CAP receipient of the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award.

[kwe1009]

BTW, in case anybody is wondering....

The Air Force has not made a formal decision yet on whether CAP members will be able to wear the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award on the Air Force style uniforms.  Please ask your members to be patient until we receive the final decision from the Air Force.  Hopefully we will have the answer to that and other related questions within a few weeks.

That looks like a KB response.

I have to go sit down the room is spinning.

Why aren't these questions asked and answered beforehand?

This is the kind of thing that wastes the most time, effort, initiative and worst, esprit-de-corps -
specifically rushing things out the door, when there is no actual rush whatsoever, many times
ignoring the advice, sometimes solicited advice, of the membership at large.

• 10 years to update 39-1, member input ignored, rushed out the door broken, remains broken 2 years later.
  
  Encampment curriculum in draft form for 3 years, tested for two more, published seriously broken, remains broken 2 years later.
  
  ABU ACL published broken / incomplete, update broken / incomplete, remain broken.

But NHQ can issue emergency instructions overnight on what email signature to use,
(which was also largely unusable by many email systems).

The above are just three high-visibility examples of what can be found all across the regs and policies,
and that doesn't even account for all the places Wing and below make up more rules or replicate these problems.

Now add up all the times questions are raised about things that should be fixed when found, x's member hours,
and you have one of the top ten reasons mission-centric things aren't getting done.

You are exactly correct.

Regarding the AFOEA, someone in CAP (NHQ, etc) wrote the nomination package.  I don't know why the question was not asked from the beginning, "If we get this, will our members be authorized to wear the ribbon?"  My guess is either nobody thought to ask in advance (likely) or it was considered but they were afraid if they asked the question first then the award may not get approved (very likely). 

Correctly obvious mistakes in regulations should not be that difficult.  They are all just Word documents that are converted to PDF.  I'm not sure why this is made into such a difficult process.  It is actually easier to get an AFI changed than a CAPR.

[Shuman 14]

"Hmmm...OK, write the dec up as an "honorarium recognizing contribution but not to include individual decorations."

"Done, thanks...this will look real nice on their flag and make a good press release..."

Or the Secretary could have responded:

"Hmmm... OK, I'd really like to honor every single member of CAP for their hard work, dedication and support to the Air Force, draft an exception to policy memorandum to accompany the award that ensures that everyone in CAP is awarded the decoration and is allowed to wear it on USAF-style and Corporate uniforms. We'll deal with Reservist, Guardsmen, Active Personnel Airmen and cadets who later enlist/commission on a case by case basis as needed." 

[Eclipse]

"Hmmm... OK, I'd really like to honor every single member of CAP for their hard work, dedication and support to the Air Force, draft an exception to policy memorandum to accompany the award that ensures that everyone in CAP is awarded the decoration and is allowed to wear it on USAF-style and Corporate uniforms.

Sounds good in a web forum, takes substantially more then a "memo" - for starters, the SECAF doesn't directly control the regulations that prohibit wear of military decs
on CAP uniforms. CAP is, after all, a separate entity with a specific process for updating and changing regulations (which it routinely ignores).

This situation takes more then an ICL, and opens up other issues the USAF has not wanted to address in the past.

[GaryVC]

"Hmmm...OK, write the dec up as an "honorarium recognizing contribution but not to include individual decorations."

"Done, thanks...this will look real nice on their flag and make a good press release..."

Or the Secretary could have responded:

"Hmmm... OK, I'd really like to honor every single member of CAP for their hard work, dedication and support to the Air Force, draft an exception to policy memorandum to accompany the award that ensures that everyone in CAP is awarded the decoration and is allowed to wear it on USAF-style and Corporate uniforms. We'll deal with Reservist, Guardsmen, Active Personnel Airmen and cadets who later enlist/commission on a case by case basis as needed." 

It is even more complicated than that, because you would have to take into account former and retired military (Air Force and other branches) who may or may not already have this unit award.

