http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2016/01/12/federal-appeals-court-tosses-stolen-valor-conviction/78685600/ (http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2016/01/12/federal-appeals-court-tosses-stolen-valor-conviction/78685600/)
Thoughts?
Supreme Court has already ruled that wearing medals/uniforms not earned is "free speech" as long as you are not attempting fraud or trying to use them for gain. It is what it is.
I wonder is any of the Justices have ever served???? How could you wear medals that you haven't earned with out attempting/committing fraud?? Does personal ego glorification count as "gain"?
Through their efforts to "Be Somebody" they bring down those who have earned these awards
Disagree. Some yahoo trying to be all that does nothing to lessen my accomplishments.
And fraud requires finial gain of some type.
Really I agree with the justices. We can just expose these dirtbags and move on. No need to need to spend money trying and jailing these guys.
Quote from: MSG Mac on January 13, 2016, 06:05:56 PM
Through their efforts to "Be Somebody" they bring down those who have earned these awards
Not really. The actions of those that earned the awards are in no way lessened by some barstool ranger. Just because some insecure loser wants to make himself feel better by awarding himself the Congressional Medal of Honor for service in Korea even though he was in high school at the time doesn't make me feel less about SFC Nelson V. Brittin...
Every profession sees this. I read an article last week about some guy who has been arrested multiple times for pretending he was a mass transit driver. You hear frequently about people that play "Let's be cops". People fake their way into professions all the time. Military service is just more visible than most and attractive...
I think intent is really what it boils down to. If I wear medals or claim decorations and qualifications that I haven't earn to defraud others, then I don't see how that can be considered freedom of speech. It's like some one dressing up as a policeman so others think he's a law enforcement officer, versus some one dressing up as a policeman for a Halloween party. There is a big difference.
Quote from: AirAux on January 13, 2016, 05:51:02 PM
I wonder is any of the Justices have ever served???? How could you wear medals that you haven't earned with out attempting/committing fraud?? Does personal ego glorification count as "gain"?
Would it make a difference if they had? Methinks not.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on January 13, 2016, 06:31:08 PM
I think intent is really what it boils down to. If I wear medals or claim decorations and qualifications that I haven't earn to defraud others, then I don't see how that can be considered freedom of speech. It's like some one dressing up as a policeman so others think he's a law enforcement officer, versus some one dressing up as a policeman for a Halloween party. There is a big difference.
And that has already been established. Want to pin a bunch of stuff to the over blouse you picked up at Raoul's Army Navy? Have a ball. Want to wear that get up into a job interview and have the grapes to ask for preference because you're a retired corporal-captain that fought in Desert Nam? That's where the ruling of the supremes comes into play.
I read the article and I believe this applies to one case of Stolen Valor where an individual was wearing a purple heart while testifying. I think a person can still be prosecuted if they receive something of value because they are wearing military awards not earned. In this case, there appears to be nothing of quantifiable value received for the [deleted] behavior.
Edit. Sorry. Didn't think the word I used was prohibited.
Sure fraud is still fraud. But just wearing an unearned medal is not in and of itself a crime.
IIRC, there was a Navy Admiral (what other kind would there be?) that was wearing some ribbons he hadn't been awarded and when it was discovered, he committed suicide. At the end, an honorable gesture...
Quote from: AirAux on January 13, 2016, 08:44:06 PM
IIRC, there was a Navy Admiral (what other kind would there be?) that was wearing some ribbons he hadn't been awarded and when it was discovered, he committed suicide. At the end, an honorable gesture...
Could be a Coast Guard admiral.
You're referring to CNO Jeremy "Mike" Boorda.
That was actually a case of poor documentation. One place said yes, another said no.
Quote from: SarDragon on January 13, 2016, 09:12:19 PM
That was actually a case of poor documentation. One place said yes, another said no.
A Z-Gram requested by SECNAV during the investigation apparently didn't count. Either way, the "best ship handler in the Navy" made his own decision of what the outcome would be.
Boorda may -- or may not -- have worn the Valor divices correctly: his former commanding odfficer said he was entitled to them, while the Board for Correction of Naval Records said he was not entitled to wear them. Such a tragic story. (See Wikipedia for various citations.)
