One of my fellow cadets donated blood to the Red Cross. The criteria for the award states (I believe) the blood transfusions and organ donations do count. So, my question is, has he earned the award? If so, how would he go about applying for the award?
Um, no. Read the regulation more carefully.
h. Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving. Awarded to members who save a human life,
but do not meet the criteria for the Bronze or Silver Medal of Valor. Members who are credited with
a save as a result of participation in a blood or organ transport mission will be awarded the basic
ribbon. A silver star will be attached to the ribbon in recognition of lifesaving actions other than
blood or organ transport. Members who were previously awarded the ribbon for a save other than
blood or organ transport should attach a silver star to the ribbon. Subsequent awards are denoted by
the addition of bronze or silver clasps to the ribbon.
Could you please explain the highlighted quote a little more so I can understand it more carefully?
Quote from: coastguard69 on May 03, 2013, 12:15:04 AM
h. Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving. Awarded to members who save a human life,
but do not meet the criteria for the Bronze or Silver Medal of Valor. Members who are credited with
a save as a result of participation in a blood or organ transport mission will be awarded the basic
ribbon. A silver star will be attached to the ribbon in recognition of lifesaving actions other than
blood or organ transport. Members who were previously awarded the ribbon for a save other than
blood or organ transport should attach a silver star to the ribbon. Subsequent awardis are denoted by
the addition of bronze or silver clasps to the ribbon.
Could you please explain the highlighted quote a little more so I can understand it more carefully?
CAP used to preform live tissue transports. This was eligible for the Save Ribbon.
I still don't understand. It's in the regs for the Lifesaving award, why would it be for another ribbon... btw the Save ribbon is the Lifesaving award
Quote from: coastguard69 on May 03, 2013, 12:15:04 AM
h. Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving. Awarded to members who save a human life,
but do not meet the criteria for the Bronze or Silver Medal of Valor. Members who are credited with
a save as a result of participation in a blood or organ transport mission will be awarded the basic
ribbon. A silver star will be attached to the ribbon in recognition of lifesaving actions other than
blood or organ transport. Members who were previously awarded the ribbon for a save other than
blood or organ transport should attach a silver star to the ribbon. Subsequent awards are denoted by
the addition of bronze or silver clasps to the ribbon.
Could you please explain the highlighted quote a little more so I can understand it more carefully?
One of my fellow cadets donated blood to the Red Cross. You opened with cadets who donated blood to the Red Cross. That is entirely different from being credited for participation in a blood or organ transplant
TRANSPORT MISSION. While donation is always to be commended, it has little risk to the donor whereas transport of the material, usually involves flight and much greater risk to the transporter team.
Quote from: coastguard69 on May 03, 2013, 12:27:33 AM
I still don't understand. It's in the regs for the Lifesaving award, why would it be for another ribbon... btw the Save ribbon is the Lifesaving award
TRANSPORT.
Donating blood or organs.......is not a TRANSPORT mission.
Now....to answer your question. The Lifesaving Award is approved at wing level. So do a CAPF 120 and send it up the chain for approval.
Lifesaving Award .. bringing that donated blood, on demand, to the facility in order to save a patient that is on the table, waiting.
Not making a deposit at the blood bank.
Perhaps donating ones own blood, specifically on call, at that location, to be transfused into the victim, would count. But a deposit at the bank. Not even close to the spirit of the regulation, or the literal interpretation.
Might be able to count the time towards the community service award.
Quote from: RiverAux on May 03, 2013, 03:38:10 AM
Might be able to count the time towards the community service award.
How do you count the time?
Time to fill the bag? Time at the facility? Home-home? With a max of six donations per year (whole blood), it would take me, respectively, 120 years, 10 years, and 5 years, to accumulate the 60 hours needed for the award, based solely on blood donation.
How about this scenario.
During the SUI.....a certain SNCO refrained from taking the life of several of the inspectors..........does that count?
:)
Quote from: coastguard69 on May 02, 2013, 11:16:12 PM
One of my fellow cadets donated blood to the Red Cross. The criteria for the award states (I believe) the blood transfusions and organ donations do count. So, my question is, has he earned the award? If so, how would he go about applying for the award?
Your cadet does not qualify for the Lifesaving Award by donating blood. The section you are quoting was intended for aircrews who flew blood and organ transport missions.
The award is intended to recognize those who actively engage in the saving a life. Things like doing CPR or rendering lifesaving aid at an accident or involved in a save on a SAR.
Does CAP even do TRANSPORT missions anymore?
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 03, 2013, 11:25:08 AM
Does CAP even do TRANSPORT missions anymore?
We always get one thrown in during our SAREVAL from the USAF folks.
Quote from: JeffDG on May 03, 2013, 12:43:25 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 03, 2013, 11:25:08 AM
Does CAP even do TRANSPORT missions anymore?
We always get one thrown in during our SAREVAL from the USAF folks.
Ditto. It is still considered part of our core mission competencies.
SIGN ME UP!!!
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 03, 2013, 11:25:08 AM
Does CAP even do TRANSPORT missions anymore?
I have done several blood transports and one "tissue" transport.
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 03, 2013, 11:25:08 AM
Does CAP even do TRANSPORT missions anymore?
If I recall, MTPs did not do the organ transports. I think you had to be Inst/Commercial rated and they were two pilot crews? If my kid was laying on the table waiting for his new kidney, I wouldnt want a 250hr private pilot bringing his organ. I dont know when the last time one was done for real. Now-a-days, I believe and EMS operator would get that call in CA.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 03, 2013, 03:05:05 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 03, 2013, 11:25:08 AM
Does CAP even do TRANSPORT missions anymore?
If I recall, MTPs did not do the organ transports. I think you had to be Inst/Commercial rated and they were two pilot crews? If my kid was laying on the table waiting for his new kidney, I wouldnt want a 250hr private pilot bringing his organ. I dont know when the last time one was done for real. Now-a-days, I believe and EMS operator would get that call in CA.
I'll take the 250 guys over no one. The scenarios are generally in the Armageddon range / Katrina / Sandy, etc., where the whole system is stressed and moving the blood / medicine / organ, whatever
is just one more thing on the list that no one is left to do. There are only so many assets to go around when things get legitimately dicey.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 03, 2013, 05:12:45 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on May 03, 2013, 03:38:10 AM
Might be able to count the time towards the community service award.
How do you count the time?
Time to fill the bag? Time at the facility? Home-home? With a max of six donations per year (whole blood), it would take me, respectively, 120 years, 10 years, and 5 years, to accumulate the 60 hours needed for the award, based solely on blood donation.
Its not like all the CSA time has to come from the same activity. So, a few hours a year giving blood could be put in the mix of other activities.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 03, 2013, 03:18:15 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 03, 2013, 03:05:05 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 03, 2013, 11:25:08 AM
Does CAP even do TRANSPORT missions anymore?
If I recall, MTPs did not do the organ transports. I think you had to be Inst/Commercial rated and they were two pilot crews? If my kid was laying on the table waiting for his new kidney, I wouldnt want a 250hr private pilot bringing his organ. I dont know when the last time one was done for real. Now-a-days, I believe and EMS operator would get that call in CA.
I'll take the 250 guys over no one. The scenarios are generally in the Armageddon range / Katrina / Sandy, etc., where the whole system is stressed and moving the blood / medicine / organ, whatever
is just one more thing on the list that no one is left to do. There are only so many assets to go around when things get legitimately dicey.
I think it was more of a best case scenario. Not a go/no-go requirement. Having been a former low time MTP private pilot myself, its scary what you DONT know about aviation at that point in your progression.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 03, 2013, 03:05:05 PMI wouldnt want a 250hr private pilot bringing his organ.
You wouldn't even know, at that stage of the involvement. That would be something that might come out later, when the kid wakes up, recovers, and is playing football, reminiscing on "those who helped him get here" and expressing a desire to meet them. Otherwise, it's all behind the scenes.
Sign me up!!! I know if my kid needed blood or Organs, I wouldnt care how many hours the Pilot has, if he/she is the only one that can do it, ill roll that dice.
Again, you wouldn't even know. "Hey, we can get this from Hoboken, but the only pilot is a guy that just got his license yesterday, do you want to do that?"
