wire rope weighs 27 lb, and has a working wieght limit of 7052 lb. I think that's way overkill.

OTOH, 10 m of 3 mm (1/8 in) steel wire rope weighs about 1 lb, and has a working weight limit of 175 lb.

But you still need all the rest of the hardware in the airframe to make it work.

And nobody answered the $64 question - Who's going to pay for it?

[SJESOFFICER]

If i design a private us model I'll give it to you for discount... I would think it would be a option on buying a new plane... I'm not a pilot but elts come with the plane ?

[D242]

Getting back to the Mechanical Turk search for a moment. I realize that nobody may have this answer, but I think something to be analysed, for future reference...

Given that there were reportedly a number of undocumented older crash sites identified through conventional search methods, I'm given to wonder whether any of those sites were identified by the satellite search as well. If so, it would be a good yardstick by which to measure the effectiveness of that sort of search. On the other hand, if not, then it would prove its ineffectiveness too.

[SJESOFFICER]

Although I dont agree to what someone did from their site, if the coordinates are public ( dont know personally) you might be able to ask youchoose.net who have a blog just for that...

[D242]

I was more interested in insights from within the actual SAR community, not just those who jump on the bandwagon when the search objective has a high profile.

[SJESOFFICER]

You asking if we saw any of those from the Sats?

[california IC]

As for California and I am sure Nevada, the only old crash sites were those that had been found before and just "forgotten" about over the last 20 to 30 years.  No coyotes, no mountain lions.  Some were found by ARCHER, some by low tech observers and scanners. 

[SarDragon]

Hey, Bob, got a rough sortie and flight hour count for the mission?

[D242]

You asking if we saw any of those from the Sats?

Yeah, basically. Did the online search result in anybody learning anything worth knowing?

The fact that previously undiscovered (or even long forgotten), crash sites were found through the air search seems to me to prove that it was effective and thorough, even if the search objective was not located. (If he ever is found, the reasons why this search failed will need to be analysed at that time, but that's a different question.)

My presumption is that they didn't know, or bother to remove from the images available online, any that contained old wreckage. Therefore, one could get some idea of how well the concept worked out in terms of identifying wreckage, period.

If the Mechanical Turk search results correlated with the results of the conventional visual search (as well as the more advanced seach equipment used on site), then that would validate it as an effective tool. If there was no such correlation, it would be proven invalid.

[RiverAux]

I have got to call BS on a statement I saw on the national media by a NV National Guard public affairs guy who said that the state had spent $500,000 on the search but that "they would do that for anybody".  That is just absurdly untrue unless the Nevada National Guard is vastly different from those in other states.  

We all know that every once in a while the Army or Air National Guard will contribute to assets to a missing airplane search, but it is extremely rare.  For example, according to the AFRCC 2005 report there were 7 missing airplane missions in NV and the NV ANG wasn't involved in any of them.  

[SDF_Specialist]

I have got to call BS on a statement I saw on the national media by a NV National Guard public affairs guy who said that the state had spent $500,000 on the search but that "they would do that for anybody".  That is just absurdly untrue unless the Nevada National Guard is vastly different from those in other states.  

We all know that every once in a while the Army or Air National Guard will contribute to assets to a missing airplane search, but it is extremely rare.  For example, according to the AFRCC 2005 report there were 7 missing airplane missions in NV and the NV ANG wasn't involved in any of them.  

You have to laugh at them because they want our support for the BS going on in Iraq, but don't seem to thrilled to return the favor when a civilian plane goes down. But look at it this way, because of their laziness, we have stuff to do!

[A.Member]

You have to laugh at them because they want our support for the BS going on in Iraq, but don't seem to thrilled to return the favor when a civilian plane goes down. But look at it this way, because of their laziness, we have stuff to do!

