CAP Aircraft Searching for Steve Fossett

[JohnKachenmeister]

And... Fossett is in great physical shape.  His survival chances are better than most folks, even in hostile terrain.

[alice]

To answer John Aylesworth's query above, the month long survival story with a diary was from the California Trinity Alps crash in March 1967.  The search with three downed search planes in the Sierras was the infamous "Gamblers' Special" in 1969.   And, I'm sure John remembers the search which killed a young California Wing mission pilot Jon Kramer as well as two private searchers in May 1970.  The first two searches were mentioned in a CAP News article I wrote which has been put online a WSDOT website.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/aviation/SAR/ELT_History.htm

I've been thinking about Jon Kramer since I flew some grids earlier this week near where he was killed.  CAWG started a search on April 18, 1970 for Mr. Cehrs and his party lost between Mammoth and Fresno.  (Many in CAWG and PACR recall this search.  PACR's Ed Lewis was IC often during that search.)

The Sierras were snowed over yet the search dragged on week after week.  Mr. Cehrs was president of his local Sierra Club Chapter so his chances of survival were very high. On May 2, two private searchers in a Thorpe 180 went down looking for the Cehrs.  May 7, the Cehrs were found but the search continued for the Thorpe. May 9, Jon was killed at Fourth Recess Lake and another aboard was severely injured thanks in part to using a plane underpowered for the altitude, flying lower than we do today, and in the case of the injury, wearing boots which allowed snow in for freeze-refreeze frostbite.  May 12, the Thorpe was found.  That search went on almost a month in heavy snow.  US Marine infrared sensor jets participated as did many other air assets such as privately hired helicopters.

It would not surprise me at all if the Fossett search went on more than a month.  But, heaven help the searchers if it does because as these long searches drag on, stats are, some searchers will die.

Alice Mansell
Deputy Commander
Jon E. Kramer Memorial Sq 10
Palo Alto, CA

[SAR-EMT1]

Well, with Cessna's donations coming in for airframe repair and upkeep,
( I assume) will this be a problem, or is the primary danger complacency?

Im not a pilot so forgive me the question: During a mission like this, are CAP members who hold A&P status allowed to serve as crew chiefs?

[SJFedor]

National has some rules against it, and most wings increase those rules. I know when I was in PAWG, we got a memo from the NER commander saying we cannot even do any preventative maint except adding oil.

I would imagine that, as the aircraft are used and come up on their oil changes and/or 100hr inspections, they're rotating them out for fresh ones.

I vaguely remember national saying something about any A&P that wants to work on our aircraft has to have at least a $1,000,000 liability coverage insurance. 

[bosshawk]

SAR-EMT1: Without putting words in Alice's mouth, I would say that complacency is not as much a problem as is repetitive visits to some of the nastiest search grids in the US.  The more times that you put crews into harms way, the higher the possibility of having them get into trouble.  Now, no pilot goes out looking for a place to have a crash, but they do happen.  Some of those search grids near Bishop have 13.000 foot high granite clouds in them, with no safe places to land if you have a problem.  Then, there are the Sierra winds, which can reach 90 kts or more at those altitudes.  Three people in a 182 in some of those conditions gets real close to unsafe.

Simply put, the longer that we send folks into those mountains, the closer we come to a disaster of some sort.  CAWG hasn't had a search in the mountains of this magnitude for some years and our supply of really qualified mountain search pilots is getting thin.

[alice]

As Paul wrote, if we keep throwing search aircrews into the High Sierras - especially as aircrews get tired -  the chances of a lethal crash increase.

FWIW:  At the Bishop, CA search base, when a C182 gets tasked to a very high grid, routinely the PIC only goes up with an observer since an extra average adult in the backseat pushes close to 200 lbs from max gross weight.  Without that second pair of search eyes, the scanner, POD is automatically cut down 50%.

And eve getting a C182 up to 12,500' for highbird duty is interesting....

I wonder what the CAP fleet and member-furnished fleet is now.  How many are C182s?  C206s, Airvans, etc.   What do wings with high mountains have compared to those with nothing over 4,000'?  I know ORWG has a member-furnished O-2.  Would you rather be in that or a C182 at 13,000 on oxygen as all those high grids need.

[Flying Pig]

We were flying at about 14,000 over the Sierras on O2.  But that little 182 was suckin wind trying to climb out of the Owens Valley.

[Nomex Maximus]

FAA issues TFR for the search area:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/15/fossett.search.ap/index.html

FDC 7/7172 ZOA NV.. FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS 30 W OF COALDALE, NV. EFFECTIVE FROM 0709152200 UTC UNTIL 0709160230 UTC. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 91.137(A)(3) TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONSARE IN EFFECT WITHIN AN AREA BOUNDED BY 383000N/1190000W OR THE MINA /MVA/ VORTAC 248 DEGREE RADIAL AT 45.7 NM THEN TO383000N/1183000W OR THE MINA /MVA/ VORTAC 243 DEGREE RADIAL AT 22.3 NM THEN TO 374500N/1183000W OR THE MINA /MVA/ VORTAC 187 DEGREE RADIAL AT 53.6 NM THEN TO 374500N/1190000W OR THE MINA /MVA/ VORTAC 206 DEGREE RADIAL AT 67 NM THEN BACK TO ORIGINAL POINT AT AND BELOW 2000 FEET AGL TO PROVIDE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR SEARCH AND RESCUE OPERATIONS. ONLY RELIEF AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS UNDER THE DIRECTION OF THE INCIDENT COMMANDER ARE AUTHORIZED IN THE AIRSPACE. AIRCRAFT MAY LAND AND DEPART AIRPORTS WITHIN THE AIRSPACE.CAP INCIDENT COMMANDER, PHONE 775-782-6260 IS IN CHARGE OF THE OPERATION. SYSTEM OPERATIONS SUPPORT CENTER/SOSC, PHONE 202-493-5107,IS THE FAA COORDINATION FACILITY.