Doesn't work that way. That system is in place. If it comes down to me doing it as a CAP mission, I'm going to do it with the same professionalism I would give to the transporting an empty box during an evaluated exercise, or reverse the situation. The idea is to see if we can do it, to know that we can do it, and that we will do it, within our capacity the same way any other organization would.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 03, 2013, 03:05:05 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 03, 2013, 11:25:08 AM
Does CAP even do TRANSPORT missions anymore?
If I recall, MTPs did not do the organ transports. I think you had to be Inst/Commercial rated and they were two pilot crews? If my kid was laying on the table waiting for his new kidney, I wouldnt want a 250hr private pilot bringing his organ. I dont know when the last time one was done for real. Now-a-days, I believe and EMS operator would get that call in CA.
If my kid was laying on a table, I would want that organ escorted by no less than a dozen armed guards traveling at .99C in an indestructible vehicle. However, in reality, as long as the organ/blood/etc. gets to my kid safely and in time, I don't care if it's done by the Marx Brothers.
Quote from: a2capt on May 03, 2013, 03:54:15 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 03, 2013, 03:05:05 PMI wouldnt want a 250hr private pilot bringing his organ.
You wouldn't even know, at that stage of the involvement. That would be something that might come out later, when the kid wakes up, recovers, and is playing football, reminiscing on "those who helped him get here" and expressing a desire to meet them. Otherwise, it's all behind the scenes.
I dont think for a second that the patient would ever know or care as long as everything went well. I think the point is being missed. Let me re-phrase it. I would certainly hope CAP would not entrust that scenario with a private pilot. I dont care how many hours that PP has. That pilot needs to be able to handle anything that comes his way during that flight. Highest level of training possible, demonstrated instrument proficiency and competency. I dont want my kidney being diverted because the pilot was scared off by VFR low visibility and decided to land at an alternate 35 miles away. Again, I dont recall if there were any standards beyond MTP for that mission so its probably a go-nowhere discussion anyway.
Quote from: RiverAux on May 03, 2013, 03:38:10 AM
Might be able to count the time towards the community service award.
Donating blood is commendable and should be encouraged, but how is that considered community service? There is no work involved and the time spent donating blood is minimum. Other than the fact that the criteria for the Community Service ribbon is so vague (beyond the required 60 hours), I just don't see how donating blood would qualify as community
service.
And to the OP, it's obvious from reading the reg that the criteria for the Lifesaving Award refers to
transporting blood or life organs, not donating them.
I'd say that giving a pint of your blood is a more significant benefit to the community as a whole than probably a lot of things done for that particular award. I'd rather someone gave blood than spent two hours picking up trash along the side of the road.
Quote from: RiverAux on May 03, 2013, 08:06:38 PM
I'd say that giving a pint of your blood is a more significant benefit to the community as a whole than probably a lot of things done for that particular award. I'd rather someone gave blood than spent two hours picking up trash along the side of the road.
The question is not whether giving blood "is a more significant benefit to the community", but whether it could be considered community service in the strictest sense of the word.
Quote from: CAPR 39-3i. Community Service Ribbon. Awarded to members who complete 60 hours of community service outside of Civil Air Patrol. The service must be verified by a volunteer coordinator. Community service projects conducted by CAP units do not qualify for this recognition. A bronze clasp may be added for each additional 60 hours of community service.
I've been involved with several volunteer organizations and have performed many different types of community service. I've also donated blood and can tell you that both of these are two different things.
Just for argument's sake.
You have to be 17 in most states to donate (16 in a few).
It only takes about 10-15 minutes total to donate blood, so at that rate, you'd have to give about 240 pints in order to be eligible for a CSR. That's about 40 years.
They can tape the CSR to your CAP retirement plaque.
If a given commander were generous enough to grant 1 hour of CSR time for each pint, and the member gave blood at the maximum rate allowed, it would still be roughly 10 years to make the 60 (depending on the blood service's policies).
Most commanders with common sense would thank the member, tell them to enjoy their coffee mugs and free ice cream, but they aren't getting a CSR.
Why have two people now gone to the idea that it isn't worth doing if you can't get the CSR based only on that single activity?
So what if they do 59 hours of trash pick up and 1 hour of donating blood.
Quote from: RiverAux on May 03, 2013, 03:34:59 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on May 03, 2013, 05:12:45 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on May 03, 2013, 03:38:10 AM
Might be able to count the time towards the community service award.
How do you count the time?
Time to fill the bag? Time at the facility? Home-home? With a max of six donations per year (whole blood), it would take me, respectively, 120 years, 10 years, and 5 years, to accumulate the 60 hours needed for the award, based solely on blood donation.
Its not like all the CSA time has to come from the same activity. So, a few hours a year giving blood could be put in the mix of other activities.
You didn't answer the basic question -
How do you count the time?Until you determine that, the rest is irrelevant.
Why not the actual time of laying down to give the most blood? I think that Eclipse summed it up, at 25 minutes the most a donor can give at one time. What is the interval? Two weeks? One month?
Assuming it is every month, the person will accumulate one hour giving blood every four months. Is that reasonable?
Flyer
Quote from: flyer333555 on May 03, 2013, 10:06:49 PM
Why not the actual time of laying down to give the most blood? I think that Eclipse summed it up, at 25 minutes the most a donor can give at one time. What is the interval? Two weeks? One month?
56-60 days depending on the blood service.
Quote from: flyer333555 on May 03, 2013, 10:06:49 PM
Why not the actual time of laying down to give the most blood? ... Is that reasonable?
According to CAPR 39-3, the time has to be verified by a volunteer coordinator. And since "laying down" to donate blood is not considered volunteer work...
You can do whole blood once every eight weeks. Red cell donations are limited to once every sixteen weeks, but count as a double donation. That means you can donate six times a year (6 x 8 weeks = 48 weeks). Plasma donations are more frequent, but the requirements are more stringent, so it's not for everyone.
As for time on the table, it takes me 5 minutes to fill the bag (500 ml), but I bleed fast. Ten minutes is probably closer to average. It takes about as long to to the paperwork and prep as you spend on the table. Add 15 minutes in the wait area before you can leave.
I just don't see it as a viable way to add hours for a CSM. As I stated above, even using door-door numbers you can only get 10 or 12 hours a year. Hardly worth the tracking effort.
I agree with those stating it is not worth. Then verifying? Let's suppose you donate blood on days abc with company 1. Donate blood on days efg with company 2. Etc. If you do not donate all the blood with the same blood bank, you would end having to call a ream of companies to verify all those 60 hours...
When it is much easier to go to the corner church to staff a soup line for several hours several days, then go to the public library to volunteer some time at one of their after-school programs. And there are hundreds more such programs...
Well, most of you do know that. :angel:
Flyer
The CSR ribbon is lame to begin with. If I was going to trim out CAP fluff, the CSR would be #1. Lets not make it worse by suggesting one be awarded for donating blood.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 03, 2013, 10:48:13 PM
The CSR ribbon is lame to begin with. If I was going to trim out CAP fluff, the CSR would be #1. Lets not make it worse by suggesting one be awarded for donating blood.
Got to disagree here...The CSR ribbon is one of the smartest thing CAP had done......we want our members to donate their time to other community services......so we reward them with a ribbon. Simple, straight forward, 98% black and white......one of the few CAP things that are that way.
The CSR would make more sense if the criteria was community service linked to CAP service, i.e. CAP Squadron X volunteered as a unit to do Habitat for Humanity or to collect supplies for victims of a disaster or something like that. Unfortunately, that is the type of service that doesn't count for this award.
In principle, I wouldn't be opposed to the award as it stands as long as two conditions were met:
- CAPR 39-3 was more specific about the qualifying criteria, i.e. which type of community service counts towards the award.
- Service as part of membership in a different organization didn't count towards credit for this award.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 03, 2013, 10:53:50 PM....we want our members to donate their time to other community services......
Says who? (Yeah, I know, NHQ). I'm definitely with FP here, but that's no secret.
This is another cast-off from CAP modeling the military. CAP >IS< a community service, and as a commander, my first job is getting the membership to
spend more time and effort in CAP, not elsewhere. We want and need them in uniform, performing
our missions. This is akin to Microsoft paying
people to work at Apple. A member's currency is their time, and we need as much of it as we can get.