With all due respect, that is just a stupid statement.   Besides, what does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

[SJESOFFICER]

Pictures from Bishop Base taken 8-9 Sept 07

[SJESOFFICER]

Last Addition

[california IC]

Sorry Dave, don't have the day to date totals.  I had to leave the base for a tune up at the operating room.  I get daily briefings but I can add some basic info for CAWG and NVWG.
1.  Our scanners were looking and finding old wrecks out there so they were doing their jobs.  This last week we added about 500 additional ground searches out there with the opening of hunting season.  More to come when deer season opens.
I know this has been CAWG largest and longest search in years.  My guess is we may see more of these with the phase out of the SARSAT.   This part of CA and NV has little Radar coverage, and periods of week long no fly weather in the Sierras.  This will force out back to the old days of putting teams into the field during bad weather to take long range DF bearings.
Airline reports of a weak ELT over Fresno?  What's that....100,000 square  miles?
2.  These large operations, SAR, HLS, DR, will require the use of member owner aircraft.  For us in the mountain state, VHF FM is a major factor in the use of the aircraft in remote and rural area.  Hi Birds can be an answer but not always a solution.
3.  This mission will be reviewed at the highest levels in and out of CAP.  I think this operation showed for the most part our capabilities and some of our limitations.  A few factors that helped out as well as distracted us during the mission:  The name of our "target" help draw resources.
The remote location of our base: No repeaters, high speed internet, limited facilities hurt but the NOC stepped in and helped out in dozens of ways.
I would like to add both our Wing CC's, State Directors, OES, AFRCC, CAP from Wing to National were 100% behind our operations.  The stories of the CAWG CC blowing up at the base ARE NOT true, he was never there.  We had problems, sure, but I have seen and had worse elsewhere.

Now my question....did our membership numbers change over the last few weeks?

[SDF_Specialist]

You have to laugh at them because they want our support for the BS going on in Iraq, but don't seem to thrilled to return the favor when a civilian plane goes down. But look at it this way, because of their laziness, we have stuff to do!

With all due respect, that is just a stupid statement.   Besides, what does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

Just to add a friendly defense for myself, I wanted to tell you what I meant. In the statement that I quoted, it stated that it is rare for the Army or ANG to be searching for a downed civilian a/c. In the search for Mr. Fossett, they are involved, as well as multiple other SAR agencies. My statement had nothing to do with the price of rice in China. I don't even know what the price of rice in China is. Do you? Is there an inflation issue with rice in China? No disrespect taken, and none given. I'm hoping this may have helped you see what I was talking about.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

You have to laugh at them because they want our support for the BS going on in Iraq, but don't seem to thrilled to return the favor when a civilian plane goes down. But look at it this way, because of their laziness, we have stuff to do!

With all due respect, that is just a stupid statement.   Besides, what does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

Just to add a friendly defense for myself, I wanted to tell you what I meant. In the statement that I quoted, it stated that it is rare for the Army or ANG to be searching for a downed civilian a/c. In the search for Mr. Fossett, they are involved, as well as multiple other SAR agencies. My statement had nothing to do with the price of rice in China. I don't even know what the price of rice in China is. Do you? Is there an inflation issue with rice in China? No disrespect taken, and none given. I'm hoping this may have helped you see what I was talking about.

Unfortunately, Recruiter we know what you meant, and many of us think it was disrespectful.   Calling what our troops in Iraq are doing "BS" is uncalled for.  Even if you do not agree with this war, you should still respect the efforts being made by those that are there.   

[SDF_Specialist]

You have to laugh at them because they want our support for the BS going on in Iraq, but don't seem to thrilled to return the favor when a civilian plane goes down. But look at it this way, because of their laziness, we have stuff to do!

With all due respect, that is just a stupid statement.   Besides, what does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

Just to add a friendly defense for myself, I wanted to tell you what I meant. In the statement that I quoted, it stated that it is rare for the Army or ANG to be searching for a downed civilian a/c. In the search for Mr. Fossett, they are involved, as well as multiple other SAR agencies. My statement had nothing to do with the price of rice in China. I don't even know what the price of rice in China is. Do you? Is there an inflation issue with rice in China? No disrespect taken, and none given. I'm hoping this may have helped you see what I was talking about.

Unfortunately, Recruiter we know what you meant, and many of us think it was disrespectful.   Calling what our troops in Iraq are doing "BS" is uncalled for.  Even if you do not agree with this war, you should still respect the efforts being made by those that are there.   

SoCal, I have respect for out troops, and support them. What I meant by BS is what they have to go through with the IEDs and other explosives. I have nothing against U.S. military member serving this country. If I had been accepted into the military (medically denied), I would be over there too serving my country. I meant in no way that what they are doing is BS, just what they are going through while being over there.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

Recruiter, you have my apologies if I misunderstood what you were saying.  I guess I get a little sensitive to all the criticism to the war.