Z-gram? Those ended with Zumwalt's tenure.
Quote from: SarDragon on January 13, 2016, 09:19:04 PM
Z-gram? Those ended with Zumwalt's tenure.
Indeed they did, but the Secretary requested the Zumwalt get something in writing NOW to justify Boorda wearing the Vs. If he had put it in writing in the first place, as opposed to giving a verbal that their wear was okay, this might have turned out differently.
Quote from: AirAux on January 13, 2016, 08:44:06 PM
IIRC, there was a Navy Admiral (what other kind would there be?) that was wearing some ribbons he hadn't been awarded and when it was discovered, he committed suicide. At the end, an honorable gesture...
I don't see how someone committing suicide after being discovered doing something wrong is "an honorable gesture". It seems to me that if the person is innocent, then they should fight to prove it. And if they're guilty, they they should take the punishment and move on. That's the honorable thing to do in my opinion.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on January 13, 2016, 09:23:04 PM
Quote from: AirAux on January 13, 2016, 08:44:06 PM
IIRC, there was a Navy Admiral (what other kind would there be?) that was wearing some ribbons he hadn't been awarded and when it was discovered, he committed suicide. At the end, an honorable gesture...
I don't see how someone committing suicide after being discovered doing something wrong is "an honorable gesture". It seems to me that if the person is innocent, then they should fight to prove it. And if they're guilty, they they should take the punishment and move on. That's the honorable thing to do in my opinion.
The suicide notes (two apparently) have not been made public; the only information is that they related to the media investigation and the public perception of the Navy. It cannot be said now what he thought about his wearing the V devices.
Nevertheless, Adm. Zumwalt said that his own intention had been to award the devices, so their wear at the time was at worst ambiguous. The Naval Decorations determination is as much a comment on the verbal nature of the award as it is on Adm. Boorda's wearing the devices (and one might guess that there are plenty of other devices still being improperly worn based on the now-determined improper transmittal of the authorization).
Nobody can say that he was aware he was doing anything wrong or that he believed what he was doing was even in a gray area. It can be said that he should have known better. It may be that he did at some point -- sooner or later -- know better, but even that remains unclear. Perhaps he began wearing them in good faith, subsequently learned they were "technically" unauthorizad, did not want to make a spectacle by taking them off, and then felt trapped by the media attention, but we will never know. I remember this as it happened, and it played-out very badly for him at the time.
S.
I think it's too bad. I mean, we need to put posers like this in jail! How dare he insinuate that not only did he go to Ranger School, but that he earned a CIB, Purple Heart, AND a Silver Star! The NERVE!
(http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt26/avlack/a1fa99d527b0a0e5e48cb0a2e86b75aa_zps3a1edsdr.jpg)
Two Silver Stars....I miss those uniforms.
Wait, what? Aren't most of us Admirals in the Navy of the Great State of Nebraska?? I think I recall having such a paper somewhere...
Quote from: AirAux on January 13, 2016, 08:44:06 PM
IIRC, there was a Navy Admiral (what other kind would there be?) that was wearing some ribbons he hadn't been awarded and when it was discovered, he committed suicide. At the end, an honorable gesture...
You might consider limiting your comments to subjects that you know something about. Boorda, a case of stolen valor? Honorable gesture? I would like to show you a certain gesture for such a thoughtless and insensitive post.
Quote from: Damron on January 14, 2016, 07:20:01 PM
Quote from: AirAux on January 13, 2016, 08:44:06 PM
IIRC, there was a Navy Admiral (what other kind would there be?) that was wearing some ribbons he hadn't been awarded and when it was discovered, he committed suicide. At the end, an honorable gesture...
You might consider limiting your comments to subjects that you know something about. Boorda, a case of stolen valor? Honorable gesture? I would like to show you a certain gesture for such a thoughtless and insensitive post.
You sure you want to open with that? Try reading the whole thread before you make asinine comments. Where is PACE?
Quote from: docsteve on January 14, 2016, 01:21:02 PM
Nobody can say that he was aware he was doing anything wrong or that he believed what he was doing was even in a gray area. It can be said that he should have known better. It may be that he did at some point -- sooner or later -- know better, but even that remains unclear. Perhaps he began wearing them in good faith, subsequently learned they were "technically" unauthorizad, did not want to make a spectacle by taking them off, and then felt trapped by the media attention, but we will never know. I remember this as it happened, and it played-out very badly for him at the time.