When you're in the military, its advantageous for all parties to encourage community outreach and service, for starters the first place they serve is usually
on-base or near base to their fellow servicemembers. This is no different then a corporation encouraging local service - good PR, everyone benefits,
and it isn't a conflict of interest.
Just the opposite in CAP. The CSR specifically calls out non-CAP service, so there's zero PR benefit, no benefit to the organization, and it competes for
CAP time. Those 60 hours could be spent training, testing, and getting ready to perform the missions that are actually a part of CAP's mandate.
CAP is a volunteer organization that encourages us to get out and volunteer more? Didnt know that.
...and advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation.
Quote from: a2capt on May 04, 2013, 01:12:10 AM
...and advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation.
In
CAP.
..and a CAP unit providing service, as a unit, to a community event, organization, etc. Sounds like "In CAP" to me.
But if our Award criteria also allows the member to choose other organizations to give service to, why do we penalize them?
I will say, at least at our unit, the ratio to unit organized projects that count towards this time, and members serving on their own is about 95% CAP. But if they help out at their church, why shouldn't they get it?
If someones willing to document it.
Quote from: a2capt on May 04, 2013, 02:21:02 AMBut if our Award criteria also allows the member to choose other organizations to give service to, why do we penalize them?
Who's being penalized?
There's a difference between "penalizing" members and the misguided idea that CAP's mandate is to
encourage members to spend time not in CAP. It's not, and even if it was, we haven't had the manpower for that in 10 or 15 years.
I'm a member of the Red Cross. Does training and taking classes with the red cross count as CS?
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 02:43:50 AM
I'm a member of the Red Cross. Does training and taking classes with the red cross count as CS?
I'd say "no", but it's your commander's call.
We have another (outdated) dec that is supposed to recognize relevent ARC training.
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 02:43:50 AM
I'm a member of the Red Cross. Does training and taking classes with the red cross count as CS?
Yes.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 03, 2013, 11:06:02 PM
The CSR would make more sense if the criteria was community service linked to CAP service, i.e. CAP Squadron X volunteered as a unit to do Habitat for Humanity or to collect supplies for victims of a disaster or something like that. Unfortunately, that is the type of service that doesn't count for this award.
In principle, I wouldn't be opposed to the award as it stands as long as two conditions were met:
- CAPR 39-3 was more specific about the qualifying criteria, i.e. which type of community service counts towards the award.
- Service as part of membership in a different organization didn't count towards credit for this award.
I would agree with you there as well.
I would add a Community Service component to both Cadet and Senior Member progression.
I would also encourage squadrons to organize and participate as units in local community service not related to normal CAP activities. AKA the Boy Scout Model.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 04, 2013, 01:31:11 AM
Quote from: a2capt on May 04, 2013, 01:12:10 AM
...and advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation.
In CAP.
Ah.......No. But I agree that we should encourage our members to do more with CAP.....I wonder if we have a way of recognizing them for their service.....oh wait we do........let's give them decorations for doing their jobs and helping out with encampment, ES, AE.
Let's not be stingy with those decorations because "they are just doing their jobs" when so many of our member DON'T do anything beyond just showing up for meetings and responding to ES calls.
We have gone around and around on this subject before. :)
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 02:43:50 AM
I'm a member of the Red Cross. Does training and taking classes with the red cross count as CS?
I would say no; training and taking classes is
not community service. Working for the community
is.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 04, 2013, 03:46:27 AM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 02:43:50 AM
I'm a member of the Red Cross. Does training and taking classes with the red cross count as CS?
I would say no; training and taking classes is not community service. Working for the community is.
Understandable. I would think though that these classes to be on the Disaster Team are Required before you can be on the team. These classes total to 10 hours or more of your "Volunteer" time. So I guess best bet would be to ask my Commander :)
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 03:50:09 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 04, 2013, 03:46:27 AM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 02:43:50 AM
I'm a member of the Red Cross. Does training and taking classes with the red cross count as CS?
I would say no; training and taking classes is not community service. Working for the community is.
Understandable. I would think though that these classes to be on the Disaster Team are Required before you can be on the team. These classes total to 10 hours or more of your "Volunteer" time. So I guess best bet would be to ask my Commander :)
Because the regulation is so vague about what constitutes acceptable community service, your commander may or may not accept this. However, if we were to accept training as community service, then taking a first aid class would qualify as such. I still believe it doesn't (or at least it shouldn't).
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 04, 2013, 03:46:27 AM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 02:43:50 AM
I'm a member of the Red Cross. Does training and taking classes with the red cross count as CS?
I would say no; training and taking classes is not community service. Working for the community is.
Taking a Disaster Preparedness class is not community service?
Teaching a disaster preparedness class/CPR/First Aid class is not community service?
I have to disagree.
We need to make these thing easier to get....not harder.
As it is now.....it is such a PITA to get the blood CSR almost no one gets them.
Since anything that CAP organizes does not count.....in removes any incentive for squadrons.....as squadrons....to do any community service.
Since the squadron does not do it......and it is not required.....we are working against ourselves.
Service to Community, State and Nation.....yes that is our primarily focus.....and we as CAP provide a lot of the service through our CP, ES and AE program....and I agree that we as squadrons should keep that focus.
But there are so many other avenues of community service that we simply ignore. Things that don't take a lot of time and man power. that a squadron of 10 or 100 can do easily.
Adopting a section of highway, unit visits to old folk homes, planting flags at veteran cemeteries, assisting with marathons, and other public events. Things we do anyway but because they are organized by the squadron don't count.
Bottom line......CAP as a whole in community service.......all us SM can use our CAP time to get the Presidential volunteer service award....but not our cadets. They are the community that we are serving. We want our cadets to go out and serve their community. ES is one area they are actively serving their community.....but that does not count.
By organizing it ourselves or by volunteering as a unit.....and by requiring some level of participation as part of our PD/CP programs.....we get the PR benefit of being seen as CAP doing service, we teach that community service has rewards and maybe instill a sense of community service in our members.
I know that it worked for me as a Boy Scout.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 04, 2013, 04:10:14 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 04, 2013, 03:46:27 AM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 02:43:50 AM
I'm a member of the Red Cross. Does training and taking classes with the red cross count as CS?
I would say no; training and taking classes is not community service. Working for the community is.
Taking a Disaster Preparedness class is not community service?
Teaching a disaster preparedness class/CPR/First Aid class is not community service?
In my opinion, teaching a disaster preparedness or first aid class could be considered community service; taking one would not.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 04, 2013, 04:10:14 AM...all us SM can use our CAP time to get the Presidential volunteer service award....
OK, now if you want to talk about a REAL waste of time and energy, that's the PVSA.
Nothing says "well done" like an award you earn by osmosis, self-certify, have to buy yourself.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 04, 2013, 04:33:05 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 04, 2013, 04:10:14 AM...all us SM can use our CAP time to get the Presidential volunteer service award....
OK, now if you want to talk about a REAL waste of time and energy, that's the PVSA.
Nothing says "well done" like an award you earn by osmosis, self-certify, have to buy yourself.
Ah....but you have missed the real point.....
Yes...you can self-certify, and buy yourself.....but the point was for companies, and other organizations to do the certifying and buying to encourage their people to do good work.
They kept the costs very cheap for the simple reason.
The Military Outstanding Volunteer Service medal is the same thing.
It costs your squadron maybe a few hours to do the paperwork and run it over to the wing commander for approval and then they buy the medal from supply (maybe $20 for the whole presentation thing) and give it out at the monthly commander's call.
They promote volunteer service with minimum effort and cost on their part.
Awards that everyone receives by simply showing up have zero value - it's the "participation trophy" mentality that
is so pervasive in team sports these days.
I never viewed it as something aimed towards companies, but OK, I suppose, at least it makes semi-sense in their context
since yo would not be self-certifying and someone else buys the pin.
But for an organization like CAP, it's meaningless. >Every< member qualifies at the lowest level just by showing up
for weekly meetings, and anyone reasonably active will probably get silver lifetime.
