Time in Grade

[Eclipse]

You cannot change the fact that he was a CSM during that time, period. 

The clock starts when he accepts full membership, that's the program.  A loophole in the database system doesn't change that.
He accepted less cost, requirements, and responsibility during the time he was a CSM.  If he was performing real staff work in that status,
that is a failing of the CC and the member for misunderstanding.

Amazing what becomes "trivial" when the time comes that it is an issue.

[RiverAux]

Not saying that they haven't been an outstanding CSM.  They seem to be doing exactly what that membership category is there for. 

[tsrup]

So your Wing ES Officer doesn't have to approve your GTL'S??  How would you sign them off without Mission numbers??

It was just an example of "just because you can push it through eServices, doesn't mean it coincides with the regs" kind of thing.

[a2capt]

Well, a question submitted to the knowledge base staff:

If the (members) initial year of membership is as a CSM, is any of that time when coupled with the other requirements that were completed initially, such as Level I, Safety, CPPT, etc., transferable for a promotion to 2Lt. immediately after transferring from CSM to Active Member? (on the basis that the normal requirement fro 2Lt. is Complete Level I and 6 months time in no grade)

..and the answer I got back:

Since Cadet Sponsor Members must complete Level I, the time served as a sponsor member can be counted toward the six months in CAP requirement for promotion to 2d Lt.  The unit commander would be the one to make the decision but it can be done.

Time served.. makes it sound like a sentence. So, basically, thats the only period of membership service where the pre-requisites are the same. But the responsibilities and duties that can be performed vary, of course.

[RiverAux]

It would be nice if that knowledgebase answer was actually reflected in the regulations. 

[SarDragon]

It would be nice if that knowledgebase answer was actually reflected in the regulations.

Maybe no one thought about that situation when the reg was written. How often does it come up?

[Eclipse]

It would be nice if that knowledgebase answer was actually reflected in the regulations.

Maybe no one thought about that situation when the reg was written. How often does it come up?

About as often as issues involving military NCO grade - once every 5 years in the wet world and weekly here...

[Grumpy]

Here is a quote from CAPR 35-5, para 4-3 relating to pilots:

"INITIAL GRADES  Members in this category will be enrolled initially as senior members without grade.  However, immediately upon completiion of Level I, the unit commander may recommend the member for appointment to a grade commensurate with his or her special skill, as outlined in Figure 6."

Private Pilot              2nd Lt.

What is the difference between promoting a private pilot to 2nd Lt and a CSM who has already been in CAP a full year and completed Level I to 2nd LT?

I'll tell you.  The CSM has more time in CAP than the pilot.

[Eclipse]

This is an Apple:

This is an Orange:

Both are tasty, however comparing the two is foolish.

[RiverAux]

I'll tell you.  The CSM has more time in CAP than the pilot.

And you'll find many on CAPTalk who think it is a bad idea to give advanced rank to that pilot as well. 

Make the reg say that you can count CSM time and I'll be okay with it.  Whether or not it is a good idea to do so is a separate issue, but it is indisputably a violation of our regulations to do it now no matter what the knowledgebase says. 

[JeffDG]

This is an Apple:

This is an Orange:

Both are tasty, however comparing the two is foolish.

Here ya go:
http://www.improbable.com/airchives/paperair/volume1/v1i3/air-1-3-apples.html

[Eclipse]

^Nice!

[tsrup]

Simple, the pilot has the ability to be used as a pilot, or can hold a command staff position.

And mostly the advanced grade is an incentive to get people we can use into our program.

However, a CSM is nothing more than a chaperone.  Therefore there time prior does not entitle them to advanced grade. Using them as anything more is a violation of regulations.

[lordmonar]

Simple, the pilot has the ability to be used as a pilot, or can hold a command staff position.

And mostly the advanced grade is an incentive to get people we can use into our program.

However, a CSM is nothing more than a chaperone.  Therefore there time prior does not entitle them to advanced grade. Using them as anything more is a violation of regulations.

Actually CSM's can do more then chaperone.....and according to KB.....their time does count.

[tsrup]

Simple, the pilot has the ability to be used as a pilot, or can hold a command staff position.

And mostly the advanced grade is an incentive to get people we can use into our program.

However, a CSM is nothing more than a chaperone.  Therefore there time prior does not entitle them to advanced grade. Using them as anything more is a violation of regulations.

Actually CSM's can do more then chaperone.....and according to KB.....their time does count.

I thought 35-5 was the regulating authority for promotions?

and it is pretty clear

Promotion To   Minimum Skill       Time-In-Grade
2d Lt                    Level I             6 months as senior member

Notice it says "as senior member" not "as a senior member"

[Grumpy]

Simple, the pilot has the ability to be used as a pilot, or can hold a command staff position.

And mostly the advanced grade is an incentive to get people we can use into our program.

However, a CSM is nothing more than a chaperon.  Therefore there time prior does not entitle them to advanced grade. Using them as anything more is a violation of regulations.