From your comments, it doesn't appear that you remember the chronology. It was brought to Boorda's attention that he may not be entitled to wear the device. He didn't put up a fight or cite why a number of officers thought they were entitled to wear it. Instead, he stopped wearing it. Nobody noticed, or cared.
A couple of years later, David Hackworth brought it to public attention...without describing the circumstances by which Boorda and other officers thought they were entitled to wear the device.
Quote from: THRAWN on January 14, 2016, 07:33:28 PM
Quote from: Damron on January 14, 2016, 07:20:01 PM
Quote from: AirAux on January 13, 2016, 08:44:06 PM
IIRC, there was a Navy Admiral (what other kind would there be?) that was wearing some ribbons he hadn't been awarded and when it was discovered, he committed suicide. At the end, an honorable gesture...
You might consider limiting your comments to subjects that you know something about. Boorda, a case of stolen valor? Honorable gesture? I would like to show you a certain gesture for such a thoughtless and insensitive post.
You sure you want to open with that? Try reading the whole thread before you make asinine comments. Where is PACE?
Yeah, that's what I want to open with. Is indecisiveness a problem that plagues you?
What does the rest of the thread have to do with the post I responded to?
Asinine? Why don't you consider the level of respect paid towards a deceased and highly decorated Vietnam vet? Think about that post while considering that Boorda's peers, sailors, friends, or family might be reading this public forum.
Quote from: Damron on January 14, 2016, 07:47:58 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on January 14, 2016, 07:33:28 PM
Quote from: Damron on January 14, 2016, 07:20:01 PM
Quote from: AirAux on January 13, 2016, 08:44:06 PM
IIRC, there was a Navy Admiral (what other kind would there be?) that was wearing some ribbons he hadn't been awarded and when it was discovered, he committed suicide. At the end, an honorable gesture...
You might consider limiting your comments to subjects that you know something about. Boorda, a case of stolen valor? Honorable gesture? I would like to show you a certain gesture for such a thoughtless and insensitive post.
You sure you want to open with that? Try reading the whole thread before you make asinine comments. Where is PACE?
Yeah, that's what I want to open with. Is indecisiveness a problem that plagues you?
What does the rest of the thread have to do with the post I responded to?
Asinine? Why don't you consider the level of respect paid towards a deceased and highly decorated Vietnam vet? Think about that post while considering that Boorda's peers, sailors, friends, or family might be reading this public forum.
Nice personal attack. What are you so angry about? Read the thread where these concerns were discussed and for the record it's ADMIRAL Boorda.
Quote from: THRAWN on January 14, 2016, 07:50:15 PM
Quote from: Damron on January 14, 2016, 07:47:58 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on January 14, 2016, 07:33:28 PM
Quote from: Damron on January 14, 2016, 07:20:01 PM
Quote from: AirAux on January 13, 2016, 08:44:06 PM
IIRC, there was a Navy Admiral (what other kind would there be?) that was wearing some ribbons he hadn't been awarded and when it was discovered, he committed suicide. At the end, an honorable gesture...
You might consider limiting your comments to subjects that you know something about. Boorda, a case of stolen valor? Honorable gesture? I would like to show you a certain gesture for such a thoughtless and insensitive post.
You sure you want to open with that? Try reading the whole thread before you make asinine comments. Where is PACE?
Yeah, that's what I want to open with. Is indecisiveness a problem that plagues you?
What does the rest of the thread have to do with the post I responded to?
Asinine? Why don't you consider the level of respect paid towards a deceased and highly decorated Vietnam vet? Think about that post while considering that Boorda's peers, sailors, friends, or family might be reading this public forum.
Nice personal attack. What are you so angry about? Read the thread where these concerns were discussed and for the record it's ADMIRAL Boorda.
Personal attack? No.
I responded to a post that categorized Boorda's suicide as honorable. I took nothing out of context and the rest of the thread mitigates nothing from the thoughtless, disrespectful, and ignorant post that suggested the Boorda case was just another example of stolen valor.