I'd rather have a Venti.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 04, 2013, 04:50:07 AM
Awards that everyone receives by simply showing up have zero value - it's the "participation trophy" mentality that
is so pervasive in team sports these days.
I never viewed it as something aimed towards companies, but OK, I suppose, at least it makes semi-sense in their context
since yo would not be self-certifying and someone else buys the pin.
But for an organization like CAP, it's meaningless. >Every< member qualifies at the lowest level just by showing up
for weekly meetings, and anyone reasonably active will probably get silver lifetime.
I'd rather have a Venti.
Not "everyone" is receiving them....as not everyone is doing the job.
And while yes I think CAP does not need to get into the PVSM program.....we have our own......but it is a good thing to encourage MORE volunteer service outside of CAP......even if we don't require it.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 04, 2013, 04:56:04 AMNot "everyone" is receiving them....as not everyone is doing the job.
100%? No, but if you're active enough to be considered an asset somewhere in CAP, the only reason you don't have a PVSA is because you didn't put in for it.
Adults qualify at 100 hours - that doesn't even require a meeting every week in most cases.
When CAP gets to a point that it's able to sustain it's own operations and missions, then it can worry about helping outside of CAP. We're far from that on a national level.
I have to admit, despite my disdain for ticket punching, every time I go to that website, I'm inclined
to submit myself for the awards - which goes to your point about what people will do for a little bauble.
That badge looks like a challenge coin!
Quote from: Eclipse on May 04, 2013, 05:04:56 AM
I have to admit, despite my disdain for ticket punching, every time I go to that website, I'm inclined
to submit myself for the awards - which goes to your point about what people will do for a little bauble.
What Website?
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 03:33:02 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 04, 2013, 05:04:56 AM
I have to admit, despite my disdain for ticket punching, every time I go to that website, I'm inclined
to submit myself for the awards - which goes to your point about what people will do for a little bauble.
What Website?
The President's Volunteer Service Award (http://www.presidentialserviceawards.gov) website (link included).
Ahh, lol. I went to the website. I could prolly get the bronze award within 1 week. But, I will wait until 2016 to apply.
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 03:33:02 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 04, 2013, 05:04:56 AM
I have to admit, despite my disdain for ticket punching, every time I go to that website, I'm inclined
to submit myself for the awards - which goes to your point about what people will do for a little bauble.
What Website?
http://www.presidentialserviceawards.gov/ (http://www.presidentialserviceawards.gov/)
(Though it appears to be down at the moment - was working last night.)
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 03:40:59 PM
Ahh, lol. I went to the website. I could prolly get the bronze award within 1 week. But, I will wait until 2016 to apply.
I would probably wait until after 20 January 2017. I hope.
Quote from: ol'fido on May 05, 2013, 01:19:35 AM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 03:40:59 PM
Ahh, lol. I went to the website. I could prolly get the bronze award within 1 week. But, I will wait until 2016 to apply.
I would probably wait until after 20 January 2017. I hope.
Really??? You guys let politics decide if you're going to serve your community? ::)
No, I still serve my Community, going to take that long to get the Gold Medal, and, I don't want something with said signature on it. Yes I meant 2017 :)
Quote from: ol'fido on May 05, 2013, 01:19:35 AM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 03:40:59 PM
Ahh, lol. I went to the website. I could prolly get the bronze award within 1 week. But, I will wait until 2016 to apply.
I would probably wait until after 20 January 2017. I hope.
You'd prefer Hillary's sig on there?
Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2013, 02:48:10 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on May 05, 2013, 01:19:35 AM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 03:40:59 PM
Ahh, lol. I went to the website. I could prolly get the bronze award within 1 week. But, I will wait until 2016 to apply.
I would probably wait until after 20 January 2017. I hope.
You'd prefer Hillary's sig on there?
LOL.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2013, 02:48:10 AM
Quote from: ol'fido on May 05, 2013, 01:19:35 AM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 03:40:59 PM
Ahh, lol. I went to the website. I could prolly get the bronze award within 1 week. But, I will wait until 2016 to apply.
I would probably wait until after 20 January 2017. I hope.
You'd prefer Hillary's sig on there?
No, that's why I said I hope. Yeah, the likelihood of me actually putting in for this thing is about the same as them moving IL wing headquarters to the city of Macedonia, IL, "Cultural Center of the Known Universe".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia,_Illinois (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia,_Illinois)
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 03, 2013, 03:05:05 PMIf my kid was laying on the table waiting for his new kidney, I wouldnt want a 250hr private pilot bringing his organ.
You really should be happy he/she is getting a kidney.
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 02:43:50 AM
I'm a member of the Red Cross. Does training and taking classes with the red cross count as CS?
I was a policeman for 25 years. Do I get a Silver Medal of Valor, Bronze Medal of Valor and the Lifesaving Awards for the stuff I did on my day job? 8)
Quote from: Private Investigator on May 05, 2013, 04:58:11 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 02:43:50 AM
I'm a member of the Red Cross. Does training and taking classes with the red cross count as CS?
I was a policeman for 25 years. Do I get a Silver Medal of Valor, Bronze Medal of Valor and the Lifesaving Awards for the stuff I did on my day job? 8)
Well, the Redcross is not my Day Job, so I think training should be considered volunteering. Do they not have Police life saving awards? I got an Valor award in the Military, i'm not claiming I should get a medal of valor through CAP for it.
The Red Cross has a whole slew of their own awards and recognition, as many or more than CAP.
For example in the case of a cadet giving blood, they would be eligible for the "Red Cord".
Training is not service, in the ARC, CAP, or anywhere else. Training is preparation for service.
Fair Enough, Even if the training takes 10-12 plus hours? I'm not expecting to get hours, just asking the opinions of what people think.
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 05, 2013, 05:51:17 PM
Fair Enough, Even if the training takes 10-12 plus hours? I'm not expecting to get hours, just asking the opinions of what people think.
As far as I'm concerned, anyway. Most worthwhile training takes at least a full day, but that just gets you ready to actually
do something.
Quote from: Private Investigator on May 05, 2013, 04:58:11 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 02:43:50 AM
I'm a member of the Red Cross. Does training and taking classes with the red cross count as CS?
I was a policeman for 25 years. Do I get a Silver Medal of Valor, Bronze Medal of Valor and the Lifesaving Awards for the stuff I did on my day job? 8)
Oh BOY...... we discussed that several years ago. The overwhelming CAPTalk position and the CAP position is that if you are getting paid to be brave it doesnt count. ::) If I did the same act off the clock I would qualify. On the clock.... no qualify. I guess people think that while you are pulling a guy out of a fully engulfed car fire by yourself, you are thinkin' "Heck yeah baby.... Im getting PAID to do this!" Contrary to popular urban legend, public safety employees are not required to put themselves in danger or risk their lives for anything, yet they still do. Sorry if I crushed anyones romantic misconceptions.
My thought was that if your agency took the position that what you did earned a lifesaving or MoV then you should qualify to put in through CAP. That would keep public safety employees/ CAP members from putting in for a medal every time they did CPR on someone. CAP didnt think so. So it came down to "Well, thats not fair because your job puts you in those situations." ::) (Yes.... that was an actual statement)
So my position changed to, "Well then if thats the justification then CAP Lifesaving and MoV's should only be awarded for acts while on a CAP mission."
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 05, 2013, 06:05:05 PMMy thought was that if your agency took the position that what you did earned a lifesaving or MoV then you should qualify to put in through CAP.
That's a reasonable position, but what's the point of every place you have an ID card handing you another decoration? I'd hazard the one from the department has the most meaning and
just leave it at that.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 05, 2013, 06:05:05 PM
So my position changed to, "Well then if thats the justification then CAP Lifesaving and MoV's should only be awarded for acts while on a CAP mission."
Where do I sign?
I'm strongly in favor of the only ting being worn on any CAP uniform, in any form, be CAP-related. It's really the only thing relevent.
Quote from: Private Investigator on May 05, 2013, 04:58:11 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 02:43:50 AM
I'm a member of the Red Cross. Does training and taking classes with the red cross count as CS?