[RiverAux]

VERY interesting.
1.  Proves that TFRs can happen for those who doubted.
2.  Someone earlier posted that the Air National Guard had been placed in charge, but this puts it on the CAP Incident Commander.  We all know that even if the Air National Guard is the "actual" incident commander that CAP will still have one of its own IC's overseeing CAP's part of the mission.  But, I can't see the FAA using the CAP IC as the controller for the TFR if the Air National Guard was officially in charge. 

[RiverAux]

Part of the latest AP article ... has info on reason for the TRF:

At the urging of search coordinators, the Federal Aviation Administration issued a temporary flight restriction in the search area Friday after an amateur pilot flew through at a low altitude.

When contacted, the pilot said he wanted to find Fossett and claim a $10,000 reward advertised on YouChoose.net, Locke said.

``This freelance searching is not only dangerous, but will potentially result in the delay or cancellation of all air search missions for Mr. Fossett,'' search organizers said in a written statement.

[Nomex Maximus]

The TFR below 2000 feet AGL protects the searchers but I guess the highbirds are on their own!

[RiverAux]

Well, there isn't going to be much conflict with the highbirds that they're not already experiencing. 

[alice]

Highbird for the California part of the search when in CAP acft has been interesting.  Radar floor for FAA ground radars is right around 12,000' above Mono Lake.  Our highbirds routinely try to get flight following for radar adviseries but we still must see and avoid.  I flew on a highbird this past Monday.  Go to Bishop and you, too, are likely to get a highbird sortie.... and some more hours doing base paperwork.

And, good news, the Salvation Army is now providing food and drink to the Bishop base.   Viva the Sally Army!

[RiverAux]

The NY Times reported today that the CA and NV National Guards had expended $200,000 in the search compared to $12,000 for CAP.  Most of the article focused on the mechanicalturk search. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/16/weekinreview/16basics.html?em&ex=1190088000&en=4744eec945770eb4&ei=5087%0A

I think I read in another article that the google image search cost about $100,000. 

[wingnut]

Came Back Thursday after 7 days, we are fried. Interesting ride none the less, I expect to get back on Wed.  I think we still have a chance but those 14 hour days suck. We must survey the pilots, aircrews and base staff on this mission because there needs to be some inner searching from CAP on this mission. I asked my Group Commander to mention the issue of pilots having to pay thousands of dollars out of their pockets on such missions (Credit Card), will CAP reimburse for the finance charge after a 6 month wait to be paid (NOOO)? I was glad and proud to meet many of you and of course it is usually the same ones I meet on these missions. So, lets ask the other members why they can't join in the mission? It is also time for us to go to the Governor and ask for the same legislation as in some states. "If you fly for CAP on an AFAM you get military leave time for the mission". Also lets ask the Air Force if they can sustain using 2 c130s and 3 helos everytime someone goes down, maybe we deserve regular 'Per diem" just like their Air Crews Get, or are we just chop Liver. We volunteer our time for training and meetings that is often double the time I ever was required for either the Army reserve or the Air Force reserve. The CAP of 1971 when I was a cadet is not the CAP 0f 2007 we are more than ever an integral part of homeland Security and aptly described so in many DOD whiteletters and policy documents. I will not quit but you can bet your bippy I will be heading to Sacramento. . . Charge (PS any Lawyers out there in Blue flight suits wanna help in correcting the wrongs, stopping the abuse)

[RiverAux]

Interesting tidbit from this article:http://www.startribune.com/484/story/1411234.html

In one sign that the effort has not produced as expected, overnight flights using infrared technology have been halted. Ryan conceded the flights had not been as effective as rescue teams had hoped.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

The NY Times reported today that the CA and NV National Guards had expended $200,000 in the search compared to $12,000 for CAP. 

I asked my Group Commander to mention the issue of pilots having to pay thousands of dollars out of their pockets on such missions (Credit Card), will CAP reimburse for the finance charge after a 6 month wait to be paid (NOOO)? I

I brought this topic up on another post.  I know of a lot of members that would have loved to have joined this search, but were financially unable to.  There has to be a better way.

[RiverAux]

They could always call in members from Wings that take a more reasonable approach to things.

[PHall]

Well, the latest is that the CAWG Base at Bishop is closing and the the entire operation will be run out of Minden.

[mikeylikey]

Members having to pay for mission costs is absolutely not right!  We need national to issue credit cards for missions, and let them sort out the repayment in the end.