Seriously? Not even a week. Ok. These are not the droids you are looking for. Everyone just move along. Get back on topic: implications of the SCOTUS ruling.
BREATH everyone......
Can we let the dead rest in peace and talk about something relevant to the topic? Please?
Quote from: Pace on January 14, 2016, 08:08:21 PM
Get back on topic: implications of the SCOTUS ruling.
TBH, I don't see much in terms of implications. Society is getting a bit better about demanding documents when people start talking about their SF/Ranger/Airborne/medals/etc. as soon as people start bragging about it.
Correction: can we get back to the OP, whatever the intention was.
Here's the text of the ruling. Good read, if you can get past the legalese:
http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/01/11/11-35796.pdf (http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/01/11/11-35796.pdf)
When I served in Vietnam, It was the rule that the V awarded and all NavComms, NAM's, Bronze stars, and even the Legion of Merit, if earned in country came with the V device.
"You might consider limiting your comments to subjects that you know something about. Boorda, a case of stolen valor? Honorable gesture? I would like to show you a certain gesture for such a thoughtless and insensitive post." Yeah, great example of leadership to take the easy way out?? I am sure your gesture would reveal more about you than me.
Let go of your anger. It is the path to the dark side.
Warning #2. Anyone want to guess what happens at warning #3?
We get to sit in the Penalty Box?
Close, very close
You have to deliver 120 Liters of Prop Wash to NHQ before you can post again?
ON topic, I've now read the full story and opinion.
While this was reversed, the genius in question did some extra silly things like apperantly forging a DD-214. :o
He may not be punished for wearing medals not earned, but he certainly was for that one.
But only if you hop from grid square to grid square on one foot...
^^^ You are put in charge of all Cadet Over night Activities for a year and have to take all calls from the mother of Cadet Mommy's Precious Snowflake for 2 years or until you figure out how to 2b the little........
On topic. I am really upset by this ruling. It feels as if the Court has no respect for the Decorations or to the men and women that have earned them.
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on January 14, 2016, 09:31:35 PM
On topic. I am really upset by this ruling. It feels as if the Court has no respect for the Decorations or to the men and women that have earned them.
That's where you are misreading this. They're saying that you can't phony up for personal gain. Wanna wear grandpa's Spanish American War medals and say that San Juan Hill isn't over? Do it, but don't try to scam a free cuppa from Starbucks or use it to get a woman to date you. John Lennon used to wear a utility shirt with the 2ID SSI on it. Did that take away from the prestige of the division?
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on January 14, 2016, 09:31:35 PM
On topic. I am really upset by this ruling. It feels as if the Court has no respect for the Decorations or to the men and women that have earned them.
Think of it this way... It isn't that they disrespect those things... it is that they respect the Constitution (that our soldiers have sworn to defend) at a higher level than the decorations in question.
Our judges have a healthy respect of the law, the people who serve it, and the people whom the law is supposed to serve. Unfortunately, this is a case of a well intentioned law that went too far. A law which they mention was amended by congress, but this guy was convicted under the old law, so the old law had to be tried in court.
My personal opinion is that those who fought and won will out the ones that pretended to charge to Baghdad, and take care of it from there. For the rest of us...well, as long as we don't look like this feller, I think we're OK.
http://thisainthell.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/photo-2cropped.jpg (http://thisainthell.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/photo-2cropped.jpg)
It's good to be king. Public threats of discipline? Interesting and classy approach.
Would our friend be comfortable sending a letter to Boorda's two kids and three grandkids, all of which served in the armed forces, suggesting that their father's suicide was honorable? I can provide an address to our friend.
Words have consequences. I call somebody out for their inaccurate, insensitive, and disrespectful post and I'm the bull in the china shop?
Carry on.
Quote from: Damron on January 15, 2016, 02:12:30 AM
It's good to be king. Public threats of discipline? Interesting and classy approach.
Would our friend be comfortable sending a letter to Boorda's two kids and three grandkids, all of which served in the armed forces, suggesting that their father's suicide was honorable? I can provide an address to our friend.
Words have consequences. I call somebody out for their inaccurate, insensitive, and disrespectful post and I'm the bull in the china shop?
Carry on.
Admiral Boorda.
Yes, I know his rank. He was a family friend.