I was a policeman for 25 years. Do I get a Silver Medal of Valor, Bronze Medal of Valor and the Lifesaving Awards for the stuff I did on my day job? 8)
No.....or yes....depends.....apples and oranges.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2013, 05:43:21 PM
Training is not service, in the ARC, CAP, or anywhere else. Training is preparation for service.
Disagree.....WAY WAY WAY DISAGREE!
Training is part of service. You can't serve if you don't train!
Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2013, 07:41:01 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on May 05, 2013, 04:58:11 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 04, 2013, 02:43:50 AM
I'm a member of the Red Cross. Does training and taking classes with the red cross count as CS?
I was a policeman for 25 years. Do I get a Silver Medal of Valor, Bronze Medal of Valor and the Lifesaving Awards for the stuff I did on my day job? 8)
No.....or yes....depends.....apples and oranges.
I agree
Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2013, 07:43:09 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2013, 05:43:21 PM
Training is not service, in the ARC, CAP, or anywhere else. Training is preparation for service.
Disagree.....WAY WAY WAY DISAGREE!
Training is part of service. You can't serve if you don't train!
Interesting tangent thought - how much (ratio? Hours?) does CAP spend training vs doing jobs for the community? I don't know, what mission codes would fall to service, training and other (o-flights)?
Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2013, 07:43:09 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2013, 05:43:21 PM
Training is not service, in the ARC, CAP, or anywhere else. Training is preparation for service.
Disagree.....WAY WAY WAY DISAGREE!
Training is part of service. You can't serve if you don't train!
If I take a CPR course with the Red Cross, I received training. I did
NOT volunteer or perform any service with the Red Cross. At most, I prepared myself to provide a service in the future, which may or may not be with the Red Cross. There is no commitment of time beyond the training itself and no immediate benefit to my community at that specific time. Furthermore, a Red Cross instructor is not a volunteer coordinator. Hours spent are considered training hours
NOT volunteer hours.
Quote from: bflynn on May 07, 2013, 05:41:44 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2013, 07:43:09 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2013, 05:43:21 PM
Training is not service, in the ARC, CAP, or anywhere else. Training is preparation for service.
Disagree.....WAY WAY WAY DISAGREE!
Training is part of service. You can't serve if you don't train!
Interesting tangent thought - how much (ratio? Hours?) does CAP spend training vs doing jobs for the community? I don't know, what mission codes would fall to service, training and other (o-flights)?
Just in my own experience.......I am about 300 to one for training to operational hours.....a lot depends on OPS tempo and timing.
^ Yep.
This misconception about "training" being service is a big problem for CAP.
We have far too many members who burn all sorts of time and gas on "training", and never show up for the real work.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 07, 2013, 05:53:48 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 05, 2013, 07:43:09 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 05, 2013, 05:43:21 PM
Training is not service, in the ARC, CAP, or anywhere else. Training is preparation for service.
Disagree.....WAY WAY WAY DISAGREE!
Training is part of service. You can't serve if you don't train!
If I take a CPR course with the Red Cross, I received training. I did NOT volunteer or perform any service with the Red Cross. At most, I prepared myself to provide a service in the future, which may or may not be with the Red Cross. There is no commitment of time beyond the training itself and no immediate benefit to my community at that specific time. Furthermore, a Red Cross instructor is not a volunteer coordinator. Hours spent are considered training hours NOT volunteer hours.
Depends on the training and what the intended use of it.
Need CPR for your job.....then no. CPR as part of say a CERT certification.....then yes. In that you intend to deploy or be ready to deploy if called by taking the training.
That is how I view CAP ES training time. We volunteer our time to be ready to volunteer our service when called.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 07, 2013, 06:04:23 PM
^ Yep.
This misconception about "training" being service is a big problem for CAP.
We have far too many members who burn all sorts of time and gas on "training", and never show up for the real work.
I concur. We have Squadrons with planes that do not want to fly them after dark, holidays or on work days.
For Katrina we was asked to make a list of people who can go down for a week (7 days) and we got three out of 600. ::)
Quote from: Private Investigator on May 08, 2013, 07:47:44 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 07, 2013, 06:04:23 PM
^ Yep.
This misconception about "training" being service is a big problem for CAP.
We have far too many members who burn all sorts of time and gas on "training", and never show up for the real work.
I concur. We have Squadrons with planes that do not want to fly them after dark, holidays or on work days.
For Katrina we was asked to make a list of people who can go down for a week (7 days) and we got three out of 600. ::)
3 out of 600, is not that bad, but for a whole week? Maybe it you asked for 2-3 days you would have got more of a respsone. I cannot take a week to volunteer because of my employer, and because i have a Fresh Kid a the house ATM.
Illinois sent 14 for a week to Katrina.
Thought it was 14. My bad.
Im Part of Team Rubicon, Red Cross and of Course CAP. Busy Busy Busy
Quote from: Private Investigator on May 08, 2013, 07:47:44 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 07, 2013, 06:04:23 PM
^ Yep.
This misconception about "training" being service is a big problem for CAP.
We have far too many members who burn all sorts of time and gas on "training", and never show up for the real work.
I concur. We have Squadrons with planes that do not want to fly them after dark, holidays or on work days.
For Katrina we was asked to make a list of people who can go down for a week (7 days) and we got three out of 600. ::)
Welcome to volunteerism.
I get 3 weeks of vacation a year. Just three weeks. I could take unpaid leave.....but I gots bills to pay.
So it is not uncommon for members to say the same thing.
Unless you're retired or unemployed, that's going to be the case for most of us. I get four weeks a year and will be taking two this summer to attend two back-to-back sessions at NESA. This is not something I would be able to do every time.
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 08, 2013, 01:06:29 PM
3 out of 600, is not that bad, but for a whole week? Maybe it you asked for 2-3 days you would have got more of a respsone.
With two to three days, by the time you get everyone situated you are moving them out for the next relief. Because you are considering travel time in those two or three days? So when said and done you got a full 8 hour day on base staff or two or three sorties from a flight crew and it is time to send them home.
Travel shouldnt take more 8 hours from Illionis to New Jersey/New York area. More like 3 days then. 2 days of Volunteering, then travel day. I did not calculate Travel that much. So Friday night leave, Volunteer Sat and Sun, Drive Back Monday?
Disasters don't just happen on weekends, and if you bare flying there are issues of duty day to deal with.
That is true, but there's so much you can ask of volunteers. I'm fortunate enough with my job that I have some flexibility to take time off if needed, but not everyone is so fortunate. And even I have limitations at times. I already spend a big chunk of vacation, weekends and evenings doing CAP work and training. My family, while very understanding and supportive of CAP, do question from time to time how much time I spend away from home. And we're not even talking major emergencies or disasters here, which I would do my best to support as well.
IL is 16 hour drive away from NYC...
First, everyone needs to deal with their own life circumstance, obviously. But within that paradigm, you have to be realistic in your
expectations. Saying that you have the ability to attend 2-weeks of NESA, but then because of that you can't respond to real
emergencies kind of misses the point.
This brings us again, back to the "need more people". If we were fully staffed and manned, the need for cross-country, or even
intra-state drive would be limited to all but the very largest of incidents. Perhaps key personnel or assets might need to be moved,
but the majority of localized flooding, missing persons, and similar missions could be handled from one or two units without having to drag
people 1/2 way across the state.
The opportunities to serve for a few hours would greatly increase, since we'd have the depth at position to allow people to rotate out in the same
way the professionals do.
The other factor, and a BIG one, is NHQ's continued and ongoing conservative nature in deploying members to large missions. We don't go soon
enough, and we don't send enough people or assets, and rarely to we send logistics in ahead or with the people going in. Everything is
last minute, with shoestring budgets and few support assets, and at the most bare-bones level of manpower. We work the few who go to the
level of exhaustion and just expect they will stay for the duration, with no real plan for rotating personnel over long distances.
The same vehicles used for in/out transport (especially the planes), are used for mission sorties, which in itself cause more problems.
Meanwhile, in far too many cases, since key players are gone from home squadrons, those ops grind to a halt as well, as if nothing else is going on
in CAP except for "x" (be it NESA, HMRS, encampments, missions, etc.).
Rinse, repeat.