[abdsp51]

Or the Secretary could have responded:

"Hmmm... OK, I'd really like to honor every single member of CAP for their hard work, dedication and support to the Air Force, draft an exception to policy memorandum to accompany the award that ensures that everyone in CAP is awarded the decoration and is allowed to wear it on USAF-style and Corporate uniforms. We'll deal with Reservist, Guardsmen, Active Personnel Airmen and cadets who later enlist/commission on a case by case basis as needed." 

Won't happen.  And again there will not be any credit issued to cadets to wear the award upon commisioning or enlistment.  The only caveat is prior service and CAP service especially cadet service no matter which way you try to argue, justify or articulate does not count. 

[Shuman 14]

Won't happen.  And again there will not be any credit issued to cadets to wear the award upon commisioning or enlistment.  The only caveat is prior service and CAP service especially cadet service no matter which way you try to argue, justify or articulate does not count.   

Strange, I kinda remember you saying that the USAF would NEVER award one of it's various unit awards to CAP... funny how things change.

I'm willing to concede that you might be 100% right, but can you not even consider that USAF could  authorize it for everyone and recognize it if a former cadet or current/former senior member enlists/commissions into the USAF?

It's not that far fetched to consider. Other Services have had similar issues and addressed them mostly in favor of the individual service member.

The USCG recognizes their decorations earned by former/current USCGAux members that later enlist/commission into the USCG.

The US Army recognizes many awards (Airborne Wings, Air Assault Wings, GAFET, etc.) earned by non-contracted ROTC cadets prior to officially joining the Army upon commissioning.

[abdsp51]

Strange, I kinda remember you saying that the USAF would NEVER award one of it's various unit awards to CAP... funny how things change.

I'm willing to concede that you might be 100% right, but can you not even consider that USAF could  authorize it for everyone and recognize it if a former cadet or current/former senior member enlists/commissions into the USAF?

It's not that far fetched to consider. Other Services have had similar issues and addressed them mostly in favor of the individual service member.

The USCG recognizes their decorations earned by former/current USCGAux members that later enlist/commission into the USCG.

The US Army recognizes many awards (Airborne Wings, Air Assault Wings, GAFET, etc.) earned by non-contracted ROTC cadets prior to officially joining the Army upon commissioning.

Prover where I said this because guess what I didn't.  Your powers of observation need a reboot.

You need to quit comparing CAP & AF with the USCG,  CGAux and the Army.  None of those apply here period.  The AF recognizes prior awards from prior services.  They only recognize some from ROTC and that is it.   CAP and cadet service does not count for awards upon a commision or enlistment period, buck stops there.   There is nothing currently in the works for it either. 

You again continously show just how little you know about CAP and the AF.   

[stillamarine]

Strange, I kinda remember you saying that the USAF would NEVER award one of it's various unit awards to CAP... funny how things change.

I'm willing to concede that you might be 100% right, but can you not even consider that USAF could  authorize it for everyone and recognize it if a former cadet or current/former senior member enlists/commissions into the USAF?

It's not that far fetched to consider. Other Services have had similar issues and addressed them mostly in favor of the individual service member.

The USCG recognizes their decorations earned by former/current USCGAux members that later enlist/commission into the USCG.

The US Army recognizes many awards (Airborne Wings, Air Assault Wings, GAFET, etc.) earned by non-contracted ROTC cadets prior to officially joining the Army upon commissioning.

Prover where I said this because guess what I didn't.  Your powers of observation need a reboot.

You need to quit comparing CAP & AF with the USCG,  CGAux and the Army.  None of those apply here period.  The AF recognizes prior awards from prior services.  They only recognize some from ROTC and that is it.   CAP and cadet service does not count for awards upon a commision or enlistment period, buck stops there.   There is nothing currently in the works for it either. 

You again continously show just how little you know about CAP and the AF.

Because you OBVIOUSLY know everything that is in the works for CAP and the AF huh? 

