Cadet Solo flight outside of CAP

Started by McDaddy2003, July 24, 2019, 02:17:52 PM

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McDaddy2003

We had a cadet fly her first solo in a powered aircraft yesterday. This was done outside of CAP by a non CAP Instructor and aircraft. That being said, would she be qualified to wear solo wings by bringing proper documentation? I've read she needs an endorsement by a CAP Instructor Pilot.

Any guidance is appreciated. I've already contacted CadetWings to get guidance on enrollment.

THX

Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

PHall


NovemberWhiskey

She needs to be endorsed by a CAP Instructor Pilot for the make and model IAW CAPR 70-1 para 4.1.1.1

You don't need to have solo'd to be qualified to wear the wings; technically you just need to be qualified to do so.

Spam


I've pasted the CAP regulatory requirements below (the food chain), as I could find them. My going in thoughts were that the decoration (wings) shouldn't be a barrier to the decoration (the wings) but the cadet would need a subsequent CAP check ride to fly corporate aircraft. My unfortunate conclusion however, is that the R70-1 "terms" section clearly attaches the CAP aircraft requirement to the definition.

I would say that yes, the cadet needs a CAP check ride to meet the definition of CAP solo pilot, in order to award the CAP Solo Wings.

V/r
Spam


CAP REGULATION 35-6
23 JANUARY 2015
Personnel Procedures
OPERATIONS RATINGS, AWARDS AND BADGES
1. Aeronautical Ratings and Requirements. Requirements for CAP-member aeronautical ratings are:
a. CAP Solo Pilot Rating: Be qualified in accordance with (IAW) CAPR 60-1.


https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/members/publications/indexes-regulations-and-manuals-1700
"R70-1 4 Dec 17 CAP Flight Management (replaces R60-1) includes ICL 18-05"


CAPR 70-1 ATTACHMENT 2 4 DECEMBER 2017
4.1. Basic CAP Pilot Qualifications
4.1.1. CAP Solo Pilot
4.1.1.1. To operate as a CAP Solo Pilot, the member must possess a current student pilot certificate, or a rated pilot certificate, with appropriate solo endorsements from a CAP Instructor Pilot for the make and model aircraft flown.

Terms. (p. 35)
CAP Solo Pilot – A CAP member who holds either a student pilot certificate or is a rated pilot, is endorsed by a CAP Instructor Pilot, and is authorized in accordance with this regulation to perform solo flights in CAP aircraft.


NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: Spam on July 24, 2019, 05:30:52 PM
I would say that yes, the cadet needs a CAP check ride to meet the definition of CAP solo pilot, in order to award the CAP Solo Wings.

What precisely do you mean by a "CAP check ride"? If you mean that one needs to get an endorsement IAW FAR 61.87 from a CAP instructor pilot then I agree. Otherwise, what did you have in mind?

Spam

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on July 24, 2019, 05:38:55 PM
Quote from: Spam on July 24, 2019, 05:30:52 PM
I would say that yes, the cadet needs a CAP check ride to meet the definition of CAP solo pilot, in order to award the CAP Solo Wings.

What precisely do you mean by a "CAP check ride"? If you mean that one needs to get an endorsement IAW FAR 61.87 from a CAP instructor pilot then I agree. Otherwise, what did you have in mind?

Sorry, no, you're correct. I misspoke. Endorsement for the wings.

Cheers
Spam

Cliff_Chambliss

OK, is there a specific CAP endorsement for this?  Or are we looking at an FAA endorsement IAW AC61-65H?  If CAP is looking for an FAA endorsement and the FAA endorsements all carry the words ...I Certify, I determine the applicant proficient, etc?  then its very simple.  No checkride=no endorsement. 
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NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: Cliff_Chambliss on July 25, 2019, 04:29:06 PM
OK, is there a specific CAP endorsement for this?
No; it's a standard FAR 61.87 endorsement. The only CAP-specific aspect is that it must be from a CAP Instructor Pilot.

farsightusf2017

The key thing to take away is that they aren't "solo wings" they are CAP solo pilot wings

mdickinson

Quote from: Eclipse on July 24, 2019, 03:50:45 PM
Needs to have a CAP checkride.

Absolutely not. Boy, am I surprised to see this misinformation being spread on CAP Talk. Suggestion: if you aren't sure of the answer, don't answer!

As a CAP instructor pilot (CFI) who has signed off half a dozen cadets for solo over the last 21 years, I can tell you what is required, and it is not a checkride.

In CAP we use the term "checkride" to refer to four different things:
- an annual CAPF5 checkride (required once a year of all CAP pilots)
- an abbreviated CAPF5 checkride (taken by a qualified CAP who already has a current annual CAPF5 checkride, usually for the purpose of adding an additional aircraft model or adding IFR privileges)
- a commander-required CAPF5 checkride (see 70-1; any commander may require a pilot under their command to take a checkride)
- a CAPF91 checkride (required once every 2 years of all CAP SAR/DR mission pilots)

None of the above is required for a pilot to solo, or for a pilot earn CAP solo pilot wings.