Yes, getting off your job a Using Vacation Time is a Big Deal to most of us. I do understand that some mission we cannot go on, But, Thats why we get involved in our Local DR, that was its close you can spend a few days, and still go back to work.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2013, 02:23:42 PM
Saying that you have the ability to attend 2-weeks of NESA, but then because of that you can't respond to real
emergencies kind of misses the point.
Where did you get that? I never said that because I was attending 2 weeks of NESA I couldn't respond to real emergencies. I'm sacrificing 2 weeks of vacation and family time to get training that is not currently available in my area so that I can fill a need in my squadron and group and be able to better respond to real emergencies.
It's not specific to you - I just hear that a lot.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2013, 03:57:05 PM
It's not specific to you - I just hear that a lot.
Funny you say "it's not specific to [me]" since you used me as an example. As you well know, you can't perform certain ES tasks or duties if you're not trained and qualified and training takes a fair amount of time and resources. People train now so that they can be of service later.
You always talk about the "need for more people". But how do you attract these people? And better yet, how do you retain them? CAP can be a big commitment of both time and money. You've said in the past that their incentive is (or should be) "service", but everyone's expectation of service is different.
If someone has a week to dedicate to an "encampment", as you mentioned on a previous post, and then can't take time off for an unforeseeable disaster, how is that on the member? He or she volunteered to support one of CAP's three missions. The member did his or her "service". Let's now use your "NESA" example. If a person is not available to participate in a disaster response now because he or she spent two weeks at NESA, why should that be held negatively against that member? That same member, now trained and qualified in new skills, may be of value in a future incident. That's why we train; so that we can serve and apply those new skills in the future. That is part of our volunteer service.
Who said it was negative on the member - it's a negative on the organization.
Members should not be made to feel that their choices negatively impact the organization's ability to perform its mission. The USAF, ARC, or even your local PD/FD
don't call off activities or take the phone off the hook because "Jim went to ICS 400 class so he can't IC the mission." But this is not unheard of in CAP.
If you joined CAP to support the CP, only, OK, fair enough, but then don't count yourself in the ES group, take personal street-cred for that involvement, and
more critically, don't stand in the way of others when they tell you they want "more" or "different". Just because "you" don't do it, doesn't mean the "unit" doesn't
do it, and I will continue to make the argument that, while individual members have the right to make choices about which mission to pick from the menu, Unit CCs
don't, and they are failing their mandate when they pick and choose one area of emphasis of others.
More people means more opportunity for everyone, but more importantly, less stress about viability. As it stands today, in most wings, the same couple hundred people
do everything, they may wander into and out of activities here and there, but mostly it's the same core group running, planning, and doing everything.
Why? Because they know if they don't show up, it's possible no one will. To these people who give hundreds of hours each year, and haven't had a "vacation" in a decade,
it's hard to feel sympathy for members who show up once in a while, and then complain when "CAP doesn't do anything..."
How do we fix that? More people. Period.
A concerted, national-level, sustained recruiting drive with real expectations of performance and growth in every unit, while at the same time pressing on commanders
to start "getting bothered" to do their jobs and perform our missions properly. It needs to be more then a brochure and a suggestion to drop a table at a random airshow.
It needs to be treated with the same mission-critical attitude that the safety, finance, and other administrivial mandates are handled. "Do it, do it now, or expect to be replaced."
Seriously, the fix is literally YOU, whether that means more effort, more delegation, or better management of your particular job, the next time something isn't done,
instead of looking around and up and falling back on "X" isn't doing their job, take the initiative and make it happen instead of resting on "That's wing's, group's, national's job."
75-90% of all that can and does happen in CAP has to be initiated and wrench-turned at the unit level, because that's where the people, the resources, and the missions are.
The problem is that the very commanders who are failing to accept the need to grow their units, quickly, are also the ones not really interested in doing much of anything,
so it's a somewhat circular problem.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2013, 04:49:26 PM
Who said it was negative on the member - it's a negative on the organization.
This is what you actually said:
Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2013, 02:23:42 PMSaying that you have the ability to attend 2-weeks of NESA, but then because of that you can't respond to real emergencies kind of misses the point.
It sounds to me that you were talking about the member, not the organization. But if that's not what you meant, then I appreciate the clarification.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2013, 04:49:26 PM
Members should not be made to feel that their choices negatively impact the organization's ability to perform its mission. The USAF, ARC, or even your local PD/FD don't call off activities or take the phone off the hook because "Jim went to ICS 400 class so he can't IC the mission." But this is not unheard of in CAP.
The other organizations that you mentioned are not made up of unpaid volunteers. Keep that in mind.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2013, 04:49:26 PM
If you joined CAP to support the CP, only, OK, fair enough, but then don't count yourself in the ES group, take personal street-cred for that involvement, and more critically, don't stand in the way of others when they tell you they want "more" or "different". Just because "you" don't do it, doesn't mean the "unit" doesn't do it, and I will continue to make the argument that, while individual members have the right to make choices about which mission to pick from the menu, Unit CCs don't, and they are failing their mandate when they pick and choose one area of emphasis of others.
I assume that you are talking about things you've experienced with commanders. I'm not sure I'm following when you talk about members who only want to do one thing, such as CP. It seems to me that you're mixing apples and oranges here. Members can participate in as little or as much of CAP missions and programs as they want. They certainly CAN do both CP and ES if they have the availability and disposition. What's your point here?
Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2013, 04:49:26 PM
More people means more opportunity for everyone, but more importantly, less stress about viability. As it stands today, in most wings, the same couple hundred people do everything, they may wander into and out of activities here and there, but mostly it's the same core group running, planning, and doing everything.
Why? Because they know if they don't show up, it's possible no one will. To these people who give hundreds of hours each year, and haven't had a "vacation" in a decade, it's hard to feel sympathy for members who show up once in a while, and then complain when "CAP doesn't do anything..."
How do we fix that? More people. Period.
Having more people may help, but I'm not entirely sure it would solve all problems as you're always saying. These additional volunteers will most likely have jobs too or school or other commitments. I have about 90 people in my squadron. Active participation varies from time to time. But there's always a core of people that seems to do the bulk of the work. This has been true of every organization I've ever belonged to.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2013, 04:49:26 PM
Seriously, the fix is literally YOU, whether that means more effort, more delegation, or better management of your particular job, the next time something isn't done, instead of looking around and up and falling back on "X" isn't doing their job, take the initiative and make it happen instead of resting on "That's wing's, group's, national's job."
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I'm the fix for what? Getting more people? I have almost 90 members. How many more do I need?
Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2013, 04:49:26 PM
75-90% of all that can and does happen in CAP has to be initiated and wrench-turned at the unit level, because that's where the people, the resources, and the missions are.
The problem is that the very commanders who are failing to accept the need to grow their units, quickly, are also the ones not really interested in doing much of anything, so it's a somewhat circular problem.
Ok, so the fix is the unit commander then. I'm a bit confused with what you're trying to say.
We can definitely use more people in CAP. We can also use more and better training. Heck, I'll even agree with you that some commanders could do a better job of growing and improving their units. But the problems in CAP are more complex that you make them to be; and so are the fixes. Getting more people may be a turn in the right direction, but in and of itself will solve no problems.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 09, 2013, 07:31:04 PMMembers can participate in as little or as much of CAP missions and programs as they want. They certainly CAN do both CP and ES if they have the availability and disposition. What's your point here?
Yes,
members can, the organization cannot, and commanders should not have the option.
As a commander you have a mandate to accomplish the whole mission, not just the parts you personally like or think are important. So to that end, you
find the people within your unit to fill as much of the mandate as possible, and then you lead others to working on things which aren't as much "fun",
or recruit new members to fill those roles.
"No one wants to do it." Is not an acceptable answer for why a unit isn't doing "x".
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 09, 2013, 07:31:04 PM
Having more people may help, but I'm not entirely sure it would solve all problems as you're always saying. These additional volunteers will most likely have jobs too or school or other commitments. I have about 90 people in my squadron. Active participation varies from time to time. But there's always a core of people that seems to do the bulk of the work. This has been true of every organization I've ever belonged to.