Ah yes, here we go again with the ol' "Pilots are more important because they can be a pilot" argument.  The fact that you're making the CSM take all the training that a senior member is required to take but they are "nothing more than a chaperon" sounds a little unfair to me.  If you can't use them except as a chaperon why make them take Intro to CAP Safety, foundations (which has six modules), OPSEC, Equal Opportunities?  Have them take CPPT and be done with it.  You say I'm comparing apples and oranges.  No I'm not.  It's all the exact same training.  Not only that but one of our CSMs who just passed away from cancer was an AF Academy Graduate and flew fighters in the Air Force.  So don't tell me that a pilot is worth more than a non-pilot.

Regulations?  We're using CSMs exactly like the regs dictate.  At encampments, they're taking a load off the TACs by driving vans and shuffling cadet Johnny Jump-up around to different classes.

[Eclipse]

Irrelevant.

The status is the status - CSM has a specific role, and most of the CSM's I have met went that status because they "couldn't be bothered" about minor things like uniforms, Professional Development, etc.  They don't want to actually be "members", they want to "help", and if that help is any more than driving and chaperoning, i.e. they are doing the kind of staff work that would warrant grade credit, then they should not have been CSM's to start with.

They are not the same, if only because they chose not to make the same mental investment as regular members.

[tsrup]

Simple, the pilot has the ability to be used as a pilot, or can hold a command staff position.

And mostly the advanced grade is an incentive to get people we can use into our program.

However, a CSM is nothing more than a chaperon.  Therefore there time prior does not entitle them to advanced grade. Using them as anything more is a violation of regulations.

Ah yes, here we go again with the ol' "Pilots are more important because they can be a pilot" argument.  The fact that you're making the CSM take all the training that a senior member is required to take but they are "nothing more than a chaperon" sounds a little unfair to me.  If you can't use them except as a chaperon why make them take Intro to CAP Safety, foundations (which has six modules), OPSEC, Equal Opportunities?  Have them take CPPT and be done with it.  You say I'm comparing apples and oranges.  No I'm not.  It's all the exact same training.  Not only that but one of our CSMs who just passed away from cancer was an AF Academy Graduate and flew fighters in the Air Force.  So don't tell me that a pilot is worth more than a non-pilot.

Regulations?  We're using CSMs exactly like the regs dictate.  At encampments, they're taking a load off the TACs by driving vans and shuffling cadet Johnny Jump-up around to different classes.

Okay, Two pilots join up,

one joins as a CSM, the other joins as a SM. 

The CSM can be bus driver and chaperone and is at no time a part of the chain of command, cadet's or seniors (though its the duty of anyone to make sure that things are conducted safely).  The SM is assigned a specialty track, can fill myriad of squadron staff positions, and is for the most part unrestricted.  With that added responsibility, the SM will be held accountable for all that is assigned to him/her. 
Since a CSM's responsibility is restricted, so is their accountability. 

Clear as mud?

When you fill out your CAPF 12 and want to join as a SM you are signing up for all three missions of CAP.

When you sign up as a CSM you are not.  Plain and simple.



I only addressed the pilot issue because it was asked "why they get advanced grade", comparing mission related skill promotions with duty performance promotions are apples and oranges, and is quite frankly a straw man argument.   The only thing the two have in common is that they are not mandatory and the members receiving them are not entitled to them.

Just like the SM with 6 months time in grade would not receive my recommendation for promotion if all he did at the squadron was drive the bus and be an extra head around so we could meet the supervision requirements for the cadets. 


Not to say that a CSM is not a valuable resource as is any person who wants to volunteer, but for some reason they opted out of a lot of CAP when they joined up as a sponsor and that is just the way it is.  Kudos to anyone who wants to do it, and then ultimately become a SM but remember that your time prior doesn't mean anything now and your are joining a new ball game. 

[tsrup]

I figured that would be the case and I knew it in my heart.  He's been with the squadron a year now and he's been as active, if not more so, than some of the members who have rank.  Just trying to find a way to do something nice for him.

Thanks for the confirmation.

OP, if you really feel like this person deserves promotion I recommend you read
35-5  Section C, 3-10.

This is the way to do it that's in line with the regs, and if this person really is deserving this will get them their promotion.

[Grumpy]

OK, right now a SM signs up and goes through Level I training.  That time he puts into the training counts towards his TIG whether it takes 1 wk or 6 mos.  If he takes 6 mos to complete the training he can be promoted right away.

It is mandatory for a CSM to take all the same training but their TIG doesn't count when they gp active.  What do we do, start his time from zero and make him take the training again? 

Why not simply say, "OK Mr/Ms CSM if you choose not to be an Active Member at this time, your Time-in-grade will not count should you decide to change your status at a later date.  However, you still must complete CPPT training before you do anything with cadets.  You will still be given credit for the CPPT training should you change your status at a later date".

That way you don't have them jumping through the hoops an active member has to.  Heck, I've even been directed by "higher command" to have them receive the A/C Ground briefing because they have a CAP ID and might come into contact with aircraft while performing as a chaperone.

Have I got you beating your head against a wall yet?