There are four ways that someone can solo a CAP aircraft. Each of these requires an appropriate log book endorsement (a.k.a. "sign off") from a qualified instructor.
- a cadet can be signed off by a CAP airplane IP or CP to solo an airplane
- a cadet can be signed off by a CAP glider IP or CP to solo a glider
- a cadet can be signed off by a CAP balloon IP or CP to solo a balloon
- a senior member can be signed off by a CAP glider IP or CP to solo a glider.

Any of these four endorsements satisfies the requirements of CAPR 70-1 for the rating of "CAP solo pilot."

None of these four endorsements requires a checkride.

Each of these four endorsements does require that the instructor pilot (a current CFI; or in the case of balloons, a commercial pilot with balloon rating) has flown with the pilot and determined that the pilot is competent to solo.

Eclipse

So...

No "CAP Checkride", but the CAP endorser has to fly with the pilot in question.

It's a nuance of the terminology, but functionally the same thing, especially in the context of the original question.

And wouldn't this person still need a F5 to actually fly alone (though in this case the question is just about the badge).

"That Others May Zoom"

Blanding

Quote from: Eclipse on August 08, 2019, 05:44:46 PM
...
And wouldn't this person still need a F5 to actually fly alone (though in this case the question is just about the badge).

A CAP Solo Pilot doesn't require a Form 5 to fly solo, right?

Ref:

4.1.1.1. To operate as a CAP Solo Pilot, the member must possess a current student pilot
certificate, or a rated pilot certificate, with appropriate solo endorsements from a CAP Instructor Pilot for
the make and model aircraft flown.


Huey Driver

Quote from: Blanding on August 08, 2019, 06:38:36 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 08, 2019, 05:44:46 PM
...
And wouldn't this person still need a F5 to actually fly alone (though in this case the question is just about the badge).

A CAP Solo Pilot doesn't require a Form 5 to fly solo, right?

Ref:

4.1.1.1. To operate as a CAP Solo Pilot, the member must possess a current student pilot
certificate, or a rated pilot certificate, with appropriate solo endorsements from a CAP Instructor Pilot for
the make and model aircraft flown.

That is the correct interpretation - no checkride required to exercise the rating of "CAP Solo Pilot".
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right...

N6RVT

Quote from: Nor'easter on August 13, 2019, 04:24:57 AM
Quote from: Blanding on August 08, 2019, 06:38:36 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 08, 2019, 05:44:46 PMAnd wouldn't this person still need a F5 to actually fly alone (though in this case the question is just about the badge).

A CAP Solo Pilot doesn't require a Form 5 to fly solo, right?

Ref:

4.1.1.1. To operate as a CAP Solo Pilot, the member must possess a current student pilot certificate, or a rated pilot certificate, with appropriate solo endorsements from a CAP Instructor Pilot for
the make and model aircraft flown.

That is the correct interpretation - no checkride required to exercise the rating of "CAP Solo Pilot".

After asking around, I have determined that a CAP instructor pilot will use a Form 5 to determine your eligibility to be a Solo pilot.  The advantage being that when you finish your PPL you automatically upgrade to VFR Pilot as your Form 5 is already on file.

NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: Dwight Dutton on October 14, 2019, 11:18:41 PM
After asking around, I have determined that a CAP instructor pilot will use a Form 5 to determine your eligibility to be a Solo pilot.  The advantage being that when you finish your PPL you automatically upgrade to VFR Pilot as your Form 5 is already on file.
So, on the assumption that your instructor pilot is also a check pilot, what do they tick on the Form 5 in the section about the certificate(s) exercised? When they mark that they have verified the pilot's certificates and documents - to what are they attesting?

N6RVT

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on October 14, 2019, 11:49:00 PM
Quote from: Dwight Dutton on October 14, 2019, 11:18:41 PM
After asking around, I have determined that a CAP instructor pilot will use a Form 5 to determine your eligibility to be a Solo pilot.  The advantage being that when you finish your PPL you automatically upgrade to VFR Pilot as your Form 5 is already on file.
So, on the assumption that your instructor pilot is also a check pilot, what do they tick on the Form 5 in the section about the certificate(s) exercised? When they mark that they have verified the pilot's certificates and documents - to what are they attesting?

There is no block for student pilot certificate - nor is there one for glider pilot.   The only solo pilots I know of are cadets flying the same plane and under the eye of the same instructor that they got to that point with, something a senior member cannot do.

If I were said instructor/check pilot I would take the potential solo pilot out for a flight, use the form 5 to evaluate their ability, and then tell  them if they complete their PPL in less than three months to just show me their PPL Certificate and I would then put the form 5 on file, making them a VFR pilot for the next nine months.  Because after 90 days they need that instructor to sign them off again.  All at their own expense, every time.  All you would get out of it is to briefly wear what looks like a 50's hood ornament.

My original interest in this was because I was initially only going to be a sport pilot and was going ti be a student for PPL for an extended period of time.  However my current flight instructor talked me out of it because I am learning in Los Angeles airspace and the only difference between sport & private here is 3 hours each of instrument and night flying and how to use a VOR.

McDaddy2003

Wow, I am sorry. Replies to threads to do not appear. Long story short, our cadet did receive her Solo Wings after an interview with a COP and substantiating documents. She is applying to CadetWings as well.

Thanks for the advice!