The reason a lot of people get jammed up and defensive when you start calling them out on participation is that far too many are doing far too much. We should be able to allow our members the ability to pick and choose the areas they like, but
we don't have the manpower for it. Any time a member has more then one staff job, that's a 100% fail for CAP, because
it means that either someone else is being denied the opportunity, or, more likely, there simply aren't enough people in
the unit to get things done.
If your unit has 90 members, there should be no issue with fully staffing it with single-threaded members.
You take a unit with only 15 members, 2/3rds tha are cadets (which is common), there's very little they can do but tread water.
And as soon as someone is sick (or sick of it), the whole thing collapses.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 09, 2013, 07:31:04 PM
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I'm the fix for what? Getting more people? I have almost 90 members. How many more do I need?
I meant "you" in the broader sense of the word. Is your unit hitting on all missions, and all cylinders? If so, it
may be one of the small number that is. Do you have a bunch of people who are content to sit quietly while a small number
do all the real work? Then you're here with the majority.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 09, 2013, 07:31:04 PM
Ok, so the fix is the unit commander then. I'm a bit confused with what you're trying to say.
Sure, but now we're back to the "more people" again. In my experience, the unit that have wek commanders
are in that situation because of a legacy of low numbers and little choice for leadership. In far too many cases,
the choice is "you, or we close". There's no transition plane, no progressive leadership, sometimes the handover
is an email. Hardly the way to run a paramilitary organization. Generally the only way to fix these units
is by breaking the internal cycle and bringing in someone from the outside with the knowledge and experience to
make the choices needed for success and growth, without being bound by emotional ties to those who failed before.
Likewise, the units I've seen that are successful, have more then one person who could legitimately stand up for
commander, probably working in transition and concert with the current CC for a fair amount of time, and when
Jack gets the job, he's not so bent that he quits and tries to form his own unit, etc., etc.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2013, 07:53:42 PMYes, members can, the organization cannot, and commanders should not have the option.
Then establish the numbers! You say that the "organization" cannot....but our organization has a national level, regional level, wing, group, squadron and even flight level.............at which point are we "the organization"
You can expect a minimum squadron (3 SM and 7 cadets) to do CP, AE and ES......it is just impossible.
Nor should you be impling that squadrons who choose to specialize are NOT doing their part.
QuoteAs a commander you have a mandate to accomplish the whole mission, not just the parts you personally like or think are important. So to that end, you find the people within your unit to fill as much of the mandate as possible, and then you lead others to working on things which aren't as much "fun", or recruit new members to fill those roles.
I would like to see that "mandate".....I have to call BS on it.....if so....why are there three types of squadrons. CAP accepts that there are squadrons that will just do ES and squadrons that will just do CP and some that will do a little both......and of course we always just play lip service to AE.
Quote"No one wants to do it." Is not an acceptable answer for why a unit isn't doing "x".
Really? So.....what are my squadrons ES responsibilities? I need actual numbers here....because "you have to do ES" is no specific enough for me to man, train and equip my squadron to perform assigned missions.
This is a cart and horse issue again. I agree no squadron should be able to opt out of assigned missions.....but we have to be ASSIGNED those missions in the first place with production goals up front!
The rest of your post is more of the same........Yes in an idea world what you suppose is true......but CAP at the national/region/wing/group level is where this needs to come from. And attacking individuals or individual squadrons for opting out or not doing enough is not the issue. Just saying we need more people is not enough. How many more? Doing What?
When CAP produces a UMD (Unit Manning Document) for a CAP squadron with specific position numbers.....then we would be cooking with gas. Until then you complaining that squadrons are dropping the ball is not just bouncing off our "well we are doing the best we can".
Quote from: lordmonar on May 09, 2013, 08:27:37 PMYou can expect a minimum squadron (3 SM and 7 cadets) to do CP, AE and ES......it is just impossible.
I agree, they can't. Therefore, more people.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 09, 2013, 08:27:37 PM
Nor should you be impling that squadrons who choose to specialize are NOT doing their part.
Since no "part" has been defined, then mandate is the full mission. Allowing units to self-actualize is the reason we're in the straight we are.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 09, 2013, 08:27:37 PM
I would like to see that "mandate".....I have to call BS on it.....if so....why are there three types of squadrons. CAP accepts that there are squadrons that will just do ES and squadrons that will just do CP and some that will do a little both......and of course we always just play lip service to AE.
Per CAPR 20-1, Jan 2013
They shall:
Establish plans, policies, and procedures necessary to the fulfillment of the CAP mission[/u], Note, there is no distinction that some of the mission is "optional". The mission is all three props.
I agree 100% AE is lip service, and needs to be absorbed into the CP, as the vast majority of it is aimed at, or for cadets.
The amount of external we do approaches zero and could be accomplished without it being a separate "mission".
I also agree the numbers and mandates should be part of a framework that comes from national, through region. The lack of
that is a serious lack of leadership.
With that said, I fail to see how a new CC walking in the door feels comfortable saying "we don't do that", except, again, for the
lack of leadership all the way down.
Absent the direction of higher HQ, you always fallback to the regs, and the reg says "the" mission, not "a" mission.
I think lordmonar makes an excellent point. My current unit is a composite squadron with strong manning. We have a building with classroom, offices, telephones, computers, wifi, etc. We also have a corporate van and aircraft. We have qualified aircrews, ground teams and mission base personnel. We also have a strong cadet and AE program. With our current numbers, there's a lot we can do in all CAP missions.
I know of another unit in my group that doesn't have the infrastructure that we have. They don't have a plane or van. They are active, but can't do everything we can. Furthermore, I've been in units that had even less resources. I was in a cadet squadron once where we only had 3-4 senior members. We had a strong CP, and tried to participate in ES as much as possible, but we just didn't have the resources, including qualified personnel, to do more.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 09, 2013, 08:53:25 PMI know of another unit in my group that doesn't have the infrastructure that we have. They don't have a plane or van. They are active, but can't do everything we can. Furthermore, I've been in units that had even less resources. I was in a cadet squadron once where we only had 3-4 senior members. We had a strong CP, and tried to participate in ES as much as possible, but we just didn't have the resources, including qualified personnel, to do more.
Right, and that is all fixed with more people.
Saying "we can't do it because we don't have the people" simply isn't acceptable, because there are plenty out there, and if
there really aren't, then the unit is in the wrong place.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 09, 2013, 09:03:10 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 09, 2013, 08:53:25 PMI know of another unit in my group that doesn't have the infrastructure that we have. They don't have a plane or van. They are active, but can't do everything we can. Furthermore, I've been in units that had even less resources. I was in a cadet squadron once where we only had 3-4 senior members. We had a strong CP, and tried to participate in ES as much as possible, but we just didn't have the resources, including qualified personnel, to do more.
Right, and that is all fixed with more people.
Saying "we can't do it because we don't have the people" simply isn't acceptable, because there are plenty out there, and if
there really aren't, then the unit is in the wrong place.
Not that I disagree that we need more people, but how is more people going to get you an aircraft, van, building, etc.? Even if you recruit more people, how are you going to train them without the necessary resources? I would argue that more than more people, we need more money.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 09, 2013, 09:46:17 PMNot that I disagree that we need more people, but how is more people going to get you an aircraft, van, building, etc.? Even if you recruit more people, how are you going to train them without the necessary resources? I would argue that more than more people, we need more money.
More people = more time to perform the mission, make relationships, and do all the things that need to be done, including fundraising, to support
the additional needs. It gives you time to think outside the boc, be creative in your activities and other tasks, and generally not feel put-upon to do "everything".
It means SUI's are a matter of course, not final exams, it means press releases about the Pancake Breakfast and Open House actually get sent, it means
the websites are updated ad aren't still announcing "Y2K preparations".
It means occasionally the members can actually do something fun , without thinking they are leaving some drudgery undone.
Airplanes are pretty easy to get if you have pilots who will fly them and cadets who need O-Rides, so are vans and other resources, which go where
the activity is, and which aren't in as short a supply as people think.
The trick is that you don't ask for the plane in anticipation of new people, you get the new people, make the effort to get them flying and otherwise
active, and then you use those numbers to justify the requests. The problem is the first-year hump, which is a brute-force effort.
You'll have to work harder at getting people in the air, trained, and otherwise engaged, because your resources will be farther then you'd like.
Once you're past that first year, things get considerably easier, and tend to grow geometrically.