[Shuman 14]

Because you OBVIOUSLY know everything that is in the works for CAP and the AF huh? 

Thank you.

[abdsp51]

Stillamarine and Shuman.  I have a far greater understanding of knowledge of what goes on in the AF than either of you put together.  I also have a greater understand of the relationship between the AF and CAP than either of you. 

I also have SMEs in this realm who I have pinged in regards to this very topic and they have said no. 

So as it stands BLUF currently and for the future there is no provision for cadets to wear this award upon commisioning or enlistment.  The stance it it has to be earned while in the service and CAP service and cadet service does not count. 

How many SMEs do you have?

Plus if it's not in the AFI it's not going to happen....

[THRAWN]

I think the bottom line is that we are not going to know what happens until it happens. Speculating, counterspeculating and respeculating just doesn't carry any weight until we have a firm decision. It's obvious that we all have opinions, some more informed than others, on how we'd like to see this go. Patience, padawans...the planetarium will make their decision and when they do, we'll be the last to know....

[goblin]

How many SMEs do you have?

Wow cool!

[PHall]

Strange, I kinda remember you saying that the USAF would NEVER award one of it's various unit awards to CAP... funny how things change.

I'm willing to concede that you might be 100% right, but can you not even consider that USAF could  authorize it for everyone and recognize it if a former cadet or current/former senior member enlists/commissions into the USAF?

It's not that far fetched to consider. Other Services have had similar issues and addressed them mostly in favor of the individual service member.

The USCG recognizes their decorations earned by former/current USCGAux members that later enlist/commission into the USCG.

The US Army recognizes many awards (Airborne Wings, Air Assault Wings, GAFET, etc.) earned by non-contracted ROTC cadets prior to officially joining the Army upon commissioning.

Prover where I said this because guess what I didn't.  Your powers of observation need a reboot.

You need to quit comparing CAP & AF with the USCG,  CGAux and the Army.  None of those apply here period.  The AF recognizes prior awards from prior services.  They only recognize some from ROTC and that is it.   CAP and cadet service does not count for awards upon a commision or enlistment period, buck stops there.   There is nothing currently in the works for it either. 

You again continously show just how little you know about CAP and the AF.

Because you OBVIOUSLY know everything that is in the works for CAP and the AF huh? 

Considering that he was actually in the Air Force and you guys weren't, yeah he's an "expert".

[lordmonar]

Strange, I kinda remember you saying that the USAF would NEVER award one of it's various unit awards to CAP... funny how things change.

I'm willing to concede that you might be 100% right, but can you not even consider that USAF could  authorize it for everyone and recognize it if a former cadet or current/former senior member enlists/commissions into the USAF?

It's not that far fetched to consider. Other Services have had similar issues and addressed them mostly in favor of the individual service member.

The USCG recognizes their decorations earned by former/current USCGAux members that later enlist/commission into the USCG.

The US Army recognizes many awards (Airborne Wings, Air Assault Wings, GAFET, etc.) earned by non-contracted ROTC cadets prior to officially joining the Army upon commissioning.

Prover where I said this because guess what I didn't.  Your powers of observation need a reboot.

You need to quit comparing CAP & AF with the USCG,  CGAux and the Army.  None of those apply here period.  The AF recognizes prior awards from prior services.  They only recognize some from ROTC and that is it.   CAP and cadet service does not count for awards upon a commision or enlistment period, buck stops there.   There is nothing currently in the works for it either. 

You again continously show just how little you know about CAP and the AF.

Because you OBVIOUSLY know everything that is in the works for CAP and the AF huh? 

Considering that he was actually in the Air Force and you guys weren't, yeah he's an "expert".

But so was I......and I disagree with with what he says and my SMEs say differently then his SMEs.   So their point stands.

Ain't none of us in any position of saying definitively what is going to happen.

CAP and the USAF are working out the details.   They will tell us what's what when they know.