An active, engaged unit, firing on all cylinders (or at least trying to), is never going to have issues with resources or people, because they will be seen as a benefit to their
community and will not be a secret, internally or externally.
Resources scale, people and the calendar do not, so the only way to do more, is get more people.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 09, 2013, 08:53:25 PM
I think lordmonar makes an excellent point. My current unit is a composite squadron with strong manning. We have a building with classroom, offices, telephones, computers, wifi, etc. We also have a corporate van and aircraft. We have qualified aircrews, ground teams and mission base personnel. We also have a strong cadet and AE program. With our current numbers, there's a lot we can do in all CAP missions.
Question for you (and no attitude intended with this): have you ever been in a small squadron yourself? I've only been in units that are more like Eclipse mentions: smaller with people wearing several hats doing lots of work. My experience in CAP has been vastly different from what you describe, and frankly, I'm jealous. I'd really love to be part of a unit where I only have one DA instead of the 3+1 Group assignments I have now.
Kinda' funny and typical for CT, I had to go back and re-read the previous 5 pages on this thread to remember how we got from donating blood and the lifesaving ribbon all the way to recruiting and unit manning.
Eclipse, I'm with you......but I am talking about specific mission tasking.
By invoking 20-1 you are talking about every squadron being 100+/- members.
Each squadron would have to be able to:
Man a full mission base.....but for how long? (let's use 72 hours as a base line)
That's a minimum of:
2 IC's
2 OSC
2 PSC
2 FSC
2 LSC
2 CULs
2 AOBD
2 GBD
2 Mission Chaplains
2 Mission Safety Officers
2 Mission PAO
2 GTLs
6-10 GTMs
2-4 MPs
2-4 MOs
2-4 MSs
4 MRO's
10-20 MSAs
4 FLM
2 FLS
That's 76 people just do the actual ES mission.....and that assumes you get everyone to respond to the mission......to ensure that your squadron could fulfill this mission you would need to have three or four times that many people. This only allows you to sortie two aircraft and two ground teams.
Now add the squadron infrastructure......
Commander
Safety
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Chaplain
PAO
Logistics
Transport
Communications
Operations
ES
ES-training
Professional Development
Administration
Personnel
Aerospace education
There are 16 positions listed in 20-1.....and some of them have second layers and most should have at least one assistant.
According to the member ship vs unit numbers listed in Wikipedia the average number of seniors per squadron is only 21.
Now.....yes "more members" is a solution to the problem.....but it must be done intelligently.
Wings should be telling their squadrons what specialties they should be producing for their ES requirements.
Squadrons should be told how much AE they need to be doing....how many cadets they should be servicing.
Roles and responsibilities should be clearly defined (ES officers should be coordinating with county, local and state EMS services....does that mean each squadron in a county should be calling the county EMS office?...they state EMS office?)
So.....I'm all for metrics and for squadrons being bigger....and using metrics to manage them...but we have to do it top down.
20-1 is primarily a suggestion, not a prescription, and saying that by accepting the first sentence you have to accept your laundry list is
a mischaracterizaiton at best.
I would further this conversation that it is not a requirement that every commander be able to man every position for a sustained period,
that isn't reasonable, but I would say that every commander is mandated to work towards his unit participating in a meaningful way
in all three missions, and certainly isn't empowered to simply say "we don't do that" because they aren't interested.
What the term "meaningful" entails then comes from higher HQ. I've been pounding the table in my wing for 10 years that we need
more formalized frameworks and expectations.
Define the mission (beyond the pamphlet)
Define the capabilities.
Define the customers.
Define the scope.
Divide the resource requirements needed to fulfill the scope among the units.
Adjust as necessary and continue the process as you grow.
As you have pointed out, that simply doesn't happen, so everyone, from the top-down, self initiates and self actualizes, then we all wonder
why nothing gets done. "Because I felt like it..." is no way to run a national organization, especially one which aspires to save lives and build leaders.
What we have today is a culture of status quo. Inconsistently trained leaders doing their best just to keep the doors open, with no
mandate to do anything more. The occasional, coincidental or random success and isolated activities keep people's batteries charged enough to maintain,
but nothing will change until something disruptive is force on the organization as a whole, or at least on the scale of a region.
So we agree......we should not be criticizing units for opting out of missions....until NHQ through the wings provide us with these mission goals.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 10, 2013, 04:08:54 AM
So we agree......we should not be criticizing units for opting out of missions....until NHQ through the wings provide us with these mission goals.
That's not what I said.
Like all things CAP, absent higher HQ clarification or direction, everything falls back to the regs, and the regs are clear the mission is not a menu.
If you aren't clear on the
general expectations in the
average unit in the
average wing in CAP, you probably shouldn't be a Unit CC.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 10, 2013, 04:27:40 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 10, 2013, 04:08:54 AM
So we agree......we should not be criticizing units for opting out of missions....until NHQ through the wings provide us with these mission goals.
That's not what I said.
Like all things CAP, absent higher HQ clarification or direction, everything falls back to the regs, and the regs are clear the mission is not a menu.
If you aren't clear on the general expectations in the average unit in the average wing in CAP, you probably shouldn't be a Unit CC.
I guess we have to agree to disagree then.
I would also suggest that again......you can't criticize squadron commanders for not doing their jobs.....when national, region, wing and group are not doing their jobs.
Quote from: Walkman on May 10, 2013, 02:51:13 AM
Question for you (and no attitude intended with this): have you ever been in a small squadron yourself? I've only been in units that are more like Eclipse mentions: smaller with people wearing several hats doing lots of work. My experience in CAP has been vastly different from what you describe, and frankly, I'm jealous. I'd really love to be part of a unit where I only have one DA instead of the 3+1 Group assignments I have now.
I have. I used to be in a cadet squadron that only had 3-4 senior members. Everyone had multiple jobs and we had to rely heavily on our cadet staff for many squadron functions. I was also in a small senior squadron once. Even my current squadron has had its share of turn over. Last year we lost several experienced members, which created some challenges for us. It took us almost a year to get back to where we used to be. I'm just now starting to pass on to others some of the jobs I've been doing over the last year.
Quote from: Walkman on May 10, 2013, 02:51:13 AM
Kinda' funny and typical for CT, I had to go back and re-read the previous 5 pages on this thread to remember how we got from donating blood and the lifesaving ribbon all the way to recruiting and unit manning.
Agree. What were we talking about again? ;D
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 09, 2013, 11:40:29 AM
Travel shouldnt take more 8 hours from Illionis to New Jersey/New York area. More like 3 days then. 2 days of Volunteering, then travel day. I did not calculate Travel that much. So Friday night leave, Volunteer Sat and Sun, Drive Back Monday?
OK but who is running the show on Monday? Do we shut down the mission?
Just like the Fosset mission that involved CAWG, NVWG, PCR and NHQ. You can bring in teams for shorter periods but they have to be managed. Lets look at just the GTs. Mon thru Fri lets say you have two GTL and six GTMs. You can run two GT. On Saturday you have 12 GTL and 40 GTMs. We likely do not need twelve different Ground Teams. Same with air resources, we only have six planes but we have 20 MP, 30 MO and 40 MS have volunteered for Saturday. What about Monday
Quote from: Private Investigator on May 11, 2013, 04:08:20 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on May 09, 2013, 11:40:29 AM
Travel shouldnt take more 8 hours from Illionis to New Jersey/New York area. More like 3 days then. 2 days of Volunteering, then travel day. I did not calculate Travel that much. So Friday night leave, Volunteer Sat and Sun, Drive Back Monday?
OK but who is running the show on Monday? Do we shut down the mission?
Just like the Fosset mission that involved CAWG, NVWG, PCR and NHQ. You can bring in teams for shorter periods but they have to be managed. Lets look at just the GTs. Mon thru Fri lets say you have two GTL and six GTMs. You can run two GT. On Saturday you have 12 GTL and 40 GTMs. We likely do not need twelve different Ground Teams. Same with air resources, we only have six planes but we have 20 MP, 30 MO and 40 MS have volunteered for Saturday. What about Monday
I don't know, lol. Im not a Ground Branch Director or Air Branch Director. Good Points you make.