[Flying Pig]

"A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon." -Napoleon Bonaparte

.....or in the case of CAP, argue long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon Id bet 99% of the membership couldnt even recognize on ribbon rack until a few weeks ago.

[lordmonar]

"A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon." -Napoleon Bonaparte

.....or in the case of CAP CAPTALK, argue long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon Id bet 99% of the membership couldnt even recognize on ribbon rack until a few weeks ago.

FTFY

[Eclipse]

The "argument" here isn't about the ribbon, it's about donuts.

Specifically about CAP's seemingly universal ability to promise donuts and then be unable to deliver them.

Everyone loves donuts (except for facists and ne'er-do-wells).

CAP routinely buys the cheapest brand and then wonders why no one eats them, or why they didn't taste as good as the picture on the box.

CAP routinely asks the members "what kind of donuts do you want?", and then ignores the list and grabs a package at the gas station on the way to the meeting.

CAP publishes detailed, complete recipes for donuts and then ignores them in favor of "quick" or "easy", the result being bread with butter and sugar.

and worst...

CAP just can't leave the oven door or fryer lid closed long enough to let their donuts cook completely and thoroughly to the perfection
their detailed recipes and promises portended. Instead it's all done in a hurry at the last minute, thrown in a box 1/2 cooked and rushed out the door.
The result being stuff that looks like donuts, maybe even smells like donuts, but that have undercooked centers, missing ingredients, and basically no one wants.

Both the USAF and CAP have extensive rules about decorations in general, and this one specifically, that negate the presentation as it was done, not to mention the
wear.  All of  which could have and should have been mixed and cooked out before it was removed from the oven and presented.

[stillamarine]

Strange, I kinda remember you saying that the USAF would NEVER award one of it's various unit awards to CAP... funny how things change.

I'm willing to concede that you might be 100% right, but can you not even consider that USAF could  authorize it for everyone and recognize it if a former cadet or current/former senior member enlists/commissions into the USAF?

It's not that far fetched to consider. Other Services have had similar issues and addressed them mostly in favor of the individual service member.

The USCG recognizes their decorations earned by former/current USCGAux members that later enlist/commission into the USCG.

The US Army recognizes many awards (Airborne Wings, Air Assault Wings, GAFET, etc.) earned by non-contracted ROTC cadets prior to officially joining the Army upon commissioning.

Prover where I said this because guess what I didn't.  Your powers of observation need a reboot.

You need to quit comparing CAP & AF with the USCG,  CGAux and the Army.  None of those apply here period.  The AF recognizes prior awards from prior services.  They only recognize some from ROTC and that is it.   CAP and cadet service does not count for awards upon a commision or enlistment period, buck stops there.   There is nothing currently in the works for it either. 

You again continously show just how little you know about CAP and the AF.

Because you OBVIOUSLY know everything that is in the works for CAP and the AF huh? 

Considering that he was actually in the Air Force and you guys weren't, yeah he's an "expert".

But so was I......and I disagree with with what he says and my SMEs say differently then his SMEs.   So their point stands.

Ain't none of us in any position of saying definitively what is going to happen.

CAP and the USAF are working out the details.   They will tell us what's what when they know.

^ this. Just because he "was" in the AF doesn't mean he knows everything going on. Hell SECAF doesn't know everything going on in the AF. I've asked a few currently serving AF members and they've all answered differently. Some say yes. Some say no. A couple said "What's CAP" [emoji23][emoji23]

Things change. Couple months ago we never thought we'd be awarded an AF organizational award. Now we have. Now we think they'll never let us wear it, nor wear it when a member enlists. So just maybe that'll change too.

Reminds me of training old school cops. Cops hate change and will come up with all sorts of stuff as to why it shouldn't happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Luis R. Ramos]

I love donuts.

I love the donut analogy.

I think it does apply... maybe to a minor extent...

[stillamarine]

I love donuts.

I love the donut analogy.

I think it does apply... maybe to a minor extent...

I just saw a picture of a reese's cup donut. I'm going